Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Speaker A: Hello everyone. Welcome to Gay Men Going Deeper, a podcast by the Gay Men's Brotherhood where we talk about personal development, mental health and sexuality. We are host Today we have Matt Lancedle. He's a counselor and facilitator specializing in healing and empowerment. And I am Michael Diario. I am a life and wellness coach specializing in sexuality, relationships and self confidence. We each have our own private practice, but in this podcast we're sharing all of our best stuff.
And today we have a big topic. Today it was so big, in fact, we had to split it in two. So this episode and the next one are about finding connection in the gay community. In part one, today we'll be talking about loneliness and our experiences seeking connection in the gay community. And then in the next episode, we'll be talking about how to connect with other gay men in a way that is authentic and meaningful. We'll also talk about platonic intimacy. And we'll give you some amazing resources and ways to find the connections you're seeking.
We'll be continuing this discussion on the last Thursday of the month in the Gay Men's Brotherhood Zoom Hangout. This is where we give you guys a chance to share your own thoughts on the topics we discuss here. To get the Zoom link, please join us in the Gay Men's Brotherhood private group or you can get on our mailing list. The information is in the show notes and on the day before the event, we'll send you the Zoom link reminder that this podcast and YouTube channel are listener and viewer supported. So. So if you enjoy what we are creating here, you can support us by making a donation to the show using the link in the show notes. And you could also subscribe to get early access to episodes on Apple Podcasts. All your support helps us to continue making content and supporting the community, so we thank you very much in advance.
And if you're looking to accelerate your personal development journey, please check out our coaching collection. It includes two courses, Healing youg Shame and Building Better relationships. Plus over 45 premium personal development coaching videos on body positivity, relationships, self confidence and community. For more on that, please head to Gay Men Going Deeper dot com.
All right, so I've got a bit of a longer intro than usual here, but I promise you guys it's worth it.
We are covering a pretty big topic today, so I think it's worth setting the stage.
If you've been following us in the Gay Men's Brotherhood and the podcast, you'll know that this month we're talking about addiction and recovery and the last two episodes were about that. And one of the things that we talked about in those episodes was that at the core of addiction and or compulsive behaviors is an emotional trigger, which is basically a negative emotion that we want to escape from or get some kind of relief from that turns into a craving, which becomes a ritual, which then turns into some kind of addiction or compulsive behavior. For more on that, please go listen to the last two episodes. They're really good. Some really good stuff there for you. But the point is that I want to bring into today's episodes is that very often that emotional trigger is loneliness.
It is one of the biggest points and dare I say the biggest that we see in our community. This is, I'm speaking from Matt and I hear this is from our, our one on one clients, from our men's groups, from the actual gay Men's Brotherhood Facebook group. Even in the YouTube comments you guys are telling us this. So we hear this a lot and we've talked about loneliness quite a bit on this podcast in various forms. So I want to give you a little bit of a recap from the different types of loneliness that we can experience.
And you could have a combination of these or maybe just some of them. But I want to share this with you because knowing what kind of loneliness or types you might be feeling will really help you understand the solution as well. And so as you hear me say these, think about which ones apply to you. Okay, so first there's four total. So first there's emotional loneliness. And this is that feeling of lacking genuine closeness with another human. It's kind of like that feeling of wanting to connect with someone on a deeper, emotionally intimate level and not having it. That feels very painful to us because we want this thing that we do not have. So those of you can still have lots of friends and family and people. You could be surrounded by people in your life but still feel that pain of loneliness, that emotional loneliness. Okay, that's number one.
Number two is social loneliness. And that's lacking a sense of belonging to a particular social group or community, which leaves you feeling isolated and excluded. So we hear this a lot. The gay community is this thing over here, very far away from me, a gay man. And you don't feel like part of it. You feel like the gay community is happening outside of you and you and you're excluded from that. Okay. The third one is situational loneliness.
This is often temporary, that just arises from a specific circumstance. So think of a stay at home, single parent or Perhaps during lockdown and Covid. If you lived alone, that would have been a situation where loneliness could have been very much a trigger for you. Or if you're living a nomadic or transient lifestyle where you don't really put down roots, this is situational. And then the fourth one can really be a combination of all of the above. And that's chronic loneliness. This is more persistent, long term feeling of being disconnected from other people. It can be very low grade. That's just always there beneath the surface. So much so that you feel like it's just always there and it becomes part of your identity over time. Okay, so think about how those ones impact you. It might be all four, maybe just one. Okay. In this episode, though, we really want to focus on your connection with the gay community specifically.
And a lot of you tell us the reason why we're doing this episode. A lot of you tell us that you feel disconnected from the gay community.
