Work-Life Balance

[00:00:02] Speaker A: Welcome to Gay Men Going Deeper, a podcast series by the Gay Men's Brotherhood where we talk about personal development, mental health and sexuality. We are your hosts. Michael Diorio is a life and wellness coach specializing in sexuality, relationships and self confidence. Reno Johnson is a spiritual life, love and business coach. And I'm Matt Lansdell, an intuitive life and spiritual coach and counselor specializing in healing and empowerment. We each have our own coaching practice, but in this podcast we are sharing all of our best stuff with you guys. So today we are talking about work Life Balance and boy do I have a lot of things to share on this topic and not my best asset, but I'm going to share what I've learned today on my struggles with with trying to do this. So we're going to be talking about the three. We have three questions that we're going to be unpacking. How have you experienced burnout in your life and what unhealthy habits of yours contributed to that burnout? What does balance mean to you and what boundaries do you put in place to ensure a work life balance? And we'll continue these discussions on the last Thursday of every month in the Gaiman's Brotherhood Zoom Hangout where you'll have a chance to share your own experiences. Please remember that this podcast and YouTube channel are listener and viewer supported. If you enjoy what we are creating, you can support us by making a donation to the show using the link in the show notes. You can also subscribe to the Early Access option on Apple Podcast, Listen ad free and gain early access to Episodes. All your support helps us to continue making content for you and supporting our community. And we do thank you in advance. Lastly, if you're looking to accelerate your personal development journey, check out our new coaching collection because it's not really new anymore. Check out our Coaching collection. Learn how to heal and empower yourself. Learn at your own pace by getting instant access to 45/ premiums personal development coaching videos created by us as well as our Healing youg Shame and Building Better Relationships courses. And you can head over to gamingdeeper.com for more information on that. All right, Work Life Balance so what is Work Life Balance? It's pretty pretty self explanatory, but I think it's more layered than people might think. So you know, look at some definitions would be having a harmonious relationship between your work life and your personal life. That seems to be the most standard definition. Managing your time and energy and prioritizing self care, which takes having boundaries. So work life balance really is our relationship with our boundaries, our relationship, with our needs. It's an act of self respect. So we look and we're looking really at input versus output. Right. If you're somebody that has a, a lot of responsibility in your work life, there's a lot of output. How can you replenish the. Well, right. That's really what work life balance is here. And it's going to look differently for everybody depending on like if you are a CEO and you're working 60 hours a week, you know, work life balance might be a little different for you than somebody that has a bit more of a casual job. So one of the, the impacts of not having work life balance is burnout. I know this all too well. I've had a couple periods of burnout in my career and I've had to learn lots of boundaries and self care and things to deal with that. For some people, lack of work life balance can come from something like perfectionism or overachieving. And these could be mechanisms that we use to cope with shame. As gay men, if we have a foundation of shame, we grew up feeling toxic shame, we might use these protectors from having to feel our shame, which could be overachieving, perfectionism over compensation, and it could lead to burnout. Which is the story that I'll be sharing throughout this episode for myself. You know, when we're talking about work life balance, I think we're also talking about our relationship to worthiness, our relationship to our own value and honoring our needs. Right. If we are denying our needs or we are seeking worthiness outside of ourselves in our work, then there's a high likelihood of burnout. I think we come from a culture that teaches us that the more that we do, the more valuable we are. And there's a high and heavy emphasis on doingness and less on beingness. It's that, you know, going to the, the expressing our masculinity and the divine masculine energy. You know, if we have an imbalance in that we do, do, do, do do we. You know, our to do list is huge and we're doing more and more and more and suddenly we'll, we'll end up burning out. So we have to examine the cultural conditioning. You know, maybe looking at where this comes from. Why do we have this belief system around? The more we do, the more we hustle, the more worthy we are, right? Did our parents teach us that? Did our government teach us that? Did our school system teach us that? Is our work environment teaching us that? I know corporate, the corporate world can be very Much like that. It's like, you work 12 hours, you're a superstar, right? You're not taking care of yourself. You're a superstar. And you get really. You know, you get validated in that respect. So I think we're going to be talking today about the balance between beingness and doingness and incorporating that in. And then I want people to think about this because this is. You know, when I was thinking about the. This topic, what I was analyzing is my relationship to rest. And I want. I want everybody to think about that. What is your relationship to rest, which is one polarity. And what is your relationship to work? Right. Some people might be looking at this through the lens of they are a workaholic, so they need to. They need to change their relationship to rest. And then some people might be listening to this and they might be thinking, well, you know, I'm so lazy, I don't do anything. Maybe you're stuck in a depression. Right. And what's your relationship to work when you're feeling like that? Right. So there's two polarities, and what we're trying to do is create balance between these two polarities. So, yeah, that's my little monologue. Hopefully that opens up some. Some minds and hearts to this conversation, and we'll hop right in. So the first question is, how have you experienced burnout in your life and what unhealthy habits of yours contributed to this burnout? Let's go with Reno. [00:06:53] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. So last year, about six months into the year I was coaching and, you know, I had some things on the go, and I started noticing that I was feeling less energized, less amped up about my work and, you know, showing up for my clients and just producing, in general, any sort of output. I was like, I'm not into this right now. And one of the things that I had said is I. There was this sense that. And actually, I'll use the word performance as well, because there was this sense that I had lost my professional libido. And I tried to rationalize it and understand why that was happening. And it just became very clear to me that I needed to step back from everything that I was up to. And that was not an easy decision. And that decision required some courage as well, because, you know, I don't want to say unfortunately, but what I'll say is, like, we exist in a world that in some ways, in many ways, requires that we generate some sort of income in whatever way makes sense to us in order to be able to sustain ourselves. Unless you happen to be living off grid or in an ashram and volunteering or in some space that's set up so that you're not required to exchange money for. For livelihood, you know. And so I spent the good part of six months in this liminal space where I had no idea what was coming next. I had no more