Making Friends: Introverts Edition

[00:00:02] Speaker A: Hello and welcome to Gay Men Going Deeper podcast by the Gay Men's Brotherhood where we talk about personal development, mental health and sexuality. Today I'm your host. My name is Michael Diorio. I am a life and wellness coach specializing in sexuality, relationships and self confidence. Today's episode is called Making Friends Introvert Edition. We're going to explore the unique challenges faced specifically by introverts in making friends and and we're also going to provide some practical advice and share our own stories that we hope will help you and inspire you in your quest for finding genuine friendship connections. So joining me today is Zayn Kahn, a certified life and French coach. Zayn, welcome to the show and thank you so much for agreeing to offer your own insights and experiences on this topic today. This is Zayn's first time on the Gaming Going Deeper podcast. So since it's your first time here, Zane, go ahead and tell our audience a little bit about who you are. [00:00:59] Speaker B: Yes. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here. When I got your email, I was like, yes, absolutely, we are gonna do this. Yeah. My name is Zain Khan. I'm a certified life and friendship coach mainly for introverts. For all of you who feel like you don't have that ideal friend making personality where you can just go into a room and charm everyone and have everyone like you automatically if you feel like you're a little bit more introspective and you want to have deeper conversations but you don't know exactly how to navigate that. I love working with you. And I think the intersection between people who are like that and people who identify as Q and gay I think is really an important area to explore because I think it's something that isn't talked about too much. So I'm so happy to be here to lend my insight and hopefully help you glean some value. [00:01:50] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Sounds great. And this is a very important topic to me personally, but also to our community. The reason why I wanted to do this topic specifically for introverts is a while ago, maybe a month or so ago, on my Instagram, on my willismo Instagram account, I posted just a post called six Tips for Introverts in Surviving Social Situations. That was based on talking to a few of my clients who they often come to me with the same problem, like, oh, I don't like these situations. How do I get through it? So I didn't think much of it. But guess what? I got so many DMs from that post. A lot. There Are a lot of introverts out there? There are a lot of people who identify with what you had just said. Maybe not feeling like they have the personality or that social situations, the typical gay social kind of engagements, drain them or they're not interested. So I thought, okay, well, this is definitely a big topic here. And you know, I know that having meaningful friendships has definitely helped me in my own journey and my own mental health and development. And I think it's a cornerstone of having a. Just a satisfying and fulfilling life. But making friends is a hard thing to do sometimes, especially as adults. People have their own lives, right? Once we get out of school, in school, we're kind of forced to be friends because we're stuck together. But once we get out of that, we have our own lives. If you move to a city, most people already have their friend groups already established. Some people aren't looking for friends. It's just harder to find reasons to connect. And this is especially true, I think, after Covid, where we were in lockdown for such a long time. So there's that aspect and then you add the gay aspect. And we've talked a lot on this podcast about why it's hard for gay men specifically to find. To find really meaningful friendships. Right. It has its own unique challenges. We've actually covered. I went through our archives before this episode. We've covered three different episodes to friendship. Episode 25, friendships with gay men. Episode 115 is called making friends. And then episode 142 is friends with Benefits. So this one's Making Friends, the Introvert edition. Right. So we're going to take that stuff that we talked about in those episodes and really apply that, like, introvert lens to it. So what if you're gay and also introverted or you consider yourself shy or what have you that presents its own unique challenges. So let's talk about some of those. I'm going to offer some of them, some of the ones that come up. And by the way, guys, I identify as an introvert. A lot of people find that hard to believe because I do a podcast, but I really do. I am an introvert. People that know me know that about me. Yes, I do like to go out and have my fun, but it definitely drains me and I need to recharge on my own. So here are some. Some common challenges. And Zane can talk more about this as well that people have come to me with when it comes to making friends. So, and this also comes from the, the, the post that I, that I did in My Instagram. So, as I said, those typical gay activities like going to bars or parties, for a lot of people, they just don't like it. It's not comfortable. They don't feel good there. They don't feel confident, they don't feel comfortable. So that's not. Not a place for them. They rather gravitate towards more solitary activities, which are great, but it reduces the opportunity maybe to meet people. Right. Introverts tend to prefer more meaningful connections than superficial ones. And in the gay community, we all know that superficial can be sometimes easier to find than the more deeper stuff. And a lot of people will tell me that they struggle with small talk, which is unfortunately a very common way to initiate a friendship. It's just the, hi, hello, how are you? But people don't really like that or don't know how to do that, or they feel awkward or weird about it, so they just don't do it. Another thing is that introverts tend to overthink or overanalyze how they're being perceived. So if you ever get that impression of getting stuck in your head when you're in a social situation, it does not lend itself to being very confident or comfortable in social situations. And it actually hinders your ability to just chill and relax and connect with the other person who is right in front of you. And then finally, this is very true for me. Introverts can often be misunderstood as aloof or unfriendly or disinterested. Uh, that has been sort of the story of my life. Just because I, unless I'm flirting with somebody, you don't know, I'm interested or I, I can be misunderstood as a loop. I just don't, I don't enjoy a lot of that. Like, I don't know what you'd want to call it. Maybe small talk is the word I'm looking for. So those are some of the most common challenges that, that we hear about with introverts and making friends. So. So let's turn it over to Zane, our expert on gay introverted friendships. That's what I'm going to call you today, Zane. [00:06:41] Speaker B: Yes, it works. I love it. Can we just talk about how much overlap there is between what you just described and the gay experience for men? Growing up, you talked about this idea of wanting to be or having a tendency to be more introspective. And it's like, yeah, growing up, we didn't feel like we fit in in so many of these spaces, so