And I see this sentiment a lot in the Gay Men's Brotherhood Facebook group. And like I said on, on our, on the comments you guys leave on our Instagram and on our social medias. And I understand why, because we're sold this story about what the gay community looks like and feels like on social media. And if you're on Instagram, and I know a lot of you are, you're seeing all the other gays having fun all the time. They have lots of friends. And not only that, they got perfect bodies and sexy boyfriends. And it's really easy to sell the story that everyone has connection but us, and that creates even more of a feeling of being isolated or lonely. Okay, so social media has a big part to play in this really important.
But when I say those words, isolated and lonely, likely an image comes to mind of someone who is reclusive or maybe socially awkward, sitting alone at home in the dark. Right? But in my personal experience with loneliness for myself and also with my clients, that's not at all what it looks like. That's not what loneliness or isolation looks like. What it often looks like is regular guys like me and Matt and you living regular lives. Get up, go to work, talk to your loved ones as if everything is normal. You might even have a social circle, roommates, and maybe even a partner. But under the surface, you could still feel lonely. And I've been there. I'm saying this to you from personal experience. I've been in bars full of other gay guys and just felt like I don't belong here. I felt like I don't relate to the conversations people are having around me, specifically with gay men. So it's like I'm there in body, but I'm totally emotionally disconnected. It's like everyone's mouths are moving, but I'm in my own head, drowning in my own insecurities and my own mental noise about how I don't belong.
But what I've learned is I'm not alone. And I'm sure there's a lot of you who kind of like nodding your heads right now, being like, oh, yeah, I've been there. That makes sense. That's what that feels like. And here's the thing. We don't talk about it. I didn't talk about it until very recently because there's so much shame around it. And we suffer in silen, which only, of course, as we know, if you're regular listeners, compounds and intensifies that feeling.
Think about it. Those of you who listen to this podcast regularly, maybe follow me on social media. You'll see that I have my friends and family and loved ones and all these things. And if I told you, hey, I feel lonely and I feel isolated, you wouldn't believe me. You'd say, oh, but Michael, you have all these people who love you. Like, I see you on Instagram, you're going out, you're having fun, you're doing these things. You have. You have so much love in your life. You have a great family. You shouldn't be feeling this way. And that's just it, I think. I think a lot of people who have loneliness or who are disconnected from the gay community or feel disconnected from the gay community, they feel like, oh, I shouldn't feel that way.
So we don't talk about it. I shouldn't feel this way. So I'm not going to talk about it. Something's wrong with me, obviously. And so we don't talk about it. And that's exactly what we're doing here today. We are going to talk about it.
Yeah. So in the next episode, we're going to give you some ideas and solutions and support. But today is really about sharing our own experiences, our own real life, lived experiences.
And we want to remove the stigma and bring it out into the open. So we've got some really good stuff here today. I hope you guys are excited, for lack of a better word, to dig into this, because I do think it's really important.
Yeah. So, Matt, what would you want to add to that?
[00:09:18] Speaker B: Well, good job. That was really good. It stimulated a lot of things for me.
I think maybe I'm I'm quite introverted. I'm very content being alone. I wasn't really impacted significantly by something like Covid, but I, I see aloneness and loneliness as different. So I want to maybe make that distinction because I think there's going to be a lot of introverted people that listen to this as well.
Aloneness is choosing to be alone. Right. And it's empowered solidarity or what's the word I'm.
[00:09:55] Speaker A: Solitude.
[00:09:56] Speaker B: Solitude. Yeah, exactly. It's empowered solitude.
Whereas loneliness, we don't choose it. It's the desire is there and we can't meet it. Right. And aloneness is. The desire is not there. There's nothing to meet. So for me, the two things that really stood out what of what you shared were social loneliness.
It's interesting when you were describing like being out in the, you know, amongst other gay, gay guys and feeling like you're just not relating to any of the conversations that's happening. It's just like everything seems so surface level and it's like, it's, you know, and my, what my experience is too, whenever I go out and hang out with the groups of gay men is everything is so highly sexualized too. It's always like sexual in inuendo, sexual jokes, talking about, you know, like cracking jokes about people being bossy bottoms and it's just like, it's just so much like that. And I get there's a place for that and I can laugh with it too. But when it becomes like that's the only way to, to connect, it just seems like it's just not what I seek. So I, I definitely experience social loneliness.
And then one of the other ones I would say probably would be, that I would add to the list would probably be like sexual or intimacy loneliness, like not having met, at least in the way that, that I desire to have those needs met. So.
But yeah, I'm trying to think if there was anything else that you said off the top that.
No, I think pretty good. Yeah.
[00:11:25] Speaker A: Why don't we talk about our, our own experience with loneliness. So what has been your history with this?
[00:11:37] Speaker B: I think, you know, when I think about it, I had a deep loneliness as a child.