or less, I had no income coming in. And I found myself in kind of a depression, which was something that I don't know if I'd actually experienced before. Like, versions of it, flavors of it, but. But not. Not depression. Like, I had never. I'd never said, like, oh, I'm depressed before. This was the first time that I really had the sense that that's something I might be experiencing. And so I sat with all of that for quite a while, again, not knowing what was coming next. And. And then at some point as the year ended, and one thing I'll say is that I found myself in a bout of what I learned was called passive suicidation. And so there was no intent. There was no intent to. To act on. Was more just this feeling that I could just slip out and. And it would be easy and I would probably feel better and less burdened by societal and cultural and social demands, the demands of life, you know. And so I reached out to some people and I talked to them about it, and I just, you know, a few people I trusted wouldn't freak out if I shared this with them, because I was like, I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna, you know, kill myself. I just need to talk to somebody, right? And. And so I did. And that was really helpful. What happened next surprised me. And. And that is that I found myself in. In a town hall. And after a couple of meetings, I invited to email some people, and after a couple of meetings, I was offered a position as the executive director for an erotic school. I've since resigned from that role. But I find myself now, and you know, the last six months, more specifically now in this moment, in this space where creativity and energy and inspiration are pouring into me and pouring out of me. And I think were it not for that space and that time to just allow myself to be, like, without being productive, without performing. Because, you know, and then I'll. I'll wrap it up here. But there are people that talk about struggling with performance anxiety in the bedroom. And one of the things that I've learned about that occurrence is that there's a sort of disembodiment and there's a lot of thinking and a Lot of ideas about performance and producing and, and putting on and getting things right. And when we allow ourselves to let go of that and to just kind of be with what is and allow what's there to be there and meet the moment and meet and validate the experience we're having, it's like all of a sudden it starts to diminish and disintegrate and suddenly there's room for what's behind that to flow. And so I'm in that space in that season right now where it's finally starting to pour out of me again, you know, so that's just one of my experiences. And I've. I mean, I've experienced burnout and breakdown before. You know, that's just the most recent. But let what I shared be a testament to our capacity for resilience, you know? Yeah. [00:13:07] Speaker A: Thanks, Reno. That was great. [00:13:09] Speaker B: Thank you. [00:13:10] Speaker A: Yeah, relate to that. What about you, Michael? [00:13:14] Speaker C: Yeah, great topic. I'm really excited that we decided to do this. This topic. What's the topic of the month? Is it work of purpose? Yes, it's purpose. [00:13:23] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [00:13:24] Speaker C: So this kind of goes off of the heels of our finding your purpose episode. So, yeah, I'm really excited that we decided to do this. We haven't talked about this in all of our episodes. It's nice to kind of go into this. So I guess I want to start with Matt. You had talked about, you know, relish relationship with work and relationship with rest. I like that. I like the way you kind of put that out there. So my relationship with work previously, and I think a lot of people can relate to this, is that it was something that you did for 40 hours a week to get paid to do things and live your life and pay your mortgage and pay your bills. You do it every day until you're 65 and then you can finally stop and you can retire and then you can enjoy life. That's the way that my, my, that was brought up. That's how my, my grandparents and parents worked and everyone in my family. So it's like this, like, oh, thing you have to do. [00:14:16] Speaker A: Cool. [00:14:18] Speaker C: So I equated it with 40 hour work, weeks long commutes, annoying bosses doing things I didn't really want to do for a company that I didn't really care too much about and they certainly didn't care about me. But I got paid and I got to buy things, nice things, and do good stuff. So excuse me. It was all worth it. But then along my journey, so I worked in the corporate world for about 13 years. I think I've told everyone that here, right? So I shit on it a lot. But I will say for the first 10 years, I actually liked it quite a bit. It was pretty good. I like the culture, like the people. I met, some of my best friends there. I learned a lot. It was only in that last little bit that it became really toxic. So I'll just preface with that. I'm not shooting all over it. And I'm sure there are some companies out there that are great and wonderful to work for. Mine didn't happen to be one of those. [00:15:05] Speaker A: So. [00:15:07] Speaker C: As we get older, we realize there's no guarantee for tomorrow. There's no guarantee you'll make it to 65. There's no guarantee that even once you do get to 65, that the world is going to be a place worth living, worth traveling, that you're going to be in good health, that you're going to have the things you want to have. So I remember I was. Let's see, how old was I? I was about 30, 31. And I was working at this company, and I was kind of climbing that ladder. I was. I was at the stage I was about to become a manager, and they were kind of dangling the carrot in the stick, as companies do. Oh, here's this promotion. You get to have more money. And I wanted it on one level from like, that competitive. Oh, I want to get this. I want this title. I want to be a manager. That's so cool. I was only, like 30 years old at the time. I would have been the youngest manager at the company at the time. And I really wanted that. I would just wanted that. Like, I wanted that title for myself for reasons we don't have to get into right now, but anyway. But also, I really wanted to travel. I wanted to see the world. And I had taken all my vacation. I remember this very well. I take it on my vacation. And the most we could take at a time was like, three weeks at that company. So I had taken my three weeks, and I was like, okay, well, that's not enough. I want more than that. I want, like, months. I want months at a time. And so I said, okay, well, I can. I can. I can. I've saved up. I've saved up enough money. I could do a unpaid sabbatical. So I go into my boss's office, vice president, and I'm like, okay, here's what I want to do. I want to take a sabbatical. I want to go here. I want to go to Thailand. I was all excited and she's like, that's career suicide. You're never going to get a manager position if you do that. I was like, what? [00:16:40] Speaker A: Why? [00:16:41] Speaker C: Like, how is this possible? Like, what's the difference? Like, I'm still, I'm still me. I still have the talent, I still got the work ethic, I still got stuff. In fact, I'll come back well rested and like, I'll hit the ground fucking running. Like, you should see what I'll be able to do once you give me a little bit of rest. So she's like, I can't deny you this because it's unpaid leave and my job will be there when I get back. But she's like, reputationally, it's career suicide. And I thought, well, I'd rather kill my career than kill my soul, which is what I would have done if I stayed. So I went, I went on this two month sabbatical, I went to Southeast Asia, was the best thing I've ever done. And then I came back and that was the moment I realized because at that time, this really stuberno. Because at that