Another “Failed” Relationship (Navigating Gay Dating)

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. Welcome to Gaming Going Deeper, a podcast series by the Gaming's Brotherhood where we talk about personal development, mental health and sexuality. I am your host, Matt Lansadel. I am an intuitive life and spiritual coach and counselor. My areas of expertise are teaching people how to heal toxic shame and attachment trauma and embody their authentic self so they can enjoy more meaningful connections in their lives. I specialize in working with highly sensitive people, empaths and gay men to develop a stronger sense of self worth. Today's topic is called Another Failed Relationship. Failed in quotation marks. Navigating the gay dating world. And we are joined by Jonathan Lee. Welcome to the show, Jonathan. [00:00:49] Speaker B: Hello. Thank you. Yep. So my name is Jonathan Lee. I'm a life coach, counsellor, and author of the book 40 Single Gay, which seems to have put me as a bit of an expert into failed relationships. I've got it. Brilliant. So I look forward to oversharing all of that with you over the next hour. [00:01:08] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for, for your intro. I had a chance to read your book while I was on holidays over the summer, and it cracked me up. There's a lot of humor in there, a lot of pain. There was pain and humor and it was. It was all over. So it was really cool to. To read it and I'm looking forward to unpacking it here with you on the show. So. Yeah, well, when we. When we had reached out to. You had reached out to me and, and we had jumped on a zoom call and we talked and we vibed and we weren't quite sure what the topic would be. I took, you know, took an opportunity to read your book and I just reached out and I was like, I think this needs to be the topic of this podcast because this is, you know, it seems to be a common theme, failed relationships in the gay community. And I've had my fair share of failed relationships. I've had my fair share of sabotaging relationships. And I just think it's something that we want to bring voice to normalize it. And, you know, the reason why we have failed in quotation marks is because, you know, both Jonathan and I are firm believers that there isn't really such thing as a failed relationship. It's. It's about evolution. Right. Every relationship is teaching us something. We're learning something from our relationships. And I think relationships are about practice. We practice and we get good at them. So we need to fail in order to get good at them. So we want to reframe that a bit today. But we also want to talk about just like, you know, how relationships can be really challenging. Dating can be challenging. Both, not just in the gay community, in all human, all humanity, relationships are really challenging. So what we're going to be unpacking today is just looking at both of our experiences in the dating and the gay community. Some of the struggles, some of this, maybe even successes that we've had. Any societal pressure to show up and be in relationship, I think is really, really big. Looking at the hostile world of dating, why is it hostile? Why is there so much dysfunction in our community around dating, which will lead us into the conversation about baggage and insecurity that we might bring into relationships and dating? So the trauma of growing up gay, the lack of role models in our community and, and how that has impacted, like I should say, the lack of role models of healthy relationships in our community can. Yeah. Looking at the investment that's required when we are dating. Right. That we need to invest ourselves looking at the satisfaction level in our relationships, you know, a lot of us have satisfied physical needs, but maybe our emotional needs are going unmet. Looking at that and then doing some reframing around what, what it means to be in relationship and have failed relationships, then we'll wrap up talking a bit about doing our inner work. So why it's important for us all to be doing our personal work, our therapeutic work if we want to contribute to a more conscious and healthy gate community and dating pool. So it's a very ambitious episode. [00:04:12] Speaker B: In for an hour, aren't we? Absolutely. [00:04:14] Speaker A: But we're going to do our best. We're going to do our best and we're going to just rip. So hopefully we cover the topic. So I want to know, maybe just off the top, like, what was your inspiration to writing this book? And, and for those of you who aren't watching on YouTube, it's called 40 Single Gay. Definitely recommend it. It was, it was a fun, fun and, and interesting read. [00:04:34] Speaker B: So. [00:04:34] Speaker A: So you definitely share. [00:04:35] Speaker B: Well, the inspiration for the book. I mean, I didn't plan to write it as a book, to be honest with you. It was my form of therapy. So I found myself a week before turning 40 and unexpectedly single. I suppose I was in a relationship of two years and I guess in the back of my head I knew it wasn't perfect, but it really kind of threw me. And I think that kind of breakup alongside turning 40, which is that kind of milestone year for a lot of people, kind of caused me to kind of. Well, I guess it was grief that was feeling and my way of processing that started to write it down and I. Yeah. And just reflecting on kind of past relationships and talking about. I don't think we can call them relationships as such. It was kind of probably more kind of hookups and then kind of, you know, kind of dating, which is really harsh. I'm really kind of pleased to be part of this and to be talking about it as. Because I'm sure my experience and feedback that I've got from others is that, you know, it is very relatable in terms of. Yeah. Kind of going through that whole kind of dating scene and trying to find someone. Yeah, so. So that was the, the inspiration behind it. [00:05:55] Speaker A: Yeah. Cool. Yeah, it's definitely. It was interesting to kind of like read your transformation, like of what. Of what you were going through in that time period and you know, the hurt and the, the pain that you're going through from the breakup and then transferring some of that into the, you know, the hookup culture. And almost like the shock of hookup culture, like, it's like when you've been in a relationship for so long, like hookup culture can feel like confronting and, and there's a lot of nuance to hookup culture. [00:06:24] Speaker B: Oh, incredibly hostile. Particularly more the kind of grid style kind of dating apps where it does seem to be more around immedia and. Yeah, and, and, and I think that's part of the problem. And we'll probably explore this in a minute. But particularly those grid style apps, I think it's, it's. I don't know, it's probably aimed as a dating site, but is it more kind of delivery for kind of having a shag? So you kind of. The people who you're, you're kind of talking to might be wanting different things. And I wonder particularly if that's part of the. Yeah. The kind of added element within gay dating might be that you're looking, you are looking for different things, you know, around that. [00:07:11] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. When I think a lot of people think that those grid style dating apps are purely for sex. And then you have some