As soon as I realized I was gay, I realized I was gay around 5 years old.
And I always knew there was something different about me and I always knew that I had to kind of hold back parts of myself. And so I think I had this really deep seated part or like injury around not feeling connected to in the truth of who I was, which doesn't surprise me that I created a brand called Inspired to be Authentic. Right. It's all about being authentic, being your authentic self so you can find meaningful connection.
Because I really didn't have a lot of meaningful connection when I was younger. I felt like I had to hide. I couldn't, I didn't really connect with men very well. And all of my friends became women very quickly because I felt safe with them. So I, I, there was just a real significant rupture around that and then significant anxiety around gay men was present. So when I started going to, I think I went to my first gay bar when I was 18 and I, at that time I was in active addiction and I was dealing with.
Well, it was probably loneliness, now that I think about it, because I was, I was really horny. I wanted to get these needs met that I was craving to have sex, wasn't getting these needs met because I didn't know how. So I was using drugs as a way to kind of cope with that.
And I think when I went to my very first gay bar, I think I went alone and I was so terrified to go in. And I think I just went in for like 10 minutes and I had like total anxiety and then I just ended up leaving.
And so, yeah, I think loneliness for me, I, I, and maybe part of my, my introversion. I think, you know, a good part of my introversion is authentic. I'm pretty an introverted person. But I think some of it might be a defense mechanism too, like hyper independence. It's like I, it's, it's, it's an easy way for, for the ego to help us out so we don't have to feel the pain of loneliness is, it's like I don't really like people anyway or I don't need connection anyway. Right. We kind of play off, play it off like as if we don't need it.
And I think my ego was very, very adaptive in those younger years at convincing me that I didn't have a lot of needs that I actually had. And I think I'm coming full circle now and realiz I have a lot of these needs, but I'm also, you know, and then I went through this period actually when in my 20s where I, I started to override a lot of authentic desire and I started to just do things that, that I thought I needed to do to fit in. Right. Like I was drinking, I was being very promiscuous. And maybe even at that time too, it was, it, it probably was actually desires to not just it wasn't all inauthentic. But then when I started to get into my late twenties, I realized that I don't want to drink alcohol, I don't want to do drugs, I don't want to have, you know, random sex and these sorts of things. And I found that it was hard for me to find connection in the gay community because a lot of the things that I was seeing in the community were built on those as foundations. You know, like bath houses, bars, clubs, these sorts of things, they're, they really revolve around the use of substances and, and sex and things like that. So not saying that there isn't. Especially nowadays. I think back when we were younger, there wasn't, it was like the gay bar was the option. There was no scruff, there was no grinder. There was none of that like manhunt, I think was the only thing that I had access to which was not, wasn't even an app. It was like on your desktop. So you'd be at home like, you know, so that was like a more of a hookup thing.
[00:15:26] Speaker A: So.
[00:15:26] Speaker B: Yeah, so I would say I'm still, I'm still dealing with some loneliness, more so social loneliness. I don't feel like I have a, a group. Like I said when I, when I came to Toronto to meet you, it was so nice to see you and like the, and, and you just did the episode on Chosen Family as well, which was really cool. So I don't feel like I have that in the gay world. I have that in very much in friends and, and stuff. But they're not gay, so they don't.
Where I do have that is online. So it's kind of fragmented. I have these fragmented pockets. I'd love to have more of a connection to a community of what, you know, where I'm living to be able to have people to go out with. But again, it's like, what is everybody doing on the weekends? The, the crews that I have connected with, whether it's through hockey or through these ways that I've connected with people, it's always about getting shit faced and going out to the bars, right? And it's like, and, and I can tolerate that to a certain point. And I've done that. I've been sober for, you know, out going out many, many times. But I find usually midnight, I'm like, okay, time to go. Because people start getting handsy and disinhibited. So they start to make advances that are just feel inappropriate. Their boundaries get, you know, a bit blurry. These Sorts of things. And it just becomes almost like, you know, I don't know if any of the listeners out there that have gone out to the bar sober, they just, they know what I'm talking about. It's like you, you're working at two different speeds. Alcohol starts to slow down people in a way. And then we're operating, you know, as a sober person operating more.
So you just see things that it's kind of like.
So yeah, I'd love to connect with, you know, with other groups of, of gay guys doing things like maybe hiking or whatever. And I know they're, they're out there. I think I also need to put in better effort in, in finding that. But yeah, and then the last thing I'll say is I went to a retreat, I was facilitating at a retreat in Costa Rica recently and I was around, there was 30 of us, 30 other gay men and everybody shared my interest in spirituality and psychology and it was just so nice to be connected to, to other, other gay men that think a lot of the way that I think. And, and it was a non sexual retreat, so there wasn't sexual energy where everybody was being asked to contain their sexual energy.