time I had kept not getting that promotion. They kept dangling, dangling it in front of me, but not happening. And I was like, well, fuck it, why am I here? Like the people me out of here. So it was at that stage of burnout, I was working really hard, kind of like you had said, mat, trying to impress. Like, yeah, look, I, I stayed until 7 last night and I was here at 7 today and like, look at me, look at me. Sending emails really late at night, like as if it was with this badge of honor of how busy I was. But eventually that, that kind of hit me and I was tired. I was not happy. That's that simple as that. So I did the sabbatical. When I came back, I was like, okay, that was kind of the beginning for me when I got to see, like, oh, wait a minute, I don't have to live this way. I don't have to have this relationship with work. So when I came back, I still, you know, was there for a few more years after that. But it really changed the way I saw things to a point eventually, a few years later when I actually left for good and became a entrepreneur. But we could talk a bit more about that later. So I guess that's. That was my first instance of burnout. And I will say now my, my relationship to work has completely changed. As an entrepreneur, doing something I love, that I'm very passionate about versus doing something that I Had to do to get paid for a company that really just cared about their bottom line and could give less than a. About me. Yeah. [00:18:44] Speaker A: That'S really powerful. That's a powerful quote. I'd rather kill my career than kill my soul. Yeah, that really hit home for me. That was such a beautiful, beautiful quote. [00:18:56] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, it was. It was a very awkward meeting because I did respect my boss very much and I think she was used to. I think anyone who can, who's been in corporate can relate to this. If you're a people pleaser, high achiever. They love us. They love us. People pleaser, high achievers in that world because they know we're going to give our all and we will burn ourselves out because we want those titles. We want. That's. We want that. We want to want. We want that. [00:19:17] Speaker A: Right. [00:19:17] Speaker C: And I think they know that on some level and they really do take advantage of those people the most. Again, speaking from my personal experience, but I have a feeling I'm not the only one out there. [00:19:27] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I have. I got two periods of burnout that I can share. One is recent and one is in the past. So I think I was 26 when I left government. The government. I was working with the government as a mental health and addictions counselor in the jail, actually. And I decided after two years of doing that role that I wanted to leave and start a private practice. And so I did. And you know, Mr. Optimistic rose colored glasses me. It was like, it's going to be thriving and I'll have all these clients, it'll be fantastic. And yeah, no, it wasn't like that at all. It was a grind, a really tough grind. And I wasn't making ends meet for the first year. And so I was working with my aunt, helping her with landscaping one day a week. And then on the weekends I was working 16 hour shifts both days. Okay, Saturday and Sunday at a group home setting and with very troubled children and youth, I should say. So I would start Monday, already burnt out and then I'd have the whole week that I'd have to operate, hustling, getting out, meeting people, put, you know, marketing. So I basically put myself into a nervous breakdown and had to go on medication for the first time of my life. It was hard. It was a really hard period for me. And I ended up leaving the profession of counseling and going into fitness and nutrition. And I moved cities. I moved to Vancouver. I also went through a really terrible breakup at that time from my long term relationship. I was with him for eight years and we lived together and stuff. So it was just like my world imploded, basically. And I think what I had learned was, yes, I was taking on too much, but I think I had. Well, they call it in. In counseling, they call it compassion fatigue, but I don't know if mine was compassion fatigue. I actually think it was empathy fatigue. And I see compassion as being with somebody. I see empathy as being in. You're in, right. And as an empath, I'm in. Like when I feel somebody, I'm. I'm in it with them. And I've had. I've spent most of my career learning separateness, energetic separateness, because I literally can feel like I merge with people. It's a really interesting thing. I. I've take. It's taken me a long time in my life to develop a sovereign sense of self, because my sense of self came very much from my world around me. Being empathic and being able to feel people, that became my external focus. And then adding having trauma, childhood trauma on top of that, I had hypervigilance. So I would. I had to be outside myself monitoring for, you know, the next episode, the next chaotic thing that was going to happen in my childhood. It was. So I, I learned to have almost like an external reference point. And I became highly attuned to other people's needs and very quickly unattuned to my own needs. And that was challenging, very challenging for me because not being attuned to my own needs, I'm not connected to my own body. I'm not connected to what's going on in my system, that I need to listen to it to be able to say, okay, I'm burnt out, I need rest. So I was very dissociated, very disconnected from myself. That's one side of my flavors. And then the other side of my flavors is really struggling with a lot of shame. And my two vehicles to getting away from my shame was perfectionism and overachievement. And there's one side to it that, yeah, I've achieved a lot in my life. I've. I'm a hustler and I. I've done a lot of good things career wise and. But I got away from listening, truly listening inward and, you know, being like, okay, am I doing this for me or am I doing this for other people? So I've been very outer centric out, like focusing on, you know, how are people going to respond to me, are people going to think I'm worthy and like that, that sort of thing. I got caught in that mentality, you know, and I think it's a form of codependency. It's looking at how my worth can come from within my relationships or how people perceive me, the mirror that they give back to me. So I would say that's my unhealthy habits that contributed to my burnout is really, you know, hyper focusing on the needs of others. And you know, I remember when I was younger, it's probably like eight or nine and my, my father left and my, my mom sat me down and I remember she said to me, she's like, you're now the man of the house. And I was she and she'd be like, you're my main man. That's what she would always call me. And I'm like a nine year old boy. You know, that's a big burden. That's some heavy energy to take on your shoulders. But I took it on and I wore it like a badge of hon honor. And in that moment I knew I'm like, okay, well it's no longer about me, right? It's like this weird, like I have to provide or I have to be there for, for you know, my mother and my sister. And so I really internalized this. And you know, it doesn't surprise me that I went into counseling and I went into serving people, which I do think it's my purpose, but some of it comes from my trauma, right. And, and so I have this really deep seated thing of not wanting to let people down and feeling like I always have to say yes and be there for people. It's this, you know, and in the last year I've been submitted by the universe into a pretty gnarly depression and lots of trauma healing and I haven't had capacity or bandwidth. So I've had to say no and I've had to be with the disappointing of disappointing people. And you know, that brings up a lot of stuff for me. It's like, because my worth came from being there for people and meeting other people's needs. So it's like when you can't do that because you've been submitted, you're not just sitting with the disappointment of, of, you know, disappointing others, you're sitting with the unworthiness. Because my drug, which, you know, codependence, their drug is people. My drug is, is, is no longer, you know, it's no longer hooked up. And so it's been challenging. And then, you know, to talk about my most recent episode of burnout is like I just went this whole year without holidays. Literally 365 days without holidays. And then finally, I took four weeks off, and I learned a really valuable lesson that I can't do this work without taking care of myself. And I thought I had learned that the last time, but it's interesting how this stuff is. It feels pathological for me almost, you know? So the first two weeks of my holidays, I just felt, like, kind of, like, KO'd, you know? And then I had two weeks of rest, and then I came back about 75% recharged. But so I have a new. I have a new system that I'm going to be operating with, which I'll talk about in the next question. But, yeah, I feel complete. I'll leave it there for now. All right. So what does balance mean to you, y'? [00:26:39] Speaker C: All? [00:26:39] Speaker B: This is so good. [00:26:40] Speaker A: I love this. [00:26:41] Speaker B: I'm obsessed with this conversation. What's that? [00:26:45] Speaker C: We say that every week. But it's so true. [00:26:47] Speaker B: No, for real. It's so fun. I. I can't say it enough. It's so much fun. And also, I wanted to say earlier, Matt, you, like, killed the opening of this. As you do. As you both do. Oh, my gosh. Balance. So I was thinking about, like. Like, who am I. Who am I being, and what am I up to when I'm balanced? So when I think of someone who's, like. Who's balanced, right? I think of someone who rests in, like. Who rests in and embodies spiritual security, right? Like, that is someone who. Who recognizes the sort of grace and support that I believe in my own experience is, like, ever present, you know? And proof of that is the fact that, like, I'm. I'm here right now, you know, beyond my thinking about, like, what I have and don't have, what I. What I want, think I want and don't want, like, I'm good, you know, in this. Just in this exact moment. I have everything I need in this moment, you know? And I am everything I need to be for this moment, you know? And I am supported. And, like, to me, that is, like, spiritual security. And to me, that supports me being balanced. Someone who is balanced is. Is someone who, like. And this is to kind of piggyback on what I just said, like, lives. Lives from the inside out, you know, They're a person who is present, who prioritizes presence. You know, They're a person who is grounded, connected, responsive. You know, they prioritize their time, their energy, their experience, their expression, their needs, right? This is someone who is balanced, someone who is Balanced is someone who says yes when they mean yes and no when they mean no, which can be really hard, you know, which can require courage and vulnerability. Because it, it's, it's. It's hard. And I know this firsthand. There's so many times where I'm like, why the fuck did I say yes to that? Like, I didn't actually want to go to that thing or I didn't actually want to do that. Like, I don't. Yeah. And. And I think a big part of it has to do with me just feeling insecure about, like, disappointing people or, you know, like, what if they don't like me? Or what if they don't invite me again? Or what if I have no friends? Or, you know, sometimes it's fear of boredom. You know, I just don't want to be bored. So I say yes to shit. And then I'm like, why am I here? I just want to be at home chilling in my sacred space and recharging, you know, and saying yes to something that's like, Like a full bodied yes. Like, fuck yeah. Let's go for a hike. I'm game, you know? [00:29:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:29:38] Speaker B: Balance to me is like, is. Is. Is. Is not giving from a deficit, but giving from overflow. And like, that's one I really struggled with because I watched the women in my life, bless their hearts, and actually some of the men too, to be honest, give from a deficit or try to give from a deficit and then burn out and resent and be manipulative in the ways that they attempted to sort of like, regain some energy and autonomy and resource, you know, and it was like. Well, like, what I saw was. And continue to grow into. I don't get this right all the time, but, you know, mine is to. Mine is to cultivate. Mine is to capture, like, like inspiration, prioritize my experience and like, capture abundance and energy and all of that. And then from an overflow, you know, to give that. That to me is like a balanced person. And then. And then I guess there are a few other things I would say to that, which is like, presence and sobriety. You know, I. I'm three months sober now, and that was as of yesterday. From alcohol. Yeah. And I'm really excited about that. And one of the things I noticed is that like, addiction's a motherfucker. And, and like, Matt, you were talking about codependency. There's alcohol, there's like, addiction to thought, there's addiction to work, there's addiction to technology, to food. I mean, I'm like, call me bold, but I would say that if you exist, like you're navigating some form of addiction, you know, subtle or like, explicit, blatant. And so for me, I've just started to see the benefit of sobriety because it gives way to presence and it gives way to balance. You know, eliminating distraction is another one. And I just think our addictions are distractions. You know, our addictions are distractions. And so I think a balanced person is actively and perhaps even fiercely engaged in, like. In, like, releasing and relinquishing distraction from their lives and again, prioritizing what is life giving and what is. What is most relevant and resonant, because what is most relevant and resonant is. Is most sacred, you know, and yeah, I think that's it. I think that's it. I'll, like, step down from my soapbox now, but I'm super passionate about this topic. I love it. [00:32:33] Speaker C: I can tell you're passionate, and I love it because you just inspired so much. And I like, yeah, I think everything you're saying is 100 true. And I would agree with you on that. I think it's going to resonate with a lot of people as well. And even my way, you're saying, I feel like I have so many ideas and I have to just like, constrain myself to focus on one right now because you guys both had on so many great things that I hadn't even considered. So again, it's another reason I love this podcast with you guys. Okay, so I guess what I want to share is a conversation I had with one of my really good friends. We just both turned 40 this year, so we went out for dinner, just the two of us. We've known each other for 20 years, so she is a C suite bigwig. She's the top of the food chain in her industry. And we were talking about, you know, life and love and business and things, the things we talk about. And we're talking about what will 40 years from now look like? [00:33:29] Speaker A: Right? [00:33:30] Speaker C: It's a question we love to ask. And she was. She said immediately, oh, yeah, I'm not working once. Once I make enough money, I'm done, finished. And I'm like, I would still be working. Like, I want to be 80 years old and 100% working for sure. Now, does that mean stressed? No. Does that mean working out of obligation? Absolutely not. Right? And. And it just spoke to kind of her. Her world versus my world. Now, as an entrepreneur, our ideas of work are very different. Kind of like I Had said earlier, her work drains her to a big degree. Yes, it's very purposeful. Yes. But it's very draining in that world. And