people that are on there looking for relationships. So you have people coming into these apps with different expectations. And I think that might cause the hostility is. It's like there's this. There's people that want instant gratification and there's people that maybe are in between. They could go either or. And then there's people that really want that more delayed, you know, taking their time to meet somebody. So yeah, it's, it's challenging. I wish there was an App for kind of each section, people that could go either way, then you got maybe more the demisexual. People that want to build and foster more meaningful connection on the, on the left. And then people that want to have, you know, casual sex and they enjoy that, that there's, you know, so we need more, we need more mediums. [00:07:59] Speaker B: Absolutely. And that's probably a good learning point actually kind of thinking about what platform you're using because, you know, I'm, I, I do kind of, you know, use the Grinder, you know, kind of. But actually, yeah, the majority of men are just looking for sex and, and kind of. Yeah. So maybe it's about the, the, the that platform that I'm using and is it the right one? [00:08:20] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. I think it's important to like analyze the expectations that we're bringing into dating and even relationships. Are they, are they matching the place that I'm looking? Are my expectations matching the place that I'm looking for? What I'm trying to find? Right. So if you have an expectation of looking for a relationship, maybe where you're looking, if you're looking on Grinder or Scruff, that might not be the, might not be a perfect match. Not saying that you can't find it there, but yeah, for yourself. What's. What expectations do you bring into dating right now in your life? [00:08:58] Speaker B: Expectation wise? To be honest, I, I'm probably trying to move away from having those expectations because I'd probably just be disappointed and, and I'm probably in a bit of a different place from actually when I wrote the book. And I'm really happy being single, I have to say, which is the first time in my life for a long time. I'd, I'd been in a long term relationship of 15 years, where we got together when I was 20, it was a civil partnership when we split up. And this is probably something which I'm sure many people listening probably would, would kind of relate to and almost guilty of in terms of just going straight into another relationship and then into another relationship. And it's really liberating for me at the moment to not to think about dating and not to think about men and not to think, you know, is he going to call me and kind of, you know, and all that kind of side of things. So I've kind of, I feel like I've pushed any expectations aside. I mean, I'm still going online, you know, and you know, occasional hookup, you know, occasional date, which actually I really almost long for. I kind of like that it's almost like a really lovely way of the headlines of someone's life that you can kind of get from a, from a really good date, you know, and, and I really like that because I'm naturally a people and to kind of hear that kind of insight and kind of, you know, it can be very intimate. [00:10:32] Speaker A: Yeah, it can. [00:10:33] Speaker B: Obviously not all dating is like that. And you know, and I've had the many awkward ones where you kind of just want the ground to swallow you up and you kind of, you know, or kind of looking for an excuse to go. In terms of. Yeah. Expectations around dating, I've probably lowered. Maybe lowered is the wrong word, but I've broadened them and it's less about the, the physical aspect of somebody. So I, you know, I used to have a particular type and I kind of do, I guess in, in a way in terms of who I'm sexually attracted to. But I think I, I think I hope that I'm more open now in terms of. Yeah. What I look for. [00:11:13] Speaker A: Yeah. What shifted for you? You said like things have changed since you wrote the book and you're like more, you're bringing less expectation into dating. What, what, what shifted? [00:11:23] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I recently had a relationship which was relatively new and kind of went into a long term relationship. Yeah. A long distance sorry relationship because of almost circumstances outside of my control. And it felt like the investment in that relationship was purely coming from me. And after a while that's, that's really tiring. And. Yeah. And, and then when that ended and that, and that was for me kind of saying, actually let's just pause things, it's kind of not working. I felt so much lighter and, and I kind of, I guess I want to hold on to that a bit because I was kind of stressing, you know, and kind of constantly thinking, you know, why hasn't he called and you know, sending a message and not getting a reply until a couple of days later and you know, and just feeling that that kind of impact it had on, on me, I suppose in terms of my self worth and, and I kind of, I don't know, I'm almost a bit annoyed at myself that I gave that to somebody else and I allowed myself to feel that as a result. So I think there's that learning that I've taken from that and almost embracing being kind of independent and thinking, right, I'm not, you know, I don't need to be in a relationship, you know, and, and I can do things on my own. [00:12:47] Speaker A: Yeah, I love that so much. And that's. We're at very similar spaces, actually. I think in our date, in our dating world, I. I feel very content being single right now and almost to the point where when I start getting into connection, there's this part of me that's really protective of my, My. My time and my space and like, but in a balance, in a healthy way, not like fully just, you know, immersing myself in the relationship. I think it's. I'm really learning how to take things slow right now and just let the relationship and the connection like, grow organically. And I think this is a product of a lot of, you know, attachment trauma healing work I've been doing in the last year or two and just really working on developing a secure attachment style. I think that's really helped tremendously. It's helped me a lot in dating. Are you aware of your attachment style? Do you know which. [00:13:40] Speaker B: No. No. [00:13:41] Speaker A: Okay. Yeah, I'll send you. I'll send you a resource after that. You can take a little quiz and find out what, what you're scoring on. But yeah, I think that's an important conversation to have around when. Whenever we're having a conversation around dating and relationships, you know, if people are either secure or insecure in their attachment style. We've done episodes on this in the past for the viewer. Listener, you can go check out. We have a podcast called Secure Relationships or Secure Attachment or something. And I think that will. Will unpack that. We don't need to go into that now. But I just was. Was curious. [00:14:13] Speaker B: But that's so important, isn't it, in terms of we need to be grounded in ourselves and know who we are before then entering a relationship with another person. And I think I've seen it in like a couple of friends and kind of, you know, all kind of in my past where I think some people, it's almost that desire to be in a relationship, to