Addiction and Recovery Part 2

[00:00:02] Speaker A: All right, welcome back to the Gay Man Going Deeper podcast. If you have not watched part one of this series, this is a two part series. So part one is Addiction and Recovery part one. And this one is Addiction and Recovery part two. In the first episode we talked about addiction and in this episode we're talking about recovery. So pause this and go back and watch part one before continuing on this with this one because it will, everything will make sense. We're going to be building off the conversation that we had last week. So. All right, so. And in, in the last week's conversation, we basically talked about our own experience with addiction and how it's shown up in our own lives. We go into the juicy details of our own experience with addiction, both personally and professionally. And then we asked, we talked about how do we see addiction showing up in the gay community and came up with all the different ways that we're seeing it showing up in the community. And now we're going to talk about recovery and how we can move from addiction or compulsion into living a life of sobriety or living a life of, of, you know, using responsibly is what we're talking about. So the two questions we have for you guys today are what have you done to recover from your own addictive tendencies or, and, or compulsions? And what can you share with the audience about living sober or enjoying life's pleasures responsibly? So for this episode, let's start with Reno. What have you done to recover from your own addictive tendencies or compulsions? [00:01:34] Speaker B: Yeah, I was hoping you would. So I want to start, I want to start with something I observed recently. There's, there was someone who was sharing their journey with addiction and recovery on social media. And I had this curiosity because he really seemed to be struggling and the curiosity was around whether or not he had community supporting him on this journey because, and whether that's, you know, your typical AANA or, you know, like any Anonymous meetings, they have, they have Codependency Anonymous, they have Overeaters Anonymous, like, like there is literally a meeting for every addiction, which I think is fantastic. The, the Anonymous community, however, can be regarded and experienced as old school and religiously based. And that can be off putting for some people when they hear words like God or higher power, it's like a trigger or it's off putting to them. And so, you know, what I've observed is that even with me initially, it kind of had me contract at the idea of spending any amount of time in those spaces. I'm glad that I'm able to move past that now because, you know, I would say one of the most significant ways that I have been able to recover from, begin to recover from, continue to recover from addiction and be on the path of recovery and discovery has been as a result of community. It makes such a huge difference. My shame continues to heal in community. I begin to be free from my shame. I begin to be free from my trauma. I begin to be free from the ideas that I hold about how the world is and how people are. I experience unconditional community and unconditional welcoming and acceptance. And, you know, that has been remarkable. I'm part of a community called Recovery 2.0. And that community has been really, really amazing in. In this process. I arrived there originally for codependency. Actually, that was the first meeting I went to. And I stay for everything that it has to offer. And for all of these other addictions. I recognized, you know, I saw, okay, I don't have the relationship with food that I want to be having. And while I could look at it and go, oh, you know, it's harmless, what have you. I mean, years ago, in my, you know, probably from about age 18 or 19 into my, you know, into my. I would say, like mid, mid-20s, maybe even late 20s, I had struggled with bulimia. And I think I've shared this in previous episodes. And so, you know, I didn't have meetings for that, but at some point I just said, like, this does not work. I'm not going to keep doing this. I'm either going to buy the takeout, eat it, and then sit in the discomfort of having ate something that is clearly not good for my body or, you know, or I'm gonna stop. I'm gonna stop eating it. But throwing up is no longer an option. You know, like, this has gotta change. And so I worked on that piece myself. Alcohol, you know, my relationship around that, I think I shifted on my own in some ways, but then. But then came meetings because, you know, more recently showing up in those rooms and. And deciding that I was no longer going to drink alcohol, deciding that I had. I wanted to have a different relationship with food, deciding that I wanted to have a different relationship with technology, deciding that I want to. Wanted to have a different relationship with relationships, like, it was a game changer. But. But honesty, like real honesty with myself was. Was what. What sparked that journey. You know, there was a moment of reaching bottom, you know, in bottom, I think, as I see it, you know, because we can have high bottoms and we can have low bottoms. Right? A high bottom is like, oh, you know, I can go out and drink and, like, have a good time. And, yeah, I'm a bit hungover, but I still show up to work. I still pay my bills. I don't hit my partner, my children. You know, like, life looks good. I'm just doing what everybody else around me is doing. A low bottom is like, I have leveled my life. I've destroyed it. I am, you know, like, I'm. I'm gone. And so for me, like, with alcohol, the bottom was high. You know, like, when I looked around, I was like, oh, there are a lot of people who are worse off than I am. Like, I'm good. But it wasn't. But. But the. But the. The honesty part was the important piece. It was like, oh, some of these things that used to serve me, and they really did. They used to serve me. They don't anymore. And so it's time for me to get honest about that and look at how to replace them. You know, I still go out and dance, but I don't drink. If I don't think that I can be in an environment where alcohol is present, then I don't go. You know, I go to meetings every day on online in. You know, in recovery 2.0. I have a sponsor now, you know, and, like, in my mind, there was a story about that as well. Like, I don't need a sponsor. Like, I'm not that far gone. But I was like, you know what? I really want to dive in and invest myself in this process, and people who do that seem to have a sponsor. So let me try it. Well, wouldn't, you know, this guy is helping me with all sorts of other things. I mean, I'm working on my relationship to technology, even just