I get why there's a lot of pressure on her. My work can sometimes feel draining from time to time. I'm not saying it's always feel like fulfilling, but overall it's very fulfilling. So the way I, the way I want to have my relationship with work, the way I aim to relate with work is in a way that it fuels me more than drains me. Because I do love to work. I love it, I really do. It's in my nature. I like working hard, I like creating, and I definitely work. Here's the funny thing. I work harder now, I think, as an entrepreneur than I did anytime when I was working in corporate. But it does not even feel nearly as terrible or awful or soul sucking at all. And I think this speaks to our last episode about purpose because my work, thankfully is tied to what I believe is my purpose. Yes, I'm working hard and I'm, I'm working a lot sometimes, but it doesn't feel bad, right? I'm in alignment with that work. That work is, is, is, is I'm contributing. There's something greater than me at play. I believe in my work. Like what? There's a prayer that Mar. Marianne Williamson uses and I. One of the lines is, you know, God used me as a vessel for, for which to produce and create, you know, change in the world, something like that. And that's what it feels like to me. So when we talk, I think that it, it's, it's a feeling for me. It's not about like how many hours I'm working. It's not about how hard I'm working. It's really a feeling. And it's really hard for me to answer this. I don't really have the words for it. But it's not even about necessarily enjoying it all of the time because there's times I'm working and I don't, I'm not like, yay, this is the best day of my life. But it's not soul sucking. And it feels good. And when I work hard in a way that I can rest easy at night when my head lies on the pillow and I'm like, girl, good job. Like, we did some solid work today, right? And that could be a long day. I'm not saying it's a three hour day. Sometimes it's a very long ass day, more than I did again when I was in corporate. But it really Is the feeling like. I don't know how else to describe it. It's satisfying, it feels good. It's about the contribution. That's the word I'm looking for. For me, it's really about contribution like we had talked about. So, you know, we'll get to. In the next question, we'll kind of talk about boundaries. And I think that's really important. I'm not saying it all, guys, that I'm a workaholic network and I work all the time. People that know me know that I love to play hard as well as work hard. But when I am working hard, it is not about hours in a day. That's all I can say. Some, some weeks I work probably like 80 hours a week, and other weeks I work too. It really depends. So I think the balance piece, at least for me, and I think you guys, Matt and Reno can relate to this, is I don't like being overly scheduled. So I, I'm not going to sit here and say, oh, I work these hours a week each week. And I, I always take time off on Saturdays and Sundays because I don't. Sometimes I work on a Saturday if I want to, because I can and I feel like it. But that's the difference. Right? Like, I'm not overly routined. But I will say I'm contradicting myself all over the place today. But I will say that routines are very helpful in the balance portion, which we could talk more about with respect to boundaries. I'll leave it there for now because I think I've probably confused a lot of people. [00:37:24] Speaker B: You know what though, Michael? No, you. Did you say you were contradicting yourself all over the place? Yeah, but, but, but this points to something. This points to something that I think is really brilliant, which is that the, the dynamo, the. The sort of dynamic nature of, of like work, life, balance. It's nuanced, it's non binary, it's binary and non binary, it's dynamic. It's kind of. It is black and white and it's also kind of colorful in a lot of ways. And I think that what you just shared really points to that. So not all over the place, but also like understandably so and beautifully so. Yeah. [00:38:05] Speaker A: Thank you, Reno. [00:38:06] Speaker B: Thank you. [00:38:07] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. It's the embodiment of the Gemini. It's always contradicting ourselves. And it's because we are a giant contradiction because we have two people inside of us, which is why people think Geminis are two faced. But we're not. We're actually Just like we're literally operating with twins. We have two people living in our world. It's tiring. Y' all loves fun, but it's tiring. [00:38:30] Speaker C: One loves rest, the other one loves to work. So, I mean, the balance is like the great word. Nuanced is very nuanced. For me. That's just the way I do it. And I'm not about to sit here and tell people how to. How to get their own work life. Balance. It's really about finding your own. [00:38:43] Speaker A: Yeah, balance. Yeah, I agree. I agree. I think I'm meeting this in my life right now because I think I've. I've been a pendulum swinger, and I've been right. But usually what happens is, you know, again, shame and trauma have swung me up, and then I've stayed over here, which is overachieve. Work, work, work, work. Very structured and rigid. You know, like, what I've been practicing lately is because. Well, because I'm so damn tired lately. I'm like, I don't make my bed in the morning. I'm letting things just not be in their place in my home. And there's a part in me that's like. It just drives me bonkers. But then there's a part of me that's like, fuck, I don't care, right? Just let it go. So I think I'm healing this part in me right now, and it's really interesting. So, you know, if I were to say, what does balance, like, mean to me, it's like, it really is letting the pendulum swing. You know, I. You know, this. This kind of perfectionistic mentality of balance is like, I'm going to walk this. This balance beam, and I'm just going to stay on it, and I'm going to be balanced in my life. I don't really think it looks like that. I think life is too messy to be on a. On a balance beam, right? Life's always pushing us in different directions and challenging us and getting us to expand and open. So how can we be balanced and centered always? So I think balance is, like. It's about work. Like. Like moving with the wind or moving with the current, you know, and letting it. Letting it take its course and having discernment, right? Like, is it time to rest? Is it time to work? So I think, like, in order to have balance, we have to have healthy discernment, and we have to be coming from, like, a really true and authentic place within us being like, am I doing this for image? Am I doing this for ego? Am I doing this for other people, like, right. And start asking, like, how can I do this for myself? Like, how can I show up for me? So if balance for me right now in my life is about taking care of myself first and other second, that is such a foreign concept for me. Like, it's. And it's. It's a game changer for me right now. But again, it brings up all the stuff, right. The codependency. The reason why I was codependent is because I learned from a young age to take care of other people before I take care of myself. Because there was some sort of subconscious patterning playing out in my family system that taught me that. And so unlearning, that's really allowed me to come into more balance. So. Yeah, I think that's important. Yes. It's a hard thing to achieve, I find. Like, balance is just. Yeah, it's a lot. Especially like, I can't. I can have a rigid personality structure too, which is like, I get attached to things and I want to see them being a certain way. So it's like it can really test me in like so many ways when it's like, okay, it's not how I want it to be. How can I just accept that it's over here and eventually the pendulum will swing? So it's like the universe is always