Obviously no substances were being used. And it just really made me feel like, oh, this is, this, this feels like home. So I want to try and those experiences more so I can get those needs met.
[00:18:02] Speaker A: Yeah, that's, that's beautiful. I think that that's one of the things that I feel lucky in, in that I can connect with other gay men in the ways that are maybe more stereotypical sex bars. Like I, I do genuinely, genuinely enjoy that scene.
[00:18:20] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:18:21] Speaker A: My experience of loneliness is that that's only like a sliver for me. For me, like it's not my whole pie. It used to be my whole pie. But that's kind of where things started to go awry with me is something was missing as I, as I changed, as I evolved, as I grew, something changed. And so now it's more so like what you had said, it's like, okay, yeah, I can do these things here and it's fun and I can get that need met. But it's harder to find people like you who I can connect with on the same things. Like a lot of stuff that you had said, I also enjoy. Right. But that's not as easy to find. Or I maybe, maybe what it is actually is people don't lead with that as often as they do, let's say with their bodies or with sex or parties and whatnot. But I Do genuinely know from my own experiences that a lot of people have. That have these interests, but they're not at the front of. They don't present with it, but they're there. And that's something that I've learned is, like, don't judge a book by its cover, because there is a lot more depth in the community. And that's part of what my. My mission is as well, is like, okay, let's. Yeah, okay, we know we can do that. We know we can be pretty. We can have fun. Okay, yeah, we're good at that. What else can we do? And that's why I love doing this podcast and the work that we do.
[00:19:33] Speaker B: Yeah, I like that. And that's actually. It's a good reminder for me, too, because I know, and probably even on the episode, there may even be some audience members that think I'm a little hard on the community, and I think I can even be hard on the community, too. But I think my mission has been to point out the things that have been in, according to my beliefs, are dysfunctional in our community. So we can start. And I. I think I'm at a point now where I'm rewriting this, and I'm starting to see this, actually, because maybe I'm not telling the story as much that there's not a lot of depth in the community. And as you, you know, as we know, when we tell a story, it gets reinforced. Our subconscious mind looks for it. We find it, right? So if I. If I tell the story of shallowness in the community, I'm going to always find shallowness in the community. So I think I'm learning to talk more about depth. And. And I had. I recently had an experience, too, where that happened, right? There was. I did have a sexual experience, experience with a guy. And afterwards, we were, like, kind of, like, laying there, and we started talking, and we were talking about trauma, and we were talking about things that happened, you know, and he was sharing some things about his life, and it just. It felt nice to connect like that. And I was like, okay, this is interesting that the universe is. Is showing me these things. And then at the retreat, same thing, right? Like, there was a ton of depth and. And a lot of hurt, right? And people just burying themselves. And that's. I think that's. For me, that's more what I want. Like, I want people to feel more safe, to take off their mas. Like, because I know we all, as human beings, we all have dark places. We all have insecurities, hurt, pain, these sorts of things. And I think it's just important that we.
We. We share that. Right. Like, in, obviously in inappropriate ways, but because that's where we can have.
[00:21:14] Speaker A: You.
[00:21:14] Speaker B: Know, things like vulnerability. And for me, that's like a big part of. Of what actually causes arousal and connection for me. Right. And so that's a big need that I have. I have a need for people to be able to show up and be real and. And authentic. So. But I like how you put that, because it's. It is. And it's. It's. It's part of my rewriting of. Of my story, and I'm looking forward to being able to share more experience, experiences of connection and of depth in our community because it is out there. And, you know, this. This community that we're creating is a testament to that, because the people that are comfortable leading with it are coming out in droves and being like, yep, that's me, me, me, me.
[00:21:53] Speaker A: Right? Yeah.
[00:21:54] Speaker B: Like, I have this capacity, like, don't forget about me over here. I'm like, yes. Yeah.
[00:22:00] Speaker A: And that's exactly what it's about.
[00:22:01] Speaker B: Right.
[00:22:01] Speaker A: And that's part of my mission, is like, this is what I think confuses people about. About me is like, oh, wait a minute. Like on the podcast episodes, like, oh, wait, you did this episode about, you know, dick pics, and now you're doing this episode about spirituality. Like, pick a side. And I say, no, I will not pick a side, because that's who I am. I can do both. And if you can play with me in both arenas, great. Come join me. But if you really want me to be one, I'm sorry, I'm not your guy. I can't be one or the other. But that's just. Just. That's just me. That's just who I am.
[00:22:28] Speaker B: Yeah. I like that. I love that. That's what I love about you.
[00:22:30] Speaker A: Yeah. Do you think. Do you think that if we had met outside of the way we met, like, if we had met at a bar or something, that we would be. We would find each other and become friends?