we're naturally going to be more introspect. We're gonna lean towards activities that focus more on ourselves and understanding this complicated thing that, you know, isn't really talked about or definitely wasn't talked about in schools. [00:07:15] Speaker C: Right? [00:07:15] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:07:16] Speaker B: You talked about this idea of being small talk averse. Well, I think so many of us and I think definitely for me, for myself, when I was growing up surrounded by all these dudes and these straight guys, I was like, all we did was small talk. There was no real deep emotional conversation or point of connection. So for me and I, I can. I think I can speak for a lot of other people, other gay men. We are small talk averse because it's what we were forced into growing up where we couldn't have those deeper connections because there was this huge part of us that are. Many of our friends didn't really know about. You know, depending on when we came out, if we. Or if we are out at this point, you know, I think there are. There's so many layers there. Even being superficial and cold. I think there's that aspect too where vulnerability for a lot of gay men is really scary. We don't want to open up because that wasn't safe for us and may not still be safe for a lot of us out there. So what came up for me was all of the overlaps between being introverted and being a gay man or a gay child. Growing up, there were so many aspects that I think intersect, which I think is fascinating. [00:08:29] Speaker A: So true. And I think maybe that's why that post really got so much traction on it, which I was surprised to see. But hey, here we are, right? So let's talk about your story. Zane, what have been some of your challenges in making friends? [00:08:42] Speaker B: Gosh. Growing up, I just longed to have any kind of, again, deeper conversation. I didn't want to throw sand in the sandbox with all these guys. I wanted to talk about what happened when the teacher came into class and had a kind of long face and maybe was going through something. I wanted to chat with a friend about that. I wanted to talk about how upset I was when I got a few marks off of the test. There was this longing for an emotional connection or something that went beyond the superficial really up until like I graduated high school. You know, my story is very much unique in some ways, but also not where I. I just longed to have deeper connections with people. I wanted to share more of who I was with. I mean, forget the world, but just with the people who I spent so much time with. I grew up with very few female friends. It was really just this group of guys, which is, and really was really conventional back then, you know, to have just your group of guy friends. Especially in elementary school, you know, the guys hang out with the guys, the girls hang out with the girls. And I think that was really a challenge for me growing up because I related more to the girls. So when I could have those few conversations, it was really nice, but it wasn't kind of something that I could cultivate or nourish because it just wasn't how things went. So growing up, I was very much in my head, very much dissociating from what was, you know, the trauma and the challenges that were around me. Just because I, I really never felt like I truly fit in with, with the people who I spent the most time with, which was really challenging. I would even want to talk to the teachers. I'd be like, making conversation with the teachers a lot, and they'd be like, hey, so go, you know, hang out with your friends. Like, you know, it's recess time. And I, I just literally want to be inside talking to them. So in that respect, I think I was definitely an old soul. And, you know, as far as the gay experience, I think, like, for so many of us, it was just keeping so much suppressed, so much inside and wanting to have an outlet for that, you know, And I never felt like I truly had that up until again, really graduating high school when I could, when I could be myself. And I think a lot of us can relate to this idea of like, we're still finding ourselves, you know, because I, for a lot of non gay men, and especially people outside the Q bus community, that wasn't something they had to think about a lot. It's just like, how their sexuality would affect the way they were able to express themselves and worried about being teased for that specific reason. And it's, I think, something that a lot of us, myself included, are still healing from, because to this day, I'm still trying to figure out how to navigate having friendships with other gay men. [00:11:29] Speaker C: Right. [00:11:30] Speaker B: It's still something I work on and struggle with. So that's a little bit about me. It's always a, I call myself a permanent work in progress. [00:11:38] Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. I think aren't we all, though? Yeah. Right. [00:11:42] Speaker B: Okay. [00:11:43] Speaker A: So, yeah, that's great. We could talk a little bit about what those struggles are for you, but also for the clients that you work with. Right? I, I, yeah, because I assume you, you talk about this day in and day out. [00:11:54] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. I think for my clients, again, it's really like they have so much inside of themselves that they want to offer and they want to share with their current friends or prospective friends, but they just. They don't think they're good enough. And I think a lot of our limiting beliefs come down to that core belief that we're not good enough. For some reason, this is especially true for gay men because we grew up with that belief that because we have. Because our sexuality is as is the way it is, we are not worthy. We're different in some way, we're different in a bad way. [00:12:30] Speaker C: Right. [00:12:31] Speaker B: Thankfully, in some places anyway, the culture shifting, where we can see. See the incredible and beautiful gifts of being gay. But I think in so many places and for so many of us growing up, we did see it as almost like a character defect, something that was inherently wrong with us. And I think that definitely comes into play when we consider, you know, friendships too. And again, I think for my clients, I don't at this point have any gay men clients, but I think there are certain overlaps, again, between being an introvert to where it's like, again, keeping a lot inside and wanting to talk to people, but feeling a little bit nervous or shy. [00:13:11] Speaker C: Right. [00:13:12] Speaker B: So I think there are just so many interesting intersections and overlaps that we can explore there. Yeah. [00:13:17] Speaker A: Let's take a quick step back, though. What I mean, how would you define an introvert for those out there who don't really know if they are or they're not? [00:13:26] Speaker B: It's so interesting because if you look at the psychological research and the literature, they actually define it differently than how you or I might define it based on the kind of colloquial verbiage of, you know, based on if you go out and you can have a good time, you can be very social, but you need time to recharge. That is one definition of introversion. But personality psychologists and social psychologists will actually say people who are introverted based on the, you know, big five personality tests will find themselves a little bit more asocial, shy, recluse. So this is so great for all you listeners out there. You get to define what introversion means for you. And that kind of intersects with being gay too, because you get to define aspects of that for yourself as well. Of course, we can get really specific. You know, you're attracted to a certain subset of people. However, I think all the other implications of what it means for you in society and your ability to make friends, you get to ultimately decide what being gay means for you when it comes to all of that as well. So, again, another beautiful intersection there. But, yeah, it really depends on who you ask, though. I think the more common definition for non psychologists would be extroverts get their energy from other people and can recharge in that way, whereas introverts get their energy from being by themselves and doing solitary activities. Yeah, yeah. [00:14:52] Speaker A: And do you. Would you consider yourself then, by that definition, an introvert? [00:14:56] Speaker B: Yeah. It's interesting because when I was surrounded by people who I didn't connect with, I was like 100% an introvert. But as I found my people, the people who I could laugh with and cry with and chat with for hours, I think I'm actually more of an extrovert, you know, as ironic as that might be. But I really understand the introvert experience and what it's like, which is why I tend to. To work with those folks. Yeah, yeah. [00:15:24] Speaker A: I do find it's interesting when people say, like, oh, I'm not a people person, or I just don't, you know, I don't like being around people. And then they. They can internalize. Oh, something's wrong with me. But sometimes what. What I find as, like, we're digging through coaching is like, well, wait a minute. The people that you're spending time with are not nice people. They're judgmental, they're critical, they're rude. So before you go ahead and, like, you know, think that something is, you know, wrong with you and your social skills, make sure you're not surrounded by people who just are not your people or they're not conducive to developing the kinds of connections that you're looking for. It's very rare that something is actually like the person, you know, with my clients, it's very rare that they've actually done something wrong or something's actually wrong with them. They just need to find the right people that really bring it out of them. And it's very, like, very much like you said. Then all of a sudden, they're comfortable or confident. They're free. They can be themselves. They're not scared of that sense of judgment or criticism that they might have had by being around people who were not necessarily the safest to be around, like, emotionally safe. I mean. [00:16:23] Speaker B: Yeah, Michael. So good, because how many times as gay men do we just blame ourselves for whatever issue is there? You know, I don't fit into the stereotypical mold of what it means to be a gay man. You know, I can speak to that. For anyone who. Who's not seeing this on video, it's Like, I am a plus size gay man who's also with a South Asian background. [00:16:43] Speaker C: Right. [00:16:43] Speaker B: So I can relate to not fitting the stereotypical mold of someone who might be accepted by a lot of gay men in the, in the overall gay community. Right. So I think this is such a great tip for anyone listening. Notice when your brain is wanting to blame yourself for a situation like, oh, I'm too introverted. Well, have you looked at, again, the people who you are spending time with? Are they people who you can be yourself around? Because if you can't be yourself, then you don't know if you're an ambivert, an introvert, an extrovert. [00:17:12] Speaker C: Right. [00:17:12] Speaker B: Because you truly don't know who you are. [00:17:15] Speaker C: Right. [00:17:16] Speaker B: And again, I have so much compassion for anyone listening who is like, okay, yeah, that sounds good, but how do I figure out who I am? It's like, it's definitely a journey and a process that we can get into here because I think for so many gay men, our whole lives are spent figuring out who we are, what we really like. It's. I saw this beautiful post about how in our adult life we're figuring out all the things that straight people got to figure out when they were kids. [00:17:42] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:17:43] Speaker C: Right. [00:17:43] Speaker B: Because we didn't have that luxury of exploring and doing all these things because it wasn't safe for a lot of us anyway. [00:17:51] Speaker C: Right. [00:17:51] Speaker B: So then we spend our adult, our adult life, especially for those of us who can be out. We get to figure out what our hobbies are, who we like to spend time with, who we're attracted to, not just on a physical level, but an emotional level. [00:18:04] Speaker C: Right. [00:18:05] Speaker B: It's like we, a lot of us didn't have that opportunity, so now we're, we're almost playing catch up, right? [00:18:10] Speaker A: Yeah, 100%. And it's, it's so important to have that sense of self, compassion and curiosity at the same time while you're doing this work. And you had said that, you know, we're something like we're all a work in progress or what was it you said at the beginning? [00:18:25] Speaker B: Permanent work in progress. [00:18:26] Speaker A: Permanent work in progress. And I love that. And as we grow and evolve, this has been very true for me. My interests change and the things I want to do change. And you know, I was, I'm not the same person I was five, 10 years ago with respect to the kinds of people I want to be around. And that's okay. It's okay to evolve, it's okay to grow. Just because you're friends with somebody, you know, at age 12 does not mean you're going to necessarily stay friends with them when you're in your 40s, 50s, and 60s. And that's okay. It's always nice to have that sense of okay. I love the question, you know, what kind of connection do I need right now? That's something that I really love to ask. Just to make sure that the connections that are in your life are really the ones that are fulfilling you and satisfying you, nurturing you. That's the word I'm looking for. Nurturing. [00:19:11] Speaker B: Yeah. So good. Based on the research literature, we replace 50% of our friend group every seven years. So on average. So, I mean, yeah, you're absolutely right. We definitely get to re choose our friends and our. The people in our life on purpose. And I love this exercise for all you people listening who like to, you know, get out the pen and paper. It's like, if you were to look at who's in your life, would you choose these people today? And sometimes it can be really great to get out a pen and paper or get out a Word document and say, okay, this so and so is in my life. This is why I would choose them on purpose. And even if you are choosing them again, you get the opportunity to really have this sense of gratitude and thankfulness and connection and attunement with that person because you're like, yeah, they're in my life. And I love that they're in my life. It's such a great thing that they're in my life. And maybe you come across someone in this exercise where you're like, you know what? I chose them for whatever reason a few years ago or a few months ago, but