trying to restore balance in the universe and if we get too attached to one side of the pendulum, the other side of the pendulum can be. Can cause suffering for us. And I've. I've had self inflicted suffering most of my life because I was like on this side of the pendulum looking over at the other side being like, you know, like. Yeah, so that, that can be challenging for me. [00:41:58] Speaker C: Even the way you just said it, Matt, balance is hard to achieve. Using the word achieve there. Right. Like, it's something we have to hit at. Right. Like, even the language, it says a lot. [00:42:08] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, good catch. Thanks for pointing that out for me. [00:42:12] Speaker C: Well, I think it's everyone, even, even myself, like, if I feel like we have to, we have to get there. But really, I like the way Reno described it is very fluid. Like you kind of go here and you veer off and then you have your, your guardrails, which I guess are like the boundaries which kind of veer you back on. But at least for me, it's never been like, oh, I've achieved it. [00:42:29] Speaker B: Yay. [00:42:29] Speaker C: I'm there and then I'm in it forever. It's. [00:42:31] Speaker A: Yeah, it's. [00:42:32] Speaker C: I go off and then I Come back. [00:42:34] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So maybe, you know, I'd say discernment and flexibility maybe are the two virtues to practice that are underlying, like, healthy balance. [00:42:44] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:42:47] Speaker A: Okay, question three. What boundaries do you put in place to ensure a work life balance? Reno? [00:42:59] Speaker B: Well, I was. I was reflecting on boundaries and, like, I guess what. What they mean to me and how. How I relate to them. So what I came up with is, like, boundaries are a way in which, you know, I'm. I make it easy to experience life most optimally. They're a way that I am able to prioritize and validate my experience, and they allow me to love and honor you and love and honor me simultaneously. Right. That's kind of how I look at them. And so, like, you. You use the word discernment, and I think that that's a beautiful word and a beautiful tool for. For navigating boundaries. Because I've really had to step back throughout my life. There are moments where life has actually just, like, grabbed me and, like, and sat me down and had me take inventory of my life and assess where it is optimal and where it is not. And in that honesty, in that inventory, you know, I was able to. And. And from. From a. From that place of, like, I. I guess clarity and recognition begin to, you know, begin to create boundaries in my life that allowed me to live most optimally. Examples of boundaries that I put in place, well, I'm clear, more or less. I'm clear about what is a yes and a no for me. I think something I do really, really well is honor and validate and prioritize my feelings and my experience. So if my body says it's time to leave the party, I leave the party. If my body says, like, you know, I'm. I'm not feeling this, like, I honor that and I bring my compassion and curiosity to it. And if that means we need to, like, shift things up or I need to step away, then I'll step away, you know, But I think at the core and the foundation of all of this is a willingness to validate, value, and prioritize, like, my feelings, my experience, my body, which can be really hard to do because it means that, you know, we have to trust. We have to trust ourselves and hold ourselves in esteem and regard, you know, hold our experiences and our feelings in esteem and regard. And so then my boundaries are cultivated and come from. Not like. Like, I'm not. My boundaries aren't about you. They're like. They're about me. And. And they also serve both of us. Because I'm modeling what it looks like to prioritize my experience and love myself. And as a result, maybe you will learn from that, you know, because I'm teaching you how to treat me. And that may be difficult for you, but also you get to see what it looks like to love yourself and prioritize your experience, and hopefully you take something from that. Right. So another thing is. And this is kind of like on topic, but off topic, but, you know, we're coaches. And one of the things that I have learned as a sort of boundary or kind of a filter even, is like, pricing and time and agreements, you know, like my pricing, for example, when it comes to my work, what I charge and how I value myself and my work becomes a filter for who is meant to work for me and who isn't. And in that, it kind of becomes a boundary as well. So, like, you know, one of the things I'll see sometimes is, like, people are experiencing burnout because they're, like, taking on so many people, more people than they can handle, and they're charging at a level that no longer serves them. And so it's like, okay, cool, let's raise our prices, you know, and then maybe that will, like, filter out some of those people. Right. And allow us to engage in and. And. And experience the lifestyle, the desired lifestyle that we want. Right. Time. Like, time boundaries as well. You know, it's like, here's when I work, here's when I don't. Here's when I'm on, and here's when I'm off. And being really, really clear about that, why? Because I love and value myself, and that time boundary is a reflection of that, you know, And I think that's it for now. I think that's what I've got. There's probably more there. And I think the last thing I want to say is, like, I'm learning to ask for help and to admit when I don't know, which is, like, really hard, you know, because I want to know it all. I love being someone who, like, knows it all, you know, and sometimes I do know it all, and sometimes I don't, you know, and I'm like, I need help. You know, I excel at flow, and you excel at structure. I'm struggling with structure. Can you help me with that? You know? Yeah, I don't know. Just admitting I don't know. So, anyway, I'll leave it there, but, yeah. Yeah, love it. [00:49:10] Speaker A: Thanks, Reno. [00:49:11] Speaker C: Yeah, The. The part about saying, no, I'm so happy you said that. That's one of the things I had. But like saying, saying no when it's a no is beautiful. You said it very well. So I'll skip that part of my share, but I want to underline it. It's really important. Saying no is one of the most beautiful acts of self care. Even though for a lot of people it might feel very uncomfortable to, to do that. Okay, so I'll be really specific and tangible in my answer here because I do have some things that I, some boundaries that I try to adhere to. I'm not going to pretend that I'm perfect at it. So the way that I, I work in my schedule is that I work three days a week with clients and I pack all my clients into those three days because when I'm on and I'm in coach mode, Coach Michael mode, and that hat is on, I'm on. And I'm not thinking about content and I'm not thinking about my accounting and I'm not thinking about the GMB or the podcast. I'm thinking about my clients and just serving. So that is three days a week, which is the most I could do. And then I have a day that I work specifically on and focus on the Gaiman's Brotherhood and this podcast, the Gaming Going Deeper podcast and everything that we do. [00:50:13] Speaker A: Right. [00:50:14] Speaker C: So that's another day. And then I have one day as a floater day, which is, we'll see. I wake up and I'm like, how do I feel today? Do I feel like working? Do I need to work? Sometimes I do need to work and I can't really take the day off. Sometimes I go to the beach, sometimes I go for a bike ride, whatever it is. But either way, it's a kind of floater day where I decide how I feel in the moment. And that's just my Gemini nature. I don't like to be over committed and over scheduled. And I have my weekend as my weekend only because everyone