kind of fix themselves or to be complete and to be whole. And actually, I, I don't think that's healthy. And I think it's kind of. Yeah, yeah, that's. Yeah, that's. It's already putting pressure on a relationship. So, yeah, definitely doing that kind of inner work in terms of just kind of working out who you are. What's important. Having a life and kind of hobbies and, and connections and experiences of your own before then. Yeah, doing stuff as a. As a, you know, as a. As a we. As a. As a. As a, you know, in a couple. [00:15:08] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, I love that. And I think that one of the biggest things I've learned in just the last while, you know, whether that's been dating casually or doing a lot of the therapeutic work I've been doing is like, we're almost like evaluating the expectations and the needs that I'm bringing into dating and relationships because I think it's important. Like a lot of people would say, oh, I don't bring any. Any expectations into dating because I'll be disappointed. Like what you said a lot of people way. I think it's a dangerous way to think because we want to have expectations or standards that when we bring into relationships, because we, when we understand our needs, relational needs more specifically, we want to really be clear about the expectations, the boundaries that we have on getting those needs met. But where I think it's. It's important to analyze, and this is a lot of the work I've been doing, is the shadow side of expectation, the shadow side of needs. It's like, what am I putting onto this other person to meet that I should be meeting for myself? So when there's codependency at play, we can't just expect somebody to meet all of our needs. We have to be willing to show up for ourselves as well. And I think once we do that work and we understand, okay, these are healthy expectations, these are healthy boundaries, and these are healthy need requests that I have and they will fulfill me. They'll make me feel safe and trusting in a relationship. Those are valuable. I think that's really important and that's kind of that the data that we need when we're going into dating, otherwise we don't know. Actually know what we want. We're not going to be able to attract what it is that we're. We're needing, right? So I think for me, that's been a big part of it is like getting really clear about what it is that I need from a relationship and then moving slow so those, those things can start to grow and, and happen. Like you look at trust, reliability, commitment, knowing somebody, those things can't happen quickly, right? They. And there's a, there's a. What I notice in the gay culture is there's an impulsivity, right? And we want to get into relationships. We want to move quickly, we want to fast. We, you know, and the speed. And I think a lot of us could really benefit from slowing down and taking our time, but consciously, not in an avoidant. In an avoidant way. It's about communicating, okay, let's take this slow. Consciously. I think that would really lead to more successful dating. [00:17:28] Speaker B: Absolutely. And particularly kind of going back to like the grid style dating apps that has made it almost too easy to actually find someone. I mean, literally, you know, unless you're in a really isolated area or something, you've, you know, you've got people there on your door and kind of, if you want sex, you know, it's very quick to kind of do that. And I think. Yeah, yeah. So that's kind of fit with that whole kind of immediacy. [00:17:55] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. The word immediacy is so true. Do you miss the, the old days? Do you miss the old days of like without all these apps and where you'd have to actually go out and go to a bar and look at a guy across the room and it's. [00:18:09] Speaker B: Like missed out on that. And that might be a little bit of kind of, you know, what the book about in terms of that 40th year where I kind of, you know, kind of allowed myself to kind of enjoy sex and to kind of, you know, hook ups and date in. Because I, it probably took me until I was about 20 to come to terms with my sexuality and pretty much straight went, you know, went into a relationship where, where we were together for 15 years and I think we met on. Do you remember Gaydar? Where it was like a website version of this, I think. Yeah, so. So yeah, so we, I didn't really do any of that dating stuff until, until my 40s and that's. Yeah, yeah. So I guess it's my only reference is how things are now. [00:18:59] Speaker A: Okay. Yeah, yeah, I do, I miss that. And I, I don't miss necessarily like, you know, I used to go to the gay bars and get wasted and you know, hookups and stuff. I don't really miss that. But I think what I, I yearn for is probably what' readily available to most people, unless you're living in like a gay village or something. But you could be at a bookstore and you see a cute guy and you make eyes with them and whatnot. But most, for most of us, most people that are listening to this, if you're not living in like gay meccas like that, you don't really get access to that. And I think I really yearn for that. I yearn to make eyes with the guy at the grocery store and like, you know, have and flirt and stuff, but I never know if a guy's straight or if he's gay or whatever, so. And I think that's, that's something that I've had to grieve too, is like just really missing out on that. What we would say, like, you know what straight people get access to, being able to casually just walk down the street holding hands without being in fear or, you know, being able to kind of approach somebody at any venue and just assume that they're straight. Right. Like, I'm always very hesitant to approach men that I find attractive because I wonder if they're straight or if they're gay or not. Right. [00:20:07] Speaker B: It's a really good point in terms of that comparison to heterosexual couples or people, I suppose, in terms of. Yeah. Where it might be easier in that way to meet people. Although I was kind of at a dinner party the other day and. And someone was saying he would just go up to a guy and kind of say, you know, you look hot, you know, or something. And. And I was like, no way could I do that. And you're like, what's the worst that could happen? You're paying someone a compliment, you know, and they could just say, actually, I'm, you know, I'm straight, you know. You know, but yeah. Which I was quite. Yeah. Intrigued by. I haven't actually tried it myself yet. [00:20:43] Speaker A: But yeah, I actually have a funny story about that. So, you know, my. Like, I have this thing and I'm always attracted to straight men, and I think a lot of us can relate to this. It's just kind of something that we all seem to have. But there's a traveling party that in Calgary that goes to different venues. And so when you. When that happens, there's always like a little bit of an intermingling. There's some straight guys at the party. And I went. I went up to this guy, he was super sexy, and I was like, I really never go up to guys. I always let them approach me and I'm like, I mustered up the courage and I went up to this guy and he's like, oh, sorry, I'm straight. And. And whatever. And it was like my worst nightmare. But actually it wasn't in that moment because he handled it really well. It was just easy. I was like, okay, cool. So it's possible for sure to. To do that. Yeah. Yeah. Good feeling. Yeah. Yeah. Let's. Let's talk about. Because this seems like a good segue, like, the societal pressures to be in a relationship. Like, what sort of stuff do you carry yourself around, like, feeling pressure to be in a relationship? [00:21:48] Speaker B: Yeah, well, like I said, I don't think I do now, but certainly I probably have in the past, and I probably see it amongst kind of, you know, friends and, and kind of stuff like that where. Or maybe on the media and kind of how it's kind of depicted, you know, kind of in TV and stuff that that whole thing around you have to be in a relationship to, to almost be complete and, and kind of. I remember like telling a few people we like, you know, that I split up and I was single and, and the response would have been, oh, it's okay, you know, you're gonna find someone as if, you know, as if, you know, you do need to. To. To. Yeah. To be in a couple. To. Yeah. To exist. Yeah. But. Yeah, but I, I hope that I, I'm not kind of allowing that to kind of. Yeah. Kind of dictate any kind of decision making or anything like that. [00:22:46] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I think I'm probably in a similar position as you. I think I don't feel societal pressure. I think there is this energy within me though, around aging and I want to. I don't know, it's like almost like this. My ego feels like aging. I've. Well, my ego is bought into this whole notion that as you age you become less valuable. Right. And there's that there's definitely a part inside of me that feels that way. And so I do feel like this, like a little bit of like a urgency to find a partner and, and you know, and, and settle down and I. So there is, there is a part of me, but it's not coming from societal pressure though. I think it's coming from within myself. I think it's more of a yearning to be, to be in a relationship and to have a person that can be my person that I build my life with. And, and so there's that. That is definitely alive in me as well. [00:23:45] Speaker B: And have you had that. What was your longest relationship? [00:23:49] Speaker A: My longest relationship was eight years actually. So it was from 21 to 29. And that was. Yeah, it was, it was a pretty, pretty good relationship. It ended not as, as well as I wanted it to, but. And then I've had probably a couple year long and then a couple two year long and, and then. Yeah, so I've. I tend to be. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I like that. And then I've had lots of just date, you know, guys that I've dated for a couple months at a time, but more casually. And I think that's been more. In the last few years I've been really learning the art of casual dating and not making somebody and you know, playing with, I guess like non monogamous dating. Like you Know, which I just define as casual dating or exploration. Yeah, yeah. And it's been. It's. There's been lots of challenges. I think, you know, if we move into that. Next question, like, what is my experience dating in the. In the gay community? I think I've experienced a lot of mirroring. For me, I do. I have a disorganized attachment style, and I've been working tremendously hard to develop a secure attachment. But disorganized is a blank blend of anxious and avoidant. So some. Like, if I'm. If I'm in a relationship or connection with an avoidant person, I'll become more anxious, and if I'm in a relationship with somebody who's more anxious, I can become avoidant. I have kind of both sides of me. So, you know, the struggle for me in dating is I. I'm very perceptive and I do this work. I work with attachment trauma in my. In my practice as well. So I spot it really quickly in people. And there's a lot of insecure attachment in our community. A lot of. I see as, like, intimacy avoidance. So that's what I've really come up against. A lot of intimacy avoidance in our community and people having a ton of capacity for. For sexual intimacy, which I think is beautiful. Right. And because sex is really beautiful, and it is. It is one of the ways we can celebrate intimacy. But emotional intimacy has been something that I've seen lacking in our community and. But I'd also think that it was lacking a bit in me. Me too. And the mirror effect of that is like, I want this, but I want it when it's not there. And then when it's present to me and somebody does show up and they're able to be emotionally intimate with me. It kind of freaks me out a bit too. And it's like, oh, I gotta show up, and I gotta show up all my parts. I gotta show my fears and my insecurities and my shame. So this has been a humbling year for me, just being able to recognize my own fear of intimacy and how it's shown up for me as well. And I think that's given me a bit of empathy and compassion for our community, for myself. And. But it's. It doesn't change the fact that the. The. I think it's an epidemic in our community that there's an epidemic of intimacy avoidance and. And trauma and. And toxic shame, unresolved toxic shame in our community that. That needs to be healed so we can move closer towards our authentic self. So we can move towards authentic relationship. Right. If you're not connected to authentic self, you can't actually be in an auth relationship. So I think that's where the repair needs to happen in ourselves and in our community before we can have more conscious dating. You know, I use that word loosely because it can mean different things to different people. But like conscious for me is just people being aware of themselves and aware of their fear of intimacy. So we can talk about it. Right. It doesn't mean we have to eradicate it. It means that, okay, I can still move into connection with a fear of intimacy and it can be talked about as opposed to thinking we have to be perfectly healed before we move into connection. Right. [00:27:36] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah, I, I had similar thoughts and kind of thinking what I'll be saying in preparation for this. Mine isn't kind of within the, a kind of model that you're talking about, but I kind of just felt that maybe gay men just have more to deal with and that influence and obviously we come with our own baggage and then we might be meeting someone else with that baggage and then kind of, you know, that kind of mismatch and it can be really hard to separate the two and not to think, you know, example of if someone doesn't kind of call you back, you know, thinking you're not good enough or something. Whereas actually it might be nothing to do with you at all, you know, and, but to kind of. Yeah, to not let that influence you and, and then to think about then how you might be within another date, you know, and kind of, you know, and as you go on it, I guess it can be quite easy to get quite cynical about kind of everything and in the world. [00:28:34] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I agree. And, and you know, we talk about the trauma of growing up gay and just these things. I think a lot of us carry core wounding. Just like most human beings though. I see this in a lot of the people I work with. Doesn't matter their orientation, you know, I'm not good enough. Just seems like that's like the core for a lot of people. I'm, I'm not wanted, I'm not good enough, I'm not worthy these fundamental things. And I think what happens when we have these core wounds or these self limiting beliefs, when we experience a failed relationship or we get rejected, these things, this experience goes through the filter of our core beliefs. So we start to attribute meaning to this person broke up with me, this relationship didn't work because I'm not worthy, I'm not lovable, I'M not good enough. And I think where we, you know, where we can reframe is looking at it through, you know, well, honoring. There's a part of me that feels like, you know, that this core belief has been activated. We want to honor that, and we want to love that part of ourselves, but we also want to look for more evidence in that experience. Like, okay, what was actually going on here? You know, was it a mismatch? Usually when there's rejection at play, it's a misalignment. I. I kind of almost rejection and. And misalignment are synonyms for me because it's like if somebody rejected me, it means they're seeing something that I can't quite see yet, that there's not. There's a mismatch in our connection. So when I start to. When I start to attribute new meaning to my experiences and my failed relationships, that's when I start to see them as evolutionary. They're my relations are helping me evolve and grow, and they're not just reinforcing, you know, these. This part of me that feels like I'm not good enough. But again, both are active, both are there. So we want to honor both. But it's. Yeah. Anything else you want to say on. On, like, just trauma. Growing up gay, like, the impact that this has on. [00:30:33] Speaker B: I guess that leads me into. I think. I don't recall seeing positive role models growing up in terms of seeing many kind of, like, gay couples, you know, you know, on. On TV and kind of things like that. So I grew up in the 80s. I was born 1981, so I was kind of of, you know, teenage years would have been like the 90s. And at the time, it kind of felt like being gay was more of a shameful thing and kind of something that was done in secret or in public toilets and. And actually think. And I don't recall seeing any positive couples, you know, gay couples on. On kind of on tv. And I live in the uk, as you can tell from my accent. I think that's changed now. And. And it's really positive to see that there, you know, good role models and storylines aren't about, you know, someone who's trying to come to terms with their sexuality or about aids. It's about kind of, you know, people just being part of, you know, their community. So hopefully that will change. But it just led me to think, well, I wonder if that's had any influence on my relationships, knowing that I've not necessarily seen those positive ones growing up. [00:31:52] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I Think it's. You're very accurate. And I think trauma also plays into that too, because if we experience trauma within our, within our community, it makes it harder for us to be successful in relationships and then we see less successful relationships in our environment. But I think this is like a. It's a human thing too, because I think about myself growing up, up, and I didn't really have many healthy relationships to just to look up to, honestly. Like lots of fighting in my parents relationship and they divorced when I was about 9, so that was very traumatizing. And then looking around, it seemed like everybody's father was an alcoholic and, you know, like just so much. Right. So then again, when you look at trauma and how intergenerational it is and it leads itself through generations and so people that, that I think did get that modeled to them like a healthy relationship. But whether it was their parents or they. They got to see that in, in other gay couples, I think that's tremendous. It's such a beautiful way to, to have hope for, for relationships in our community. Yeah. Do you see that more now? [00:33:08] Speaker B: Yeah, I think so. I think, I mean, certainly within my culture and, and my kind of references. Yeah. Obviously that's not going to be the same thing for, for everybody kind of listening in terms of. Yeah. Where they are and, and kind of. But yeah. [00:33:22] Speaker A: Yeah, if you were to say, like, you know, this. This couple really is like a role model couple for me. Like, this is what I would want. What are you seeing in that couple? What are you observing in their relationship that you'd be like, wow, that's a healthy relationship. [00:33:40] Speaker B: I. Interesting, because I probably, I probably don't really know their relationship. Do you know what I mean? Because you know, what goes behind closed. [00:33:48] Speaker A: Doors, but from the outside eye. [00:33:50] Speaker B: Yeah. I guess it's that just kind of companionship or that kind of, you know, observing two people where they just seem to be in love. Do you know what I mean? Or they might be holding hands or just kind of sharing a moment or something. Yeah, yeah, probably that. But interestingly, and, and again, kind of without generalizing, it does seem more prevalent within the gay community, kind of open relationships as well. And it just, you know, I just see so many of, of, you know, on, on kind of dating apps, you know, where people are in a relationship but they still kind of hook up with others. And that seems to be on the rise. Maybe. I. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah. [00:34:41] Speaker A: Do you see that as a positive thing or. [00:34:44] Speaker B: I think it's completely up to the individual or individuals within that relationship. I, I've, I've not been in a relationship, in an open relationship, but it might actually suit me quite well. So yeah, I guess there needs to be that buy in by both, both parties and. Yeah, but I don't see what, I don't, I don't see why it can't be a good thing. [00:35:08] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. And I think you're right and I think when both parties want that, I think it's important. But I, I have seen and I've worked with clients where they are, they're doing it to stay in the relationship because their partner wants it and they don't want to lose the relationship, so they do it. [00:35:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:35:23] Speaker A: So again it's like there's so many factors at play here and I think, yeah, the only barometer to use to measure is happiness. Does this feel good for you? Right. And that's. So I say, you know, do whatever relationship structure works for you. And yeah, when I look at a healthy relationship I would say, you know, I'm very like, I'm very much a tactile lover and I think when I see like a couple that's really tactile and like they're touching each other a lot and they're like making a lot of eye contact and you know, I'm, I'm the guy that goes to the party that like. Yeah, I like to socialize but usually I like to hang out in a corner and watch people. That's kind of my time. [00:36:01] Speaker B: Oh, that's me. [00:36:03] Speaker A: So I'm always watching couples and I'm like, oh like you know, while the other ones over talking to friends and that and I kind of see like them gaze at each other and like you can just feel the love from across the room and I think that's what I want, you know, I want, I want that. I want a guy that's just really, really attentive to me. Attentiveness is a big part of it. Touchy, like always want to have his hands on you, like that sort of thing. [00:36:28] Speaker B: I think I've so, my long term partner who, you know, 15 years, he was probably the only person who I felt I could be like silly around. Like you know, I would, I would be able to dance and kind of sing in front of him. Yeah, that's a bit that I really miss because I've not found that with anybody else. And yeah, just to, to. Yeah, just to be free in that sense, I suppose. [00:36:52] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's. I love that too actually. And that's Another thing that I would look for in healthy couple is playfulness and, and sense of humor. [00:37:03] Speaker B: Yes. [00:37:04] Speaker A: Yeah, it is a beautiful quality. And I, I agree with you. I haven't had many relationships where, where that playfulness can come through. And I just recently started dating somebody in the last couple months and we're, we're doing a, like a long distance connection at this point and we have that, like, we can create videos and we'll just like sing and like dance and stuff. And it feels so easy, you know, Whereas before I'd be insecure about sharing like that part of me. But he's really silly and I'm, I'm. I have a silly side too. And we let our silly sides come out together and it's. Yeah, it's really beautiful. Yeah. Okay, where do we want to go from here? Do you want to share your experience of dating in the gay community? What has it been like for you in the last, you know, I'm curious actually. Just even in the last year, like since you, you wrote the book, things have shifted for you. What's dating been like? [00:38:05] Speaker B: Like, probably less dated. More hookups, if I'm honest. And, and maybe not, but, but that's not purely be my focus. And even that's, you know, not been all that much. But. Yeah, but I guess during the time of the book, I mean, there was quite a few humorous things that kind of happened. Again, this is probably touching more on the kind of hookup culture rather than dating, but just kind of of. I mean, I'm thinking of one guy who turned up at my door who from the time of kind of that message around, he was leaving his, you know, his place and kind of arrived at mine. He seemed to kind of like age by 10 years, kind of, you know, put on about 20 pounds and kind of lost his two front teeth. But rather than me kind of saying, actually you're nothing like your photos, you know, can you go. I invite him in to penetrate me, you know, and it's kind of that kind of. Yeah, that kind of of. I don't know, that lack of boundaries, I suppose, which I. Yeah. Or kind of. Yeah, I don't know. But that's that kind of where it kind of feels quite a harsh world at times where people aren't necessarily who they are saying they are. Yeah, I don't know. [00:39:23] Speaker A: Yeah, that's. Yeah, that's reminds me of my 20s. I don't put myself in those situations anymore because I don't really do. But that's why I freak out Like, I can't do hookups because I'm like, what if he comes and he, you know, I'm not, I don't like his smell or. And I'm very governed. Like in order for me to get an erection, there has to be like. [00:39:41] Speaker B: Yeah, more. [00:39:42] Speaker A: Right. So I think I usually will always go on dates first and like warm up. So usually around like date three is where I would like bring my physical body into things and that just works for me. Like there's no. Absolutely zero shame to anybody that does it on date one. Hey, I've been there, done that. [00:39:56] Speaker B: Right. [00:39:57] Speaker A: And it was good while it, while I was doing it. But you just made me think of the, the funniest part of your book that actually made me crack up up was about the. You offering drink to somebody and then he chose hot chocolate. [00:40:13] Speaker B: Yeah, there's like that etiquette, isn't there? Again, you might be from your 20s or, you know, I'm sure you still remember, but where you kind of say to someone, do you want to drink? And, and the polite thing to do is say, I'll have a glass of water. [00:40:25] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:40:26] Speaker B: And this person was like, what have you got? And I was literally. It felt like I was in Starbucks or something. And he kind of. Yeah, he kind of opted for hot chocolate where. [00:40:34] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:40:35] Speaker B: Thinking, you know, chocolate sprinkles cream on there as well and kind of. [00:40:38] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. That made me laugh so hard. It was literally too funny. [00:40:43] Speaker B: Awkward. [00:40:44] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, let's. Let's talk a bit about like. Well, we talked about satisfying physical needs. What about emotional needs? We talked about that, that. The investment of dating. I'm curious, you added that to the, to the list. What, what did you mean by that? [00:41:06] Speaker B: I think it can just be draining, dating, you know, like kind of. You're obviously wanting to portray yourself in, you know, as a, as a. A good first impressions, you know, so you kind of. And you also wanting to be engaging, you know what I mean? So it's important, you know, and, and kind of to do that time and time again. Do you? I mean, obviously depending on how many dates you're going on, but it can be really. And even chatting to guys online, you know, and where that can be quite mind numbing really. Do you know, I mean, where you're having that same conversation. But yeah, but to kind of. Yeah, to, to, to have that connection. It kind of takes effort, I think. Well, maybe it doesn't. Maybe that's where I'm going wrong. And actually if it's taken Too much effort at that stage. Maybe, you know, he's not the right guy and if I did meet the right guy, then it wouldn't be so draining and, you know, and all of that, that. But it, yeah, it just felt like that kind of that investment that it kind of takes in yourself. [00:42:10] Speaker A: It's a lot. So much. Honestly, it reminds me, I've been really kind of grappling with this whole like monogamy, non monogamy, what do I want? And you know, it's been torturous for me because I go back and forth, but. So I decided to actually go and see a psychic. I love going to psychics once in a while just for shits and giggles. It's fun. But this, I asked this the psychic, I was like, you know, what, what am I, you know, what's, what's down the road for me? Am I going to be monogamous? Am I going to be non monogamous? And she's like, oh, you're for sure going to be monogamous. She's like, you're not going to have a time in your life. She's like, you got two businesses, they're both going to be flourishing a lot more in the coming, coming year. And she's like, you're gonna, she's like, somebody's coming into your life and they're going to be, be a perfect fit for you. She said they're going to be exactly what you need, that you're not going to need to look outside the relationship for anything. I thought that was really interesting because part of me was relieved by that because I find dating to be exhausting and I don't, I personally don't really like it. I like the, the, the initial part of like that hunt, like, oh, like, who can I find? And you're always swiping and looking for