today, where I am today, I don't think it makes sense for me to choose them again. And if you're listening to this podcast, that probably means you have a tendency towards growth and self development. And I truly believe that people who have a tendency towards growth and self development are the ones who are going to have an even higher turnover with their friends and friend groups because you're not the same person you were a year ago. That's true for everyone, but especially true for those of us in self development. Right. So I think another practical tip is again, embracing change and understanding that it's okay to leave some people behind and step into the new version of yourself, which is going to inevitably, inevitably involve new friends. [00:20:59] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Very well said. And that's been very true for me as well. Let's talk a little bit about why it's so Hard to make friends in this era of, like, super connectivity. We have apps and social media, and we spend a lot of time on them, the research shows, and a lot of people look to these apps when they're feeling lonely or bored. Right. So why is it still so hard to make friends even though we have these apps and resources available to us? [00:21:28] Speaker B: Yeah, I think you just spoke to it right there. You said, you know, when we're lonely and bored, that's when we go on these apps to try and find connection. And you would think that going on an app to try and connect yourself when you're lonely or bored is. It just makes sense, it's logical. But the thing is, you're coming to it from this kind of void of or lack, I don't have enough where I am right now. I'm lonely where I am right now. There's something missing in my life. Therefore, I need to fill that with connection and with these friends. And that can work at some level, but we have to be very careful of the line there, where if we're telling ourselves that our lives are not fulfilling enough as they are, then we're gonna be in a place of almost neediness and graspiness, and we're gonna be very attached to making new friends in a way where we can't process things like rejection and we can't process things like failure within, you know, going somewhere and wanting to make a new friend and not making it right. Whereas if we approach making friends from a place of abundance, I think it's a lot better. But specifically for. For social media, I know it's like we should be more connected, but we're actually so disconnected. Especially with TikTok. There's something about a no specific shade to TikTok. Any app like this, you know, where if you're scrolling constantly, you almost lose the humanity of the people who you're scrolling past. I remember just posting a video randomly, and someone commented tagging their friend, like, making fun of me in a way where they were just, like, having an inside conversation with their friend in my comment section. And thankfully, you know, I've been online for so long, it didn't bother me. But I'm like, I have a feeling this person who's commenting doesn't even see me as a human being because they're literally just bypassing the fact that they're on my comment section and they're having an inside joke with their friend making fun of me. So, yes, you would think we'd be more connected, but because we're so mired in comparison and shame and blame and guilt when it comes to looking at other people having fun and being subject to algorithms that are not meant to make us feel connected, but they're meant to make us stay on the app. [00:23:41] Speaker C: Right. [00:23:43] Speaker B: And that doesn't. Those two things are not always going hand in hand. Right. So I think it can be very challenging when we consider social media because we have the expectation of connection. But then how many of us have felt awful after even 30 minutes of scrolling on. Yeah, scrolling on TikTok or Instagram or whichever social media app we're on. Because the goal isn't to make us feel happy, it's to make us feel dependent. And sometimes there's something very enticing and nefarious, but also enticing when it comes to feeling sad. But in a way where you're sad with other people. It's like misery loves company, right? [00:24:18] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:24:18] Speaker B: It's a very disempowering place to be at some level when it comes to social media. Which is why, again, another practical tip for anyone out there, be so mindful of how you use social media, especially as gay men, because we have so much trauma, just like collective trauma, individual trauma. And a lot of that is we do speak to that on social media, and I think, you know, that that can be a safe space. But we also want to be mindful of how much we're indulging in that. [00:24:46] Speaker C: Right. [00:24:46] Speaker B: Because, you know, even I speak to it sometimes. You certainly speak to it. But there can be a point where it becomes not productive and empowering, but actually, actually the opposite, where we're almost, like, indulging in each other's really painful stories in a way where we haven't taken the time or headspace to be mindful of where we're at before going into that kind of container. Because, again, we don't, like, go on to TikTok thinking, okay, yeah, I'm gonna hear a bunch of really traumatic stories from other fellow gay men, and I'm gonna be fine after. We just don't take that time versus if we're going to therapy. [00:25:21] Speaker C: Right. [00:25:21] Speaker B: Or working with a coach. We're like, okay, this is my time to heal. But we don't have that level of intentionality before going on social media, which is why I think it can be very disconnecting. [00:25:32] Speaker A: Absolutely. Yeah, I completely agree with that. I think what. What came to me as you were speaking is this concept of false connection or superficial connection. It looks like, and seems like on the surface, oh, here's this little app. And if I go onto this app, all of my friends are there and all of their friends are there, and they're all posting photos, and I can see them all. They're there. Like you. You visually imagine that people are there, but you're just on a phone. You're by yourself in your room looking at a phone, and there's nothing wrong with that. I'm not. I'm not dissing that, but it's about, like you said, being very intentional. That that is not what connection really is. At least that's not the way I would define it. I would call that like a superficial connection. I can chat with people there. I can make plans. I can. I can chat with Zane and DM him there and make plans to hop on this podcast. Yes. Or I can chat with my friends and say, hey, do you want to go out on Friday night? That, like, I can make those kinds of plans. But the true, genuine, meaty, juicy, loving, wonderful connections that I'm looking for as an introvert, I'm not going to necessarily find on a. On a phone. And I think it can be easy to mistake it for that, especially if you're an introvert who doesn't like to go out. It's really nice to be like, ooh, I don't have to go out and go with all those people. I can just sit here in my pajamas on the comfort of my own home, pop open this app with a nice glass of whatever and connect. I'm using air quotes for those who can't see me. Connect with people that way. And you think you're hitting. You think you're