that I have my playtime with works Monday to Friday. So it makes sense that my Saturdays and Sundays are, are also off to be with them because otherwise it's very rare that someone's going to be okay, let's go to the beach on a Tuesday. So that's kind of how I keep my boundaries in place with respect to my schedule when it comes to time off and vacations. I would never end up in a situation now where I work for 365 days without a vacation. I don't know how like I, I mean I was, I witnessed you on Your journey of that. And I. Yeah, I'm really happy. And I'm gonna hold you to it, Matt. I'm gonna hold you to your. Your commitment not. Or not to go that long without vacation. But, yeah, I. I'd like to take my vacations, whether it's just a weekend or sometimes. Here's the thing with me, though. I'll take a vacation and I'll bring my laptop and work on my vacation. Like, you guys have seen this podcast or my clients, and I'll. I'll have that while I'm in Mexico or while I'm in Puerto Vallarta. [00:51:37] Speaker A: Right. [00:51:38] Speaker C: And sometimes I make the conscious decision that I'm going to be going on vacation, but I am going to do some work on that vacation. Other times I don't. And it's very clear, no, I'm going on vacation, and it is a vacation. So last fall, I went to Europe for two weeks. I didn't do anything. No clients, no podcasts, nothing. I was just off the grid and. And again, going to what Reno was saying. It's really the feeling like knowing what you need and asking yourself, is this a yes? Is this a no? And then another one, which I'm very good at with respect to boundaries, is my screen time. This pisses off a lot of my friends and family, but I am very adamant. I try to keep my screen time to about three hours a day average. Doesn't always happen. As I said, this is definitely not a hard and fast rule. I have my notifications off, so unless you text me, I'm not going to get notified of it unless I purposefully, intentionally go into my phone and start bop in all the apps. And then when I do go in there, there's like a million notifications, of course. So I also have. This is the part that my friends say, I also keep my notifications on group chats off, because I'm in, like, a lot of group chats, and they're always bopping and buzzing all the time, and I just can't handle it. So I just keep. I mute anything that's a group chat. I keep my phone permanently on silent. So don't call me. Or if you do call me, it's gonna just ring in silence. Again. Pisses off a lot of people. But this is all really important because I find for me, it's really easy for me to get distracted in my phone. And once I go in there, I go into one app, I go into the next app, and I'm in there for, like, next. You Know like four hours have gone by and I'm like, what the fuck just happened? I got to do. So that's why I do that. And that's just a me thing, right? It's not easy for me to just open my phone, look at one thing and then put it away. I, I tend to get stuck in there. So the question is, what if it's an emergency that can't be good for business because you must have clients that email you. Yes, that's all true. But I'd like to remind everyone that up until about 30 years ago, we have survived just fine without having people available to us on call 247 all the time. Emergencies happened. Big, wonderful, thriving businesses were built without cell phones. So it's possible. And so how do I manage legit business questions with clients that email me and whatnot? I don't ignore them. [00:53:55] Speaker A: Right. [00:53:56] Speaker C: I do dedicate specific time in the morning, in the, in the evening. So in the morning when I'm having my coffee, that's when I go through my emails. And here's the thing, what, what I used to do is I'd be getting all these notifications and responding while I'm like, while I'm at the gym, while I'm walking down the street, while I'm doing this, while I'm doing that. And I'm giving them like half ass responses and that's not fair. It's not, that's not good for business. My clients deserve my full ass, right? So I give them full ass responses in the mornings when I'm there and I'm present and I'm like, okay, what do they need? How can I help them? Let me, let me give them as much value as I can in this interaction. Right? So it's, it's more of a present response than a distracted response. So that's it. Those are some of my, some ways I keep my boundaries in business and work. [00:54:39] Speaker A: Yeah, I can definitely learn from you, Michael, in certain areas for sure. So I'm going to take that in. I'm kind of having a mini epiphany right now. I don't want to share it because I think it's really important and it might help people. So this week I had a really intense session with my, with my therapist. And I always thought my deepest wound inside me was I'm not good enough. Been working with that wound for a very long time. But in this session we did a lot of deep, somatic work and I met a wound deeper than that one, which is actually the one that feeds that, which is I am not wanted. And it's, it cuts really, really deep. But I now realize what I've been doing to mitigate from feeling that wound is codependency is if I have this deep feeling of not being wanted or needed, what do I do? I, I, I'm, I, it's almost like I'm addicted to being needed by people. I go into this profession, why do you think I can't take holidays? Because there's this thing, it's an over sense of duty. Yes. But it's also this feeling of like being needed, people needing me. And that was ingrained into me when I was nine years old. It's like, okay, you're the now the main man, you're needed. This is your role. Right? So this is interesting. It's really making me really realize like where some of this, the shadow sides of this wound and how it's showing up in my life. And so I'm really working hard to heal this part of me. This, like, on this, this part of me that feels not wanted. [00:56:04] Speaker C: Right. [00:56:04] Speaker A: Not letting myself belong is one of my protectors to feeling unwanted. Right. But really inside of me, there's this deep, deep seated part in me that wants to be wanted. Right. But I don't know how to let that, let that happen in a healthy way because it's also kind of terrifying. Right. So I just wanted to put that out there because I'm really, really navigating this in my life right now. And it's, it's teaching me a lot, A lot of wisdom is within this wound. So some of the boundaries that I put in place and, and I've learned these all just in the last few years. So not meeting urgency with action and to learn to sit with urgency. I have urgency in my system. It's ingrained in my nervous system. Like I just have this, it's, and it drives me mental and it's been, it's been so toxic for me, this urgency. And I've had to learn how to sit with urgency. So a good example of that is when there's emails in my inbox, when there's a conflict that's happening in my life, when there's red dots on my phone, all that, it creates urgency in me. And it's like I, I feel like I have to produce or I have to, I have to meet it with my attention right away. One of my greatest or one of the things that I'm learning in this life is how to disengage, disengage from conflict, disengage from the urgency. Just allow the urgency to just be there and not have to act on it. I think that's really important. So I've come up with this, this motto that I've been living by, which is I'll respond when I can. And I sometimes leave messages in my inboxes for days. And I've had clients, less clients. I usually respond to my clients quicker. But I've had some friends and stuff complain about this and being like, you know, and it brings up stuff for them which is maybe that they're not feeling their need of being wanted, being tended to. Right. So it's interesting how I'm mirroring these things to people. By taking care of myself, I