somebody that can be fun. But I find the getting to know phase and like, and then, you know, you invest and then you realize that there's no value alignment. So you have to. Right. And it just, I don't know, it up a lot of my bandwidth. So. Yeah, yeah, totally know what you mean now by, by putting that on the list here because it takes up a lot, picks up a lot of bandwidth. [00:43:37] Speaker B: It does, yeah. But just to unpick what you were saying about open relationships, and again, I've not been in one, but I guess that that open part can be purely sex. I mean, for others it might be where it's more of an emotional thing, you know, where they've Got multiple partners. And I might use the wrong terms here. Do you mean. But you know, but that's the other thing that's kind of struck me around again, not, not wanting to generalize too much, but kind of gay men, in terms of being able to almost have sex and it can be quite, almost mechanical, maybe that's the wrong word. But you know, it's, it's not that emotional side. It's purely about what, it's, it's about. [00:44:20] Speaker A: The physical, like transactional I would use. [00:44:24] Speaker B: Yeah, thank you. [00:44:26] Speaker A: Yeah. And that's, you know, when I, when I go back and forth between monogamy and non monogamy as a demisexual, it's a little different to navigate. And for those of you who don't know what demisexuality is, it's where you need emotional connection for sexual arousal. So for me, if I were to be in an open relationship, it would have to be open to, to, to loving another person because that's where, you know, for me I'm, I'm, I'm thriving. Right. So for me, casual sex doesn't really do it for me and I think, think I need to have that connection built. So it brings the other, another element into me questioning whether non monogamy would work for me because a lot of people open up a relationship sexually because, you know, they want that variety and then they can keep the relationship quite safe that way. Right. It's like just sex, you know, and some couples even have rules of like not sleeping with them over again. You can have or do it when we're traveling or like, and those, and that can really work for some couples. And, and for me that wouldn't work. So I feel like an open relationship with, for me would be playing with fire because, you know, and that would lead probably to more polyamory, which I don't really think I want that because I, I have this, this idea of having one partner that I want to build a life with, not several. [00:45:38] Speaker B: So see, that could work for me because actually I, I do like that, that thrill of, of that one, you know, like a one night stand and you know, and yeah, I, I, yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:45:51] Speaker A: That's wonderful. And I think, you know, it's, it's really, you know, the world's our oyster when it comes to relationships. I think it's really beautiful that we can, we can build them and mold them how we want. I think one of the challenges though is we need to find somebody that wants to, that wants to share that same value. Right. So Whether it's, it's monogamy, polyamory, you know, non monogamy, whatever. It's. We need to find the value alignment to, to those desires and that can be challenging in our community because there's a lot, you know, in the brotherhood, in the gaming's brotherhood, we often will, you know, put posts or we create content on open or closed relationships and oh, you should read the comments. It's so divisive. Right? You have like people that are hardcore set up in the monogamy camp and you have people that are hardcore set up in the non monogamy camp and it's like, you know, whereas I've kind of learned to play in the gray and really look at it through like they both bring tons of value and you know, excitement and different things and you just got to find what works for you for. [00:46:49] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And just being honest with the other person in terms of what you're kind of wanting. Yeah. Although I guess that can change over time, but, but then so can a lot of things, can't they? [00:47:00] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Okay, well maybe let's transition into a bit about the conversation about doing our inner work, you know. Know, I'd love to know just even in the last few years you said since you wrote the book, like what have you been doing as far as focusing on yourself so you have more capacity for relationships just in general, whether, depending on whatever structure you want. [00:47:26] Speaker B: Yeah, I think one of the things I've been doing is not having finding a relationship or kind of dating being my purest focus. So to make sure that I had other stuff going on in terms of, you know, things that I get enjoyment or fulfillment from. So going back to that long term relationship with 15 years, we were both kind of introverted, we lived in this little bubble and, and kind of didn't really socialize much with other people, which was completely fine until that kind of popped. And then, you know, and, and I was found myself kind of alone and not having that kind of network of, of kind of friends around me. And, and, and yeah, that's probably one of the biggest things that I've kind of learned over the past couple of years just how important friendships are and my circle of friends are still quite small, but they're people who I feel like I can rely on. So that's I think really important. And one of the things that I've kind of learned and having interest so that, you know, I, I don't feel lonely, you know, and, and I do feel fulfilled so that I'M not looking for someone to, to, to fulfill me or, you know, to kind of occupy my time. Right, yeah, so that's probably the biggest thing. [00:48:53] Speaker A: Yeah, it sounds like maybe you have more of a. You lean towards more of an anxious attachment style where you, you tend to get more preoccupied with your relationships and you, that person becomes your person. Right. So yeah, it sounds like the work you've done is really like cultivating more independence and having hobbies and learning how to, to take care of yourself and have friendships. Yeah. [00:49:17] Speaker B: Because I don't know how this fits with that, but one of the things that I've observed is that I'm a bit of a, a caretaker within a relationship. [00:49:25] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:49:26] Speaker B: So, yeah, definitely. Yeah. Trying to take on people's problems and trying to fix them. [00:49:35] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I believe in the show notes of this episode, you can. There's a link that's, we'll say this is for the, the viewer, listener to learn about your attachment style. And we have a quiz on our website that you can take to find out what your attachment style is. So. Yeah, yeah, I think that's the biggest one, honestly. That's why we have that link on our website. It's like so important for, you know, all the things that we're working with in, in community and you know, the mission that we have and the mission that I have in my personal practice as well is to help people heal so they can empower themselves into their authentic self so they can have in, you know, authentic relationships. That's what this is all about. We want, we want gay men to