checking your connection box, but you're not. [00:26:58] Speaker B: Yeah, so true. It's very sneaky, isn't it? Because we think, okay, we're just going on for a little bit, and I'm an introvert, so I prefer to be in my home, as you're saying. But what that's really doing is it's stopping us from leaning into the courageous version of ourselves that would want to go out there. And, yes, a safe space, but also one that evokes discomfort in a different way because, you know, we've heard it from a lot of people. Discomfort is a currency for our growth. [00:27:23] Speaker C: Right. [00:27:24] Speaker B: And I think we want to. We want to lean into that a little bit, and we're doing the opposite of that within, you know, these social media containers, because, yeah, it's comfortable in some way, and it's comforting to commiserate and see all these stories where the algorithm wants us to keep us on there, but by the end of it, we're like, in an oblivion of discomfort anyway. So it's like, may as well have just gone out somewhere to a board game meetup, you know, because you're gonna be uncomfortable either way. Just choose which one is gonna help you make friends in the long run. [00:27:55] Speaker C: Right? [00:27:56] Speaker A: Yeah. How many times have I been on Instagram and felt worse after than before? Like, I don't know if other people can relate with that, but especially if I'm like, doom scrolling, where I'm like, kind of just completely going in there unconsciously. There's times where I'm very conscious, like, okay, I'm just going to look for this thing or check out it for a few minutes. And there's times where I'm in there, like, what am I doing? Like, where these last 30 minutes go. Like, I've just been scrolling mindlessly. And I will end up feeling worse when I'm not onto myself about why I'm on there, what I'm doing, what are my thoughts while I'm on this. Um, so I think it's really important that we do approach it with intentionality. Cause I'm not. I don't want people to think that I'm dissing social media. I'm all over it. So I. That would be very hypocritical of me. But I like to say, if you're using it just like dating apps. I had the same thing with dating apps. If you're gonna be using dating apps to make. To meet potential romantic partners, that is your search engine. It is not the dating. Just like making friends. Yeah. Go ahead, find. Use Instagram to make friends and connect with people. Sure. But take it off the app eventually. Like, that's not where the friendship happens. The friendship, if it's someone that's local to you, happens in person. Say hey. Say, hey, have a coffee. Let's go up, let's do this thing. And that's where the genuine again, the more meaty, fun friendships tend to be nurtured. [00:29:15] Speaker B: Yeah. Even for me, when I go on Instagram, I don't know what's up with that Explore page, but all I see is, like, shirtless dudes. I'm sure at some point my algorithm just figured me out or I looked at something and, you know, left it there for too long or whatever, but all I see is these shirtless dudes, a lot of them working out. And it's so easy for me to try and say, okay, you know, this is motivating. Like, yes, I'm going to have a body like that one day. But the underlying subtext is. And you don't right now. [00:29:41] Speaker C: Right. [00:29:42] Speaker B: So I take it even a step further, Michael, and talk about how this idea of even being intentional as you go on there can be challenged. Because it's like, what are you, what are you putting into your visual diet? Even if you have a level of intentionality, If I'm just seeing these really toned, super fit, like V line six pack men, that's what I'm gonna be training my brain to think is desirable. Because not only do I see that, but I see all of the comments. Oh, you're so beautiful. You're so this. And all the likes and you know, the sponsorships. [00:30:15] Speaker C: Right. [00:30:16] Speaker B: So, you know, I'm sure you and I know you've talked extensively about how there's a lot of superficial aspects about the gay community with gay men and I think that feeds into it too is our visual diet. It's like, what are we actively trying to, trying to look at? And even if we have that level of intentionality going into social media, it's like just what our eyes see can really affect us because we talk so much about this idea of, well, what we consume growing up is going to be shaping our automatic thoughts and subsequent feelings. Now. It's like, well, what's going to shape our thoughts and subsequent feelings in five years? It's going to be what we're consuming right now. So I think, you know, for anyone listening, please be so mindful about your visual diet too. Especially if you don't or even if you do fit into that category of that tone, tight gay man, just be really mindful or other aspects. You know, if you're seeing someone who's flying a private jet when you're maybe still working towards something like that or working towards your business or your career. Right. There's so many things that might seem motivating and empowering, but you have to dig a little bit deeper to see if it really is. And I think anytime we're focused on what someone else has and in a way that's lacking, in a way that has scarcity for us, it's not going to be helpful. So, yeah, I'm not dissing it either because I'm all over social media too. I've questioned this. I'm like, should I be on here? I have all these thoughts. But then I'm like, you know what? Any tool can be used in any, any way. And you know, we can't control that necessarily, right? [00:31:47] Speaker A: Yeah, we totally agree. [00:31:48] Speaker B: Do our best to put out positive value and things that we know are going to help people. [00:31:53] Speaker A: Right? Yeah, yeah. So to that end, let's talk about that. So you focus specifically with introverts. Right. And friendship. So tell us about that. Like, what are some of the most common challenges that you see day in and day out? [00:32:07] Speaker B: Yes. And again, it intersects so interestingly with the gay experience because so many introverts think, you know, my clients, they think that they need to be less of themselves or a different version of themselves in order to create their friendships that they know they deserve. But the opposite is true. You know, I love to use this metaphor of a magnet. Like when you start to attract people, when you're truly authentically yourself, you will attract people into a stronger force, but you will also repel people with a stronger force too. [00:32:41] Speaker C: Right. [00:32:41] Speaker B: An equal, equally stronger force, just repelling. [00:32:44] Speaker C: Right. [00:32:44] Speaker B: And I think that's so salient for so many of us, especially, again, gay men, where we're like, I don't want to be myself. Being myself meant getting hate crimed or getting teased or bullied growing up. So I really just want to hold space for anyone listening who has that experience. And I want to tell you that as, as a gay man, as an introvert, leaning into the aspects of yourself that are authentically you, that is what's going to help you create those lifelong friendships that are actually meaningful to you. Where you can cry, where you can share your, you know, trauma in an appropriate context, where you can truly be yourself in a way where you don't have to hide yourself in a way where you don't have to be something that you're not. And I think that's the most powerful thing for introverts, for gay men and other people too, you know? [00:33:34] Speaker A: Yeah. So well said. And it's so true. The more of you you are. Which is easier said than done, of course. Requires a lot of courage, but the more of you you are. Yes. Some people aren't going to like it. And to that I say let them. Yeah. They're not for you. They're not your people. They're never going to be your people. Wouldn't you rather be loved and appreciated and respected and be around people who love you for who you truly are instead of having to constantly put on this, like, facade when you go out to be with your quote, unquote friends? [00:34:04] Speaker B: Yeah. So good. And I'm glad you brought up the aspect of it being easier said than done. So I want to offer a really practical, tangible Tip here. And that is journal or do something where you're getting to know who you are just on your own by yourself, explore different hobbies and interests. Because again, for so many of us gay men, gay individuals, we didn't have the opportunity to do that growing up. We had to focus so much on being hyper vigilant and making sure no one saw us, made a comment that could possibly make someone think that we're gay or anything like that. [00:34:39] Speaker C: Right. [00:34:40] Speaker B: So we didn't have the opportunity to figure out what our true hobbies and interests were because we spend so much mental and emotional bandwidth being hyper vigilant to stay safe and stay protected. So I know so many of you out there might not know who you are. So it's. It's almost reductive of me to sit here and say, just be who you are and, and go out and share that with the world. If you don't know who you are right now, that is perfectly okay. We're both out here holding so much space for that. And know that it's something that you can discover on your own in a safe way. And once you do figure out who you are a little bit, start with something that's relatively benign or something that doesn't make you feel super vulnerable, like a hobby that you're really into. Maybe you discover that you like a specific TV show like Game of Thrones or something, and let that guide you as you're making new friends. You know, like start to open up with people with just your hobby, something that doesn't make you feel unsafe, and then see how that's kind of received by the people who you're wanting to make friends with and then go up from there. This is kind of what I teach my clients when they're really scared of being vulnerable. Because we hear this idea of vulnerability being like, oh, I have to tell my child a trauma. And of course that's terrifying. Like, no one wants to do that, especially with new people. So I think what's really powerful there is, again, start with something that makes you feel a little bit uncomfortable, but something that you're not in this kind of zone of terror around where you're still kind of able to pursue it and do it right. So so many tangible ways for you to figure out who you are and then take that to either deepening the connections you already have or making new friends as well. [00:36:20] Speaker A: Yeah. Raywin, I love that you're peppering this with all kinds of practical tips. We love that here on this podcast. So keep it up. Something that I think is especially a challenge for gay men that I've seen is that we have this idea. Let's say there's someone out there who's listening, and they're like, yeah, I want to go out there and I want to intentionally find some gay friends, because may I have a lot of straight friends. That's all nice, but that. That part of my life is a bit lacking. And I would like to find some gay friends. You know, we talked about how sexualizing and blurring the lines between fun and friends often gets in the way. But another thing is, is I think people have this concept of what they need to be like with how they need to show up when they're in groups of gay men. And if you are someone who's sensitive or spiritual or a little bit quirky or weird, these are all words I'm describing myself, that could be very daunting and hard because the thought is, oh, I'm not like these guys. They're not gonna like me, or I don't belong here, or this. This is not a match. But the truth is, is that you could be gay or a lot of people are gay and sensitive. There are a lot of people who are gay and spiritual. There are a lot of people who are gay and quirky or have a diverse range of interests that are not all what we see all the time kind of flaunted out there. So it's important to realize that that does exist and those people are out there. Chances are they're looking for you too. But someone's got to stand up and say, hey, here I am. I am Michael, and I'm really into tarot, and I'm also into these other things here. But I'm really looking for people who can talk to about my new Oracle deck, and I can do some card readings with. I think it's harder for the gays to really stand up and be that version of them who is gay and this other thing, because we maybe want to hide that other aspect a little bit more. What do you have to say about that? [00:38:15] Speaker B: Yeah, 100%. I think so many of us will want to or have a conditioned response to use our gay identities as the main facet about ourselves. And it can be, if that's something that feels aligned for you and it makes sense to find the end. As you said, I'm gay, and this is what it means to me to be gay. I think, even again, getting a pen and paper and writing down, like, what does it mean for you to be gay? And Then write all the ands for. I would have. I would say at least have 10 ands. And I like, you know, tarot reading. I love this card game called Yu Gi. Oh, I love Avatar the Last Airbender. I love going for walks in the rain. I love being expressive and effervescent and I love having deeper conversations. Find out what your ands are. And, yeah, lean into those a little bit and do it in a way again that feels safe for you, but in a way where you're still owning that side of you in a way that's unapologetic. And, you know, let's be realistic. There will be some people out there who won't be into that and they might give you a side or they might not continue the conversation. Know that when you put in enough reps and are able to process through some of that, you know, quote unquote rejection or failure, you're going to be able to find your people. It just becomes math at that point. I tell all my clients, at some point it becomes math. Like, even if we take the metaphor of dating, if you go on a hundred dates, you're going to find someone who you connect with. [00:39:46] Speaker C: Right. [00:39:47] Speaker B: And the same is true for friendships. So find out who you are, find out what your ends are in addition to being gay, and lean into those radically. Because, again, I know growing up it seemed like such a huge part of who we are, and it is. It really is for so many of us. But it doesn't have to be the only part of us that we embrace or maybe don't embrace at some level. [00:40:09] Speaker C: Right. [00:40:10] Speaker B: There are just so many aspects to us, and we want to lean into that idea of being multifaceted because we are. [00:40:17] Speaker C: Right? [00:40:18] Speaker A: Yeah. And hold both. Right. So you could be someone