[00:22:39] Speaker B: Yeah. And just because the reason why is because it's so. It's less about the.
The interests maybe that we have shared together, and it's more about energy. Like, you and I have a very similar energy.
Yeah. So I think we would have. For sure. Yeah.
[00:22:56] Speaker A: I. I imagine it. If I could imagine. I imagine it would be at a bar, and it would be one of those moments where, like, I would just be like, okay, I need.
[00:23:02] Speaker B: I need a break.
[00:23:02] Speaker A: And I Would go outside to get some fresh air, which I do all the time, and you would be outside getting some fresh air. I'd be like, oh, he's cute.
I'm gonna go say hi to him.
[00:23:11] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:23:11] Speaker A: And I would say, how do you. Out of that? It would be probably born out of, oh, he's cute. Because that's just. I mean, that's me. I can't deny who I am. And I would go talk to you, but you know, I would surely of course, find all of the rest of you. And I think that's how it would go. That's what I gotta tell myself.
[00:23:24] Speaker B: I love that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's. It's been so nice actually working with you for that reason because you do have both of those sides. Right. And I think it's interesting because that I was, I was that side in my 20s, so I understand that very much. And then I develop more of this side. Right. So it's gonna be interesting to see what maybe my 40s entail. Maybe these sides all come back together. But I'm. I'm trying to also still navigate my demisexuality and what that means to me and how I can get those needs met. But I'm also learning right now the value of friends with benefits and connecting in that area and, and not having. Just because somebody doesn't maybe check all the boxes off. Can I still connect with them in intimate ways and still build the container that I need as a demisexual and, and have that. Right. Like, because I'm a sexual being and I love having sex. It's just. It needs to happen for me in a way that feels good for me. Right. And I used to self sacrifice and I used to, you know, do it and it just. I always was left feeling yuck, you know what I mean? Because it's like, it's just, it's the connection for me that makes it good. So. So yeah, I think, you know, just it's coming like something is shifting for me in the sense of being able to feel more safe with connection and, and whatnot. So yeah, yeah.
[00:24:42] Speaker A: I feel like my, my shift kind of went. We, we both went through that phase where sex was the kind of thing that we used to try to fill the void, which obviously didn work because the void wasn't going to be filled with at least the sex kind of sex I was having was not filling the void that I actually had. Which is why at the beginning I kind of led with what kind of loneliness are you feeling? Yeah, but what happened with me is as I went through my, my dark night of the soul period, I unveiled, revealed different access maybe is the word, different layers of myself, more depth to myself. And when I went back out into the community, I was like, well, you can't unsee, you can't undo it. Like now that I've gone through that kind of inward journey, there's no going back. So it's like, oh no, these are all now very disappointing connections. And that's how, that's how I was like, oh shit. Like I do want something more. And it's a good segue into our next question which is what's been your experience with now finding connection? So we talked a little bit about the experience of loneliness in the gay community. How have you found that connection?
[00:25:49] Speaker B: Yeah, I guess it's the tale of two stories for me.
The first story being that I was more interested in some of the mainstream things, right in my twenties. I, I was very connected in my twenties actually. I had, I had a long term boyfriend that I was with for eight years. And although him and I, we didn't really connect much with the gay community. But then when we split up I got really involved in a lot of things and started well, co founded Calgary's first gay hockey team. And that was really, that brought me a lot of connection as well. And again at those times I was probably drinking and partying and, and those sorts of things. So I felt really, I felt like my bucket was filled.
But the area that I never felt like my bucket was filled was this area, right? And that was that video that I created that kind of started all this. That was me saying, this is so annoying. Like I have, you know, pockets over here. I can have sex, I can have parties, I can have this. But where are my depth brothers? Like where are my psychologically spiritually focused, metaphysical, you know, gay and queer people? And they were nowhere to be seen. And then, so, so, you know, that was the area that was. And that's the biggest area for me. Like that's so, so big because that's a huge part of my life.
So yeah, I would say that. And then, and so where I'm at now too, this is interesting. I wanted to bring this up too and maybe this is a little bit off topic from the question, but I, I wanted to bring voice to it too is that I find that I actually have quite a bit of trust issues with gay men which impairs my ability to be able to connect. So there's a couple things that, that come up for Me. And I've, I've had experiences with friends where I, I hang out with them, get close to them and then like their boyfriends don't want them hanging out with me because maybe they're threatened by me or they're jealous or something like that. And then so that's been hurtful. So like, there's like a part of me that like is hesitant of getting close to other guys, especially if they're partnered.