feel safe, to be able to enter connection and bring, bring their whole self in connection. You know, their fears, their insecurities, their wants, desires, all of that, it's all, all welcome outcome. And I think that's the inner work that needs to be done. So whether that's, you know, for myself, it was a lot of trauma healing. I had to go through a lot of trauma healing work and part of it was, you know, childhood trauma and part of it was the trauma of growing up gay, which I think is. It's very, very traumatic growing up gay. And we, we learn from a very young age to hide who we are. And part of being in intimacy is revealing yourself. So that's, that's the inner conflict. It's like I have a desire for intimacy, but I have a very strong fear of revealing who I am authentically. And that leads to inability to be able to show up and be in intimacy. So I think that actually is the root of intimacy. Avoidance in our community is a deep fear of wanting, of, of not wanting to reveal who we actually are because we spent most of our lives masked up. Right. Like pretending to be straight, pretending to be masculine, pretending to be successful, pretending to be all the things because we didn't want to have to, you know, sit with the, the shame, the inadequacy, the things that we may have, have experienced when we were younger. So. [00:51:35] Speaker B: And you've just reminded me there of the other thing which I think might be quite common is. I don't know why, but to, to put people in tribes, you know, and it's kind of, you know, and, and then to. It can almost narrow in terms of what you might be thinking you're looking for in terms of a particular person based on, you know, what they look like rather than actually who they are. [00:51:58] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I kind of, I don't really like that about our community, to be honest. Or just human beings in general. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like all these little subgroups and then like, you know, being labeled like an otter or a bear or all these things. I don't know, it just kind of feels like. Yeah, it doesn't. I like more vastness. I like to just be able to show up and be whoever I want to be and not I have to be like pigeonholed into labels. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anything else that you feel is important to, to this topic, we can start to land the plane here. [00:52:38] Speaker B: Yeah. I guess my biggest takeaways are, I think first of all, I think it is okay to be single and, and kind of, you know, just kind of taking that kind of pressure away from. From kind of thinking that you have to be in a relationship. And as we've kind of touched on, I think it's really important that you work on you as a person before working on kind of you as a couple and. Yes. And not for dating to be your only purpose. Otherwise I think that can be very. That would be quite soul destroying, I think, and kind of quite isolated and you know, like if you're literally just thinking that you, you have to be in a relationship relationship to, you know, to be someone so to not have that your own worth being dependent on, on another person. [00:53:26] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I love that. And I'll, I'll piggyback on that and just say, I guess maybe just provide hope to people that, you know. Because this is, I think this is the biggest pain point that I see people reaching out, you know, even in my practice or in the brotherhood, just really struggling, struggling with Deep, deep loneliness. I think that's one of the biggest epidemics in our. In our community is people are so lonely and they want connection really badly. And I think it's, you know, oftentimes when there's. When we're feeling starved of connection, it's the universe's way of. Of saying we need to connect with ourselves. Right. Like, I'm a firm believer that we can only receive love from somebody else as deep as we've loved ourselves. And that is really important. I think people so focus on the relationship with yourself. That's. That's definitely important. And that doesn't mean that you have to be in. Do that in isolation. You can still do that while you're dating and while you're having all these failed relationships and quotation marks, you can still be loving yourself and going to therapy and coaching and. And these sorts of things. But I want to. I want to provide hope to people that, you know, when you do that, because I'm experiencing it now, like, relationships get easier. People start to be attracted to you, and it doesn't feel like this. This hunt that you're hunting for your person. It's more like the people will just come when your heart is open and you're ready to receive the love that's meant for you. Yeah. [00:55:00] Speaker B: And that. I also think that connection that you're talking about doesn't have to be via a kind of, you know, a boyfriend or partner or anything like that. You know, you can obviously get that in different ways. And that's probably not going back to the thing that I probably learned most over the last couple of years. [00:55:18] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. I agree. And even in hookups like I've had, I've had, and maybe this isn't a hookup, but make you go for a dinner date and you go for a walk after and you decide that you want to go back to, you know, their place and you have great sex and you lay there and you cuddle after. That is very satiating, very fulfilling. And it's a beautiful contagion. Dinner to practice intimacy. Right. It's so, again, it doesn't have to be like, quick bang, I'm out. It can be like, maybe slow it down, prepare yourself for. And go for a dinner and then go and hang out after and take your time with somebody and truly practice dating. Because I think there's a lot of intimacy waiting to be explored. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I want to thank you for coming on, and I want to give you an opportunity just to let people know where they can find this, this lovely book of yours. [00:56:10] Speaker B: So most kind of online retail outlets. Yeah, obviously the bigger one begin with A, but there's more local ones as well. [00:56:19] Speaker A: Okay, yeah, great. And you can be found on Instagram at 40. Underscore single. Underscore gay. Okay. Is there any anywhere else you'd like people to reach out to if they want to connect with you? [00:56:31] Speaker B: Say that again. [00:56:32] Speaker A: Is there anywhere else that you would want somebody to reach out to you if they wanted to connect with, with you? [00:56:36] Speaker B: Yeah. So that's. So Instagram is probably the. The better one. Yeah, that's kind of me. [00:56:42] Speaker A: Okay. Yeah. Great. Awesome. Well, thanks for coming on and sharing your experience. It's been a nice, nice conversation. I've enjoyed it. And yeah, for the listener, viewer, if you enjoyed what you heard today, you can give us a. A star rating on your favorite podcast platform and on, on YouTube. I would love to hear what, what, what? How are you navigating relationships right now? What are your struggles? What are your successes? I'd love to hear both from people. So if you want to drop some comments in the YouTube video, we'd love to hear them. And yeah, again, thanks, Jonathan. [00:57:21] Speaker B: Thank you. [00:57:22] Speaker A: Yeah, see.