who loves partying and the typical gay scene and all those great things and drag race and all that, and be someone who really likes spending time on a nature walk alone in meditation. Both can be true. And, like, you don't have to just show up as one version of yourself. You could embrace the fullness of who you are. And as you do that, I think the connections become richer and deeper and you just open yourselves up to even more amazing, wonderful kinds of friendships. [00:40:48] Speaker B: Absolutely. Because as gay men, we're gonna understand that aspect of each other in a way where no one else will. We're gonna understand what it was like to go to the bathroom stalls and cry because someone used a slur or because we just didn't feel like we belonged in that moment. So when you are able to, as you're saying, embrace both. You can have the aspects of yourself that don't fit into the stereotypical gay mold while also saying, yeah, these are ways that I do identify with some of the common perceptions or just the common ideas that are within the gay community. And then you can connect over that because it's such a beautiful thing to be able to do that. And I'm still working on that is connecting with other gay men too, because again, it can be daunting. It can be challenging as someone who is overweight and who's, who's plus size and is wanting to fit into this community but feels, you know, I feel like I don't belong in many ways. So just know that I can sit here and give you all this advice. But again, we're all still permanent works in progress, and I think that's a beautiful thing. [00:41:51] Speaker A: Love that. Part of my mission and what I do with, with willismo, my coaching and in the gay men's brotherhood in this podcast is, is create spaces where gay men can come together and connect in a way that is not typical of what we normally would. So men's groups. I'm running a men's group right now, actually, and it's great. And we connect each week on a different topic that's really relevant. And we all get to have our chance to share and talk and discuss and ask questions. And it's so refreshing. And the people who attend often will tell me like, I didn't, I felt so alone. I didn't realize all these other people had the same fears, had the same challenges, were going through the same thing. And the beauty of it is more than that is these are people who are not even like each other. They're age 25 and 75 saying the same thing. Or one person's living in India, the other one's living in, you know, Los Angeles, West Hollywood. They're having the same challenge. And we can all come together and realize, hey, wait a minute, we're not alone. We, we do have a lot of that common experience, and I think that's such a beautiful thing. So, you know, I, I definitely believe one of the tangible action steps that people can take, viewer, listener, who's other listening is go find these places. They're out there. If you have this belief that the only, the only place that Gaiman connect is at a bar, that's not true. There's lots of ways and lots of different areas and things that, that, that we're doing that are maybe more aligned to you whether it's going for like there's running groups, there's sports groups, there's reading clubs. There's my men's group in the gay men's brotherhood. We have a monthly hangout which is free on the last Thursday of every month where we talk about whatever the theme of the month is and it's people come in and we just share and we do that every month. So there are those options out there. I think it does take a little bit of extra work to go find them. [00:43:46] Speaker B: Absolutely. And I think there. There's all the mental work that goes along with that too where it's like we have all these socialized and conditioned messages from our childhood where it's like, are there really other people like us out there when we spent so much of our. Yeah, there are. [00:44:03] Speaker C: Right. [00:44:03] Speaker B: When we spent so much of our lives being introverted or more than introverted but just closed off from the world. And you know, we were told by. By so many people that we're never gonna fit in or we just maybe felt that way. [00:44:20] Speaker C: Right. [00:44:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:44:21] Speaker B: So I think really challenging those notions and challenging those deeply held beliefs and condition conditioned messages, it's so central because then you will open yourself up to these beautiful groups that you're talking about where you can connect in attune and have just such a beautiful experience with people who aren't like you but also are like you. Right. As you're saying. [00:44:42] Speaker C: Right. [00:44:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:44:43] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:44:44] Speaker B: So great. [00:44:45] Speaker A: So, Zane, we are both coaches so I think we have to leave our viewers and listeners with some really awesome practical steps and tips. Go for it. What? Further, our listeners out there who do identify as either shy or introverted or sensitive, whatever that may be, how can they start taking steps to making friends? [00:45:05] Speaker B: Yeah. So I mentioned it earlier a little bit but the first thing is to define introversion for yourself because again, like being gay, it's going to be one of those things where people are going to tell you what it means to be gay, what it means to be introverted. So literally sitting down and saying, okay, I am introverted. What does that mean for me? Or you know what, maybe even discarding that label on its own because as much as I use it for my marketing, it's like, well, what if I don't want to just take on that label? What if I'd rather just say like I'm someone who is a little bit asocial at times or I'm someone who needs to recharge his batteries when I'm out with friends for too long really defining what that means for you, I think is super, super important. And then when we look at the intersection of introversion and being gay, it's like, again, defining what being gay means to you in a very similar way and just really being aware of what you're coming into a friend making situation with. It's like, yeah, I do have a lot of thoughts about vulnerability and being open and I'm still willing to be here. Know that the fact that you're listening to this podcast shows that you want to improve in some way. You want to grow, you want to evolve and step into the version of yourself that can make friends, maybe as an introvert, right? So I think that's one thing that is super useful. And then again, I'll kind of repeat what I've said earlier. But this idea of working your way up to the ultimate source of your discomfort, which might be your goal, maybe you do want to go to a party one day. Maybe that's something that's really enticing for you. Or maybe it's a public speaking event where you're empowering other gay men. Whatever it is, if that is your goal, if that's at the top of your ladder, what's at the bottom of the ladder, just one rung up, is that maybe going on to a zoom meetup where you can maybe have your camera off and maybe even your audio off and just listen and be in the space of gay men sharing their experiences, or gay men who are introvert sharing their experiences. And then once you've done that, and once that's pretty comfortable for you, move on to the next thing up the next rung up the ladder, which would be maybe putting your audio off and participating in the same group. I think overall, I want to tell anyone listening that it takes a lot of effort, it really does when it comes to making friends. Maybe not as much as you think, but it does take effort. But you are so worth the effort it takes. Because when you are able to create these lifelong friendships, when you're able to continuously do the work of unlearning all these socialized messages, that's when you can step into the version of yourself where all the work is just worth it. You know, you have friends who you can talk to, connect with, attune with, cry with, laugh with, it just makes life so much better. Because I know in this hustle culture, this productivity culture, a lot of us are thinking about work and making money, but what does that mean at the end of the day, if after your workday you don't have people to share that with. [00:48:05] Speaker C: Right. [00:48:06] Speaker B: It almost becomes a little bit meaningless. And I think I don't want that for anyone out there listening. So that's what I would offer anyone out there. [00:48:14] Speaker A: Awesome. Those are some great tips. What about small talk? What are your thoughts on small talk? [00:48:21] Speaker B: Yeah, so this is interesting. It's like, I think it can be an avenue, you know, where a lot of people really don't love small talk. And you know, as I mentioned for myself growing up, small talk was and is the bane of my existence. But it can be a way of connecting with people at first. And I think we need to be really mindful of like the spectrum, right? Where we're like, I don't like small talk, but I don't know if I necessarily want to talk about childhood trauma right away. And it's like, what's in between that? And I think what's in between that is hobbies that we talked about. [00:48:52] Speaker C: Right? [00:48:52] Speaker B: So find places where you can connect with other gay men, other introverts, where you're talking about a hobby that already connects you because that in itself can be really powerful. Where yeah, it's not small talk, it's not the weather, it's not politics or anything like that, but it's like something that connects you in a way that still feels safe. Because you're gonna find that when you talk about, let's say, tarot reading, it's going to be something where you can really get into if you're into it and, and talk about it with other people who are also into tarot reading. But it's not going to feel as scary and vulnerable as actually sharing details about yourself. However, when you talk about tarot long enough or whatever hobby it is, that is going to be an avenue for you to slowly start getting into things that are a little bit more personal. I also just saying interested people are interesting because sometimes we think that we need to bear this burden all on our own and just disclose all this information. But we have to keep in mind that in a friend making situation, there's going to be at least one other person there too, right? It's not going to be one side. I did a post on this a while back where it's like the effort when it comes to making new friends is only 50% yours. It's also 50% the other person's. [00:50:09] Speaker C: Right? [00:50:09] Speaker B: So just know that there are other people who are searching for you too. Because if you're wanting to make new friends, especially as an introvert, you're Gonna feel like it's the weight of the world on your shoulders, but that weight is actually being shared by the person who's gonna experience your friendship as well. [00:50:23] Speaker C: Right? [00:50:25] Speaker A: Beautiful. Yeah. That's so well said and very true. I think we've. We've actually said that quote on this podcast before not too long ago, so I'm happy that we're saying yes. It's so true. Okay, Zane, any. Any last thoughts before I wrap up today? [00:50:39] Speaker B: Gosh, I just want to thank everyone for taking the time to invest in yourself. I know it can be really challenging, especially when we consider all the intersections of being an introvert and being gay and making friends and being someone who maybe consumes a lot of social media. It can be very challenging, but it's not impossible by any means. And when you're able to see the progress, even if it seems like small progress, that's really going to help you. So I just want to honor and hold space for anyone out there who finds this work challenging because it is challenging, but we both know you can do it. [00:51:14] Speaker A: And as you said so nicely, you're worth it. Absolutely. [00:51:17] Speaker B: Yes. You're worth the effort it takes. [00:51:19] Speaker A: Yeah. And where can people find you? [00:51:22] Speaker B: Yeah. So my website is zanecon coaching.com, which I know will be in the show notes is my first name atlastnamecoaching.com. and other than that, I'm friendship coach Zane. So friendship coach and my first name pretty much everywhere else. I have a beautiful complimentary offer where when you sign up for my email list, you get my training, which is how to make one new friend in three steps, which is, you know, something that we're wanting to do here. I'm all over social media. I'm getting back into TikTok as I mentioned. I have certain thoughts about it, but I'm getting back into it. I'm on Instagram, I'm on Facebook, working on getting some meetup groups launched here. So you can find all that on my website, which will be in the show notes. Yeah. [00:52:03] Speaker A: Awesome. Cool. Well, thank you so much for. For joining us today. I. I will add my own for those of you out there who do want to connect in these spaces with gay men and, you know, like Sam was talking about, where you do have, like a bit of a structure. So it's not just all small talk. I will be running my men's groups. I've just decided that I'm going to do another cohort in this in the winter. So right now I'm in the fall cohort, the winter one's going to start up in January or February, so if you're interested, please join me. I'll put my website in the show notes as well, and you can also find me on Instagram, all that good stuff. So, Zane, thank you so much for joining us today. [00:52:38] Speaker B: I should mention I also have my podcast too, which is like my main thing is it's called Making Friends Made Simple. So, yeah, I really focus on the introvert experience there and cover all the topics from social anxiety to friendships in the digital age to being left on red, which is one that's coming up, which is definitely something I struggle with, which is why I've been avoiding a bit. But it's coming up there and feel free to request any podcast topics as well. And yeah, we can go from there. Thank you. [00:53:07] Speaker A: Sweet. You might have to come back on the show then. Yes. All right. Awesome. And to our viewers and listeners, again, we do have the Gay Men's Brotherhood group. This is a group of over 7,000 guys now that are interested in personal development, mental health and sexuality. And we have the Zoom Hangouts there on the last Thursday of every month. So if you enjoyed this conversation and you do want to connect, please join us there. And that's all we've got for you guys today. Thank you for joining us and have a great rest of the day. Bye. [00:53:33] Speaker B: Bye.