give somebody an opportunity to take care of themselves. Right. And, or realize how they're not taking care of themselves. Really powerful. Some other practical things is, you know, not no weekend work. So I worked 32 hours on the weekends for almost two years. And I don't, I haven't worked a weekend day since. I, as soon as I quit that, I said no more. I will never work weekends ever again. So I'm very strict about that. And I try my best to not be on my phone and I disengage. It's where I recharge. Eight hours a day is my cap. I don't work beyond that. And that's a hard one for me because when there's red dots and there's things and there's things that need to be tended to and I've hit my eight hour cap. Like there's this part of me that wants to tend to it because for me, I have a hard time sleeping at night when I know there's stuff, my brain will start to circulate and then I'll ruminate, right. And then I don't sleep right. So there's this aspect of me that I'm having to learn how to let my nervous system settle. Even when there's pressures and things coming on me. Um, and it's interesting, as I'm implementing these things, my business is thriving. So with every boundary that I, that I bring in and I respect and I integrate it fully into my life, my business goes to the next level of success. So it's almost like the universe is like testing me. Like, are you actually able to have boundaries and focus on your needs? And when you do, we reward you with more success. So I take a two hour lunch break. I have been napping every day, which is so weird for me to Say, because the old me is like, you're a lazy piece of. Right. That shadow part in me. And like. But then there's this new part of me that's like, oh, it feels so good. And I'm just going to keep doing it. So I'll usually finish clients. I'll have three. I'll nap for. For an hour, I'll have my lunch, and then I'll have four clients after that. And that's my day. And it works really well for me. And I don't tend to any other things on those days. Client days are client days. I don't do anything else on those days, which is really nice for me. And then as to Michael, he's going to hold me accountable to this. I told him to hold me accountable to it. I. So I took. The longest I've ever taken holidays in my whole career is two weeks. So this year I splurged. I took four weeks, and it was the best thing I could have done for myself. So this week coming, or this month or year coming up, I'm taking seven weeks. So I'm going to still take my four weeks, which will be all of August, will always be off. I don't want to work August ever again. And then three months on, one week off. Three months on, one week off. 3 months on, one week off, and then full. So that works out to six or seven weeks a year, which is good. And I think I need that and I deserve that. I deserve to take time to myself. So, yeah, I'm doing a pretty good job at adhering to these, to be honest. And I'm fighting that urge to, like, want to, you know, But I'm really. I'm really grateful. I just had this epiphany in this. In this podcast because I'm like, wow, I'm really realizing how much this wound has been such a motivator to the way I'm showing up in my work, which is, in my opinion, in unhealthy ways. So, yeah, grateful for that. [01:01:12] Speaker C: Can I add one Matt, please? Yeah, yeah. Work with people like Matt and Reno if you can. Because I gotta say, you know, we were supposed to do this podcast last week. I was sick. And so on the day of, like, super last minute, I had to tell these guys, sorry, I can't do it. I had to go to the doctor, yada, yada, yada. They were so beyond gracious and understanding it. It was hard for me. Again, going back to that, like, oh, I don't want to let anyone down, kind of Thing. But it really helps to have people in your corner, whether you work with them or not. Just loved ones who can keep you accountable and just remind you, like, hey, listen, this podcast recording in my example is, like, not worth going to the doctor to get yourself checked out. So, yeah, really important to. To have people in your corner. [01:01:58] Speaker A: I agree. And you know what's cool about that is that I was able to offer compassion for you, and I was. It was. I genuinely was like, let's. It didn't matter to me, really. The old me, a year ago, I would have kind of been irritated because I would have been like, well, if I was sick, I would have just pushed through it and not practice self care. So to see somebody practicing self care, when I'm practicing self care, I have compassion for it. Right. So again, it's the mirror effect. Like, how can I treat others when they're taking care of themselves will be an indicator of how I take care of my. You know, how I treat myself when it's time for me to take care of myself. [01:02:32] Speaker B: That's so good. Thank you for that. Yeah, I'm taking that with me because I. I get mad at people sometimes. Like, when. When I'm sick, sometimes I'll just show up anyway. I'll be like, you know, cleaning and doing things and whatever, and. And then I'll get mad when other people aren't matching my energy, and I'm like, you know what? I just need to chill. You know, I just need a rest. So I appreciate that. Thank you. Yeah, it's interesting how compassion begets compassion, you know? [01:03:03] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [01:03:06] Speaker B: Wow. What an episode, guys. [01:03:11] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:03:12] Speaker A: As usual, thanks for your guys's vulnerability and insights and wisdom and lived experience. Like, honestly, it's invaluable to me. Like, I. I feel the energy of your guys's shares, and it really helps me kind of map. So, like, I had this realization because something you said. Reno. Led into something Michael said, and then it helped me realize this. So, again, these are like, little mini therapy sessions for me. And I really value your guys's mirror. It's beautiful. So thank you. [01:03:36] Speaker B: We're evolving out loud. [01:03:38] Speaker C: Likewise. [01:03:39] Speaker A: Yeah, like that. That should be the hashtag of the game. And going deeper. [01:03:43] Speaker C: Yeah, that's good. [01:03:44] Speaker B: I think somebody uses it already. [01:03:46] Speaker C: Be careful. [01:03:47] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Well, yeah, audience, thanks for. For tuning in to another episode. What are we at now? What's our episode number? [01:03:59] Speaker C: I can tell you it is. What are we at? This is number 161. [01:04:04] Speaker A: 161. Wow. Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah, we've been consistent every. Every week. [01:04:09] Speaker C: Every week. [01:04:09] Speaker A: 161 weeks. Yeah. Yeah. Well, if you like what you heard today, please leave us a comment on YouTube. Let us know what. What this topic brings up for you. If you're listening on your favorite podcast platform, give us a star rating, hopefully five stars. If you enjoyed what you heard today and come and join us in the Gaiman's Brotherhood, if you're not there already, and we'd love to see you, come to our Zoom hangouts. That's where you get a chance to. To mingle with Reno and Michael and I. And, yeah, they're. They're fun, they're beautiful, they're vulnerable. [01:04:41] Speaker B: I was at two of them this week and they rocked. I went to two in one day. It was amazing. [01:04:46] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They are amazing. I love them. So come and join us, folks. If you don't have Facebook and you don't want to join Facebook, you can go to our website, Gaiman Going Deeper, or gaiman'sbrotherhood. Com, and sign up for our email list. And we email the links to the Zoom Hangouts every month so you can get them on our email list. All right. As Callum would say, peace, love rainbows. [01:05:11] Speaker B: Peace. [01:05:12] Speaker A: Bye, guys.