And then I've also had the other experience where guys with bad intentions start connecting with, with me or my partner and try and kind of get in between. So there's this, I think there's this notion that like, you know, and there's a lot of people that are like open in our community too. And there's this, some people that come from that, that camp. I think they think that everyone is open so they approach even people that are in monogamous relationships as if they're open. And there's this, this thing, that mentality that it's a free for all, for everybody. But so I think I've, I've noticed that in the community that I see that there is a lack of boundaries.
And whenever I see see lack of boundaries in somebody, it immediately kind of makes me not trust.
And then the areas that I'm really seeking connections as well is platonic. So I have like an equal part platonic romantic desire to connect with gay men. And the area like that I feel I'm struggling to find connection would be in the platonic camp because the, But I, I, I've also had the experience of, you know, wanting connection and then feelings start developing. Right? So, and that's what we're going to talk about in, in the second part of this episode is how can we have platonic connections with other gay men without it having to be primarily about sex? And I'm, I can be guilty of that too. Like if, right? Like, it's, it's, it's, it's hard not to. Right? Like when we're attracted to somebody, you know, they're, and we're trying to be friends with them, it can be really challenging, right? And I think in heteronormative circles it' that tends to be why women hang out with women and men hang out with men and you know, there's not a ton of crossover because it can be challenging when the attraction is there. But I would like to explore that with you further. Like, how can we do that? How can we be more boundaried as, as gay men and and lead with, also lead with desire to have platonic connection as well. I know that's going to be in the second part, so we'll, we'll leave it for that. But what was the original question? What's been your experience with finding connection in the gay community?
Yeah, I would say it's been challenging lately. I will say that. Like, again, it's been, it's been quite fragmented for me. So I'm, I'm reconciling a lot of this stuff right now though. It's really interesting. There's a lot of healing that's taking place and I think some of it is as I'm navigating and going through my, my attachment trauma healing journey, like I'm still on my own attachment trauma healing journey. I'm coming more towards the end of it.
It's, I'm starting to experience more safety in myself, more safety in my nervous system, more safety and trusting, you know, trusting life, trusting the process of life, trusting myself, trusting others. So it's making it easier to find connection. So I see this being actually a big part of my 2024.
The year of 2024 for me is going to be more about connection and socializing. Whereas the last, you know, three, four years has been very, very hermit energy and I've been doing a lot of deep healing and I haven't been putting myself out there much. So I think there's, there's some big shifts happening and I'm pretty excited about what that means.
[00:31:17] Speaker A: Yeah, ask a follow up question always.
[00:31:20] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:31:20] Speaker A: Yeah. I think that there are people out there who will, who follow us in the brotherhood on social media and they'll say, how can these two guys feel disconnected? It. You have so many people, you have so many followers. You, you know, you have all these things. What would you say to those people? Or we both live in big cities, right. So we have so much going for us, but unquote. What would you say to those people who kind of don't believe that we do feel disconnected?
[00:31:51] Speaker B: It makes me chuckle because I get this all the time and we see like so many comments on YouTube are like, you know, when. Well, my, the pretty privileged podcast that I did and I talked about some of the self worth stuff that I. Issues that I have and my insecurities around my looks and my AC scars and these sorts of things and you know, just people laughing at that and I just think it's like loneliness, self worth, these sort of things. It doesn't matter what you look like, it doesn't it's, it's, it's an experience and it's the feeling of being connected to people. It's not the image of being connected to people. It's not the right. And, and some of us with trauma or shame issues, we struggle or low self worth, we struggle with feeling connected to people. So never judge a book by its cover. And you know, again, like, we all have core wounds as human beings and, and core, core like beliefs of that are self limiting. Like, I'm not worthy, I'm not good enough. I'm not lovable, I'm an. I'm unimportant, I will be betrayed. Like, we all carry these big, big kahuna core wounds in our subconscious. And however many followers you have, whatever you look like, it doesn't mean really at the end of the day. And it, sometimes it can actually create more wounding because when people see people that are attractive or have large followings or are really connected, they can be jealous and they can outcast those people. They can be mean to them. They can leave mean and nasty comments on their work, and that can cause injury too. So again, nothing is ever as it appears.
[00:33:16] Speaker A: Yeah, well said. Yeah, very well said. And it also proves the point that we talk about a lot, which is these things do not bring you the external things like people on the outside. Even a relationship does not solve your loneliness problem because that's the thing people will go to. And I'm saying people, it was me go to sex and, and other people like, oh, I'm feeling lonely. I'm gonna just go throw myself on all these things here. But if you don't do that inner work, if you don't learn about vulnerability, authenticity, the things that it truly takes to connect true intimacy, you could have all the friends in the world. You can have a partner if you want. You're still gonna have the potential to feel lonely if you're not getting that emotional need met. So it is very much an inside job, as we often say here.
[00:34:01] Speaker B: Yeah. When we have so many podcasts, that can be a testament to that. Like the inside job podcast is one of them. Well, and even the sexual intimacy podcast, part one and part two is really all about connection and moving towards connection.
The secure relationships episode, we have so many episodes that can help people understand the nature of this. And we'll talk about that, I think in part two.
[00:34:23] Speaker A: So. Yeah.
[00:34:24] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:34:25] Speaker A: What was the question? What's been your experience? Finding connection.
[00:34:29] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:34:29] Speaker A: Okay. Yeah, I guess briefly for me, it. Finding connection. How do I say this in a way that's not going to sound terrible. Finding connections not. Wait, no, finding people is not an issue for me, okay? I live in the village of one of North America's biggest cities. We have a huge gay population. I could throw a rock and hit 10 gay guys, easy peasy. So that's not the issue.
Sex is not the issue. That's also fairly easy to find given where I live. And all the apps make it very easy as well. So my experience finding connection is not about that. It's really the real connection that I crave. So we talk about pseudo connection. Finding pseudo connection. For me, no problem. Problem easy. But I'm drowning in surface level connections. Lots of them, lots of people I know. Lots, lots of just people.
And again, don't, don't look at me and say, oh well, you don't, you can't, you don't feel lonely because look, you have all these people. It's really hard sometimes to connect with people. And anyone who listens to this, who lives in like a big city will understand what I mean. It's almost like there's a detriment to having so many options of people because we're very quick to be like, oh, nope, next. Oh, no, next. Okay, there's always another one, but where does that leave us? But alone, right? So it is much harder to find the deeper connections. Like you had said to say, hey, listen, I'm interested in these things here that are not typical of the gay community.
Spirituality, everything you had said, you know, nature, physics, metaphysics, all these things, like going deep into like really deep conversations, I love that. But not a lot of people lead with that. So that's been my challenge. It's the depth, it's not the quantity. It's a matter of quality. And that's where I still tend to have a harder time finding that. I mean, granted my, my close, my close friends, my chosen family, we are able to do that. But I will say it took a long time that in that episode, if you listen to it, we've been friends for a very long time and it was not at this, at the beginning of our friendship that we went there. It was through a lot of shit and adversity that we had to go through in our own lives and with each other where we kind of stumbled upon this close knit friendship. So I think that that's been an area that has been an issue for me. And I would say a lot of people that I talk to who do live in bigger cities, London, Melbourne, New York, Louisiana, West Hollywood, have clients in these cities. And they will say the same thing. It's. It's not just here.
[00:36:56] Speaker B: Yeah, I find that interesting because there's. I'd say Calgary is on. On like it's. It's a teetering point right now. Vancouver was very much like that. And that was the reason why I moved back is because there's.
There is that shiny. Way more shiny object syndrome, Right?
[00:37:12] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:37:12] Speaker B: And in Calgary, it's not as much like that. I find it's more down to earth here. The community is a little bit more inclusive.
Yeah. And there's this whole kind of like a mentality in some of these bigger cities that it's like this hierarchy. It feels like a big high school. And it's just like, that is such. And again, like, that's one of the things. And I'm trying to rewrite the story, but it's so hard when you continue to see that and you continue to see the meanness and the gossipiness in, in. In the culture, the gay culture. It's just, it's. Yeah, it's a lot. So again, I'm trying my best to let evidence that I gather speak for itself and not continue to use past evidence to create my current perception, you know, so it's almost like kind of like erasing. Like let's erase stuff and let's just stay in the present moment. And whatever I gather in that moment, just. Just see it for what it is and not constantly putting it through the filter of past experiences. It's a very hard thing to do. But I think the more conscious, the more work that we do on ourselves, we can do that. We can actually, you know, like you always say, the space between stimulus and response is the spot where you can make a choice. Well, the more spiritual work, the more personal development work you do, the bigger that gap gets and the more you're able to kind of say, okay, what am I filtering this current perception through? Right. Like, is it going through a gaze, you know, mean gaze and this sort of. Right. Or is it going through. Oh, like, think of all the amazing experiences that I've had in the last year with gay guys that I've met from the gay men's brotherhood, where I've had like, so many amazing zoom hangouts with guys and deep conversations. Like, you know, what reality do I do? I want to create for myself? And so I'm really getting good at identifying my filters and not putting things through old shit, you know?
[00:38:59] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, that's really good. You sparked something within me before I wrap up I want to. I want to. There's another challenge I had. Thank you for, like, revealing it to me through your share. My story now, it's not so much about the mean gays, because I think I kind of. I see that. That there's more there.
[00:39:15] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:39:15] Speaker A: But my story. And I'm like, oh, fuck the gays. Like, I have a story that we don't want each other to succeed, that we are not a true brotherhood in a lot of ways. We're very competitive. We want to tear each other down, and we do so with a smile on our face, which really annoys me. Really, really annoys me. And so that's my journey is like, we don't want each other to succeed. You know, we talked about the crabs in the bucket mentality. Like, we're all just trying to tear each other down. It's kind of relating to that. To that, a thing. But more so, like, with a community that we're trying to build, there's so much hate that comes our way. And I'm like, how could you possibly do this when, like, we're. All we're talking about is being authentic, being empowered, doing what you want to do. We're not trying to, like, get you to do things our way or sell you on one particular way. We're just saying we all want each other to feel more authentic, connected and empowered. And yet there's so much hate that comes from that.
[00:40:14] Speaker B: Yeah. Which is shame. And to people, to be honest, I have that same belief. And it was really exacerbated during us starting this community, because the first year was actually really, really hard. It was one of the hardest years for me because it was.
Yeah, it was just a lot of unconscious shame, toxic shame being hurled at us. Then it was like, who are you to, you know, try and lead us out of this muddle kind of. Right. And. And it's like, who are we? Not. Right. Like, we. We. Like, this is what we're. We're here to do. And so, yeah, I see that a lot, but I think that's a human thing. But it's exacerbated in our community because obviously, it's a microcosm, but. And our community tends to have more toxic sh. Shame. Right. So I'm a firm believer it comes from toxic shame. Right. It leads to cruelty towards self and cruelty towards others. And we're cruel towards others because we're cruel towards ourselves. Right. So it's like they. People don't want other people to succeed because they don't feel like they're worthy of succeeding or whatever it might be. So, yeah, that's a. That's a tough one. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:41:19] Speaker A: And all of this is. Is. Leads to disconnection, disconnection all around, disconnection across the board. Right. And so that. That is the problem, and that is the big pain point we see is this feeling of disconnection. So next episode, we're going to be talking a little bit more about some solutions, some ideas, some ways to connect in a way that's authentic. Before we jump onto the next episode, Matt, is there anything you want to add?
[00:41:43] Speaker B: I'll just say this. I'll say, you know, the. The. The biggest thing that causes disconnection is ego. Ego is the mechanism of separation. Right. And it's. It's adaptive until it becomes maladaptive. So it's adaptive in saying, I need to separate myself from. Have a sense of self over here. But when we create separation, we're also disconnecting from. From unity, from. From community, from these sorts of things. So I would say just getting good at really challenging our own egos, which is the stories. Ego is the stories that we tell and the filters that we create that we put reality through. That's ego. It tries to protect us from our pains. But as we start to get good at challenging our own ego and questioning it with curiosity, we start to see. Right. That there's a different way and that we can connect and we don't have to compete constantly. So I'm still working through this. It's my own journey, too.
By no means am I. Am I conscious beyond ego? I wish, but I'm still navigating this for myself. But I do have the ability to be able to recognize when my ego is activated and it's dividing me from people. And I try my best to enter into humility and take responsibility for some of my fears and insecurities and core wounds as opposed to projecting them on others. And I think that's the. That's what we're here to. To help people realize, too. So.
[00:43:04] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. I agree with you on that.
[00:43:07] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:43:08] Speaker A: All right, so for those of you who joined us for part one, thank you for coming along. We split this into two episodes because there's a lot here. So by all means, before. Before you jump into the next one, while you have to wait a week, if you're not already subscribed on Apple podcasts, but if you're not a subscriber, you have to wait a week to listen to this, listen to it again. And I. I highly encourage you to even, you know, people tell me that they, they have a notepad and I love that idea. I have podcasts where I bring out a notepad too and really think about some of those things that we talked about here before you listen to the next episode. There. There is a lot tangled up in this feeling of loneliness and disconnection, especially with the gay community. We talked about a lot of it here. You know, shame or wounding, trauma, attachment. There's a lot here. So we did split it up into two episodes on purpose.
And then once you're ready, then join us in the next episode where we will be talking more about some solutions.
[00:44:02] Speaker B: I want to say just before we wrap up is the loneliness episode. I don't know the title or the number of it, but loneliness and then making making Friends with Gay Men or something is an episode that we have. Those two would probably be good. If you're going to wait the week to listen to the next one, you can listen to those in the meantime.
[00:44:19] Speaker A: Yeah, I will definitely put them in the show notes on YouTube and also in the podcast. I'll just make a note to do that. Those are really good. I video. Cool. All right. As always, please give us a five star rating wherever you're listening to us and write some comments in our YouTube. Please subscribe if you're not already subscribed. Once you hit that little bell button on YouTube, you'll get notified as soon as the episode is released on Thursdays. And thank you so much to Matt for, as always, your wisdom and ability.
[00:44:47] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:44:48] Speaker A: And we'll see you guys in the next episode. Bye.
[00:44:52] Speaker B: Ciao.