noticing the ways in which, like, I. I sell myself short when it comes to showing up fully in my life and for myself and for what matters to me. So it's amazing when we start to. When we start to kind of remove some of these distractions and addictive behaviors and patterns from the equation. What comes up is, like, all the stuff that was behind it, you know? And so I was just. It was really surprising to start to see. It's like, oh, if I pull this little thread, all of a sudden, it all kind of unravels, and I'm like, wow, okay. Like, there's addiction. There's addiction in places I didn't even know it was present. There's distraction and compulsion, as you say, in places I didn't even Know, it was present, you know, so community, huge, you know, support huge. Honesty huge. And then also it's like there's the piece where you're on the path of, you know, like, abstinence from whatever your poison is, right? And you're actively engaged in recovery. And then this is really important because people think, well, if I don't have this, what do I have? It's like, there is life after addiction. There is life beyond abstinence, you know, and it's a life where, like, I go to yoga classes, I wake up early, I get to see the sunrise, you know, I don't feel like the next day. I'm not reactive. I'm responsive. I'm receptive to creativity, you know, as it comes through in ways that I wasn't available for previously because I was numbed out or tired or just not present unavailable. You know, I've seen my body's changed. I feel healthier, I feel more energized. I'm more consciously consumptive. I'm noticing, you know, some of the music I listen to isn't hitting as often as it used to. The television and entertainment I used to watch, I really loved watching, like, you know, housewives and stuff. And I still watch the housewives here and there. But honestly, I have this sensitivity to drama now and all of that stuff where I'm just like, my nervous system does not fuck with this anymore, you know, where it used to. Because that's like, that's what I grew up in. That's what I was used to. Now as I'm being reconditioned through recovery, I'm like, yeah, no, that, like, a lot of this stuff for me, for me, not for everyone, for me, is poison now, you know, and so it's fascinating. And the last thing I'll say is I used to, like, I used to. I used to get annoyed with people who would make comments about, like, what I ate or what I drank or what I listened to or what I was up to. And I still kind of do. I'm like, you know, miss me with that, please. But, but, but I get it. I get that they. I get that they saw something that I didn't and couldn't at the time, you know, and so, like, you have to be an asshole about it. But I understand where they were coming from. You know, they, they. They were the place that I wasn't yet. And now I can look and go, ah, yeah, like, for me, it's also poison now. You know, I'm where you are. I Get where you are coming from, you know. So anyway, that's my two cents. Yeah. [00:12:21] Speaker A: Lots of good things in your share. I'm so I just want to say I'm super happy for you that you're really diving deep into this. Like, I know for me, I've had lot long periods of sobriety in my life and then I integrated back, you know, certain things and again. But those periods of sobriety were huge expansions and level ups for me and especially spiritually. Like, my spiritual path really expanded when I, you know, for example, gave up alcohol. It was huge. So I'm just really looking forward to see what you keep discovering about yourself. [00:12:51] Speaker B: Yeah. Last thing, there's nothing quite like be like being here, like really fully, you know, sanely and soberly, if that's a word. Like being here. It's like incredibly challenging initially especially. [00:13:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:13:10] Speaker B: And then it becomes remarkably rewarding, you know. Oh my gosh. There's. Yeah, that's all I'll say. [00:13:17] Speaker A: Yeah, it's a good way to put it. [00:13:20] Speaker C: And I love that you're in it. You know, like you're coming at it like you're, you're literally in it for us. So you, you have a lot of really powerful and relevant experience to share, which is great. [00:13:30] Speaker A: Seriously. [00:13:30] Speaker C: Yeah. Okay. So yeah, if you didn't listen to the first one, you got to go back because none of what I say next is going to make sense to you. So the question is, how have you, what have you done to recover from your own addictive tendencies? And I'm going to take Matt's suggestion for this one and I'm going to respond with the word compulsive because that just feels more. Just feels better for me. So what I talked about last time in the last episode was that at the core, it was an emotional issue at its very core. So the first thing I did, and I took a little bit of time to think, well, this response, it might be a bit long, so just bear with me. But I promise you, take your time. Yeah, I really had to think about this. It was a great question, Matt. So the first thing is taking responsibility for that emotional response, Taking ownership for that emotional response. So instead of it being like trigger behavior, automatic, no space, it's realizing, okay, wait, I'm feeling lonely. So my thing was loneliness. I'm feeling lonely. Okay, I have a choice here. What am I going to do about it? And the quote that I love and I use it all the time to this very day is Viktor Frankl, I've said on this podcast before I'll say it again, because I love it. Between stimulus and response, there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. And in our response lies our freedom and our growth. [00:14:59] Speaker A: I love that. [00:15:00] Speaker C: Yeah. From the book. I forget the name of the book, but I have it. [00:15:04] Speaker B: Search for me. Yes. [00:15:06] Speaker C: Thank you, Reno man. Search for meaning. Fabulous. And this stays with me all the time. It's just one of those things that is, like, a cornerstone of my life. This quote. So this is what I had had used here. I had to disrupt the pattern, right? If I'm feeling lonely, I do not need to jump for Grindr. I do not need to, like, get into my calendar and go find a bar as quickly as possible to be with people. My thought was, oh, I'm lonely. Gotta go be with people. Lonely, be with people. So I made a conscious choice after a low low we talked about. Well, Irina talked about lows. A low low of mine was around Christmas. And in that new year, it really dawned on me that I had. I had a choice to make. I had to interrupt the pattern. So I made a conscious choice for the month of January. This is years ago. Not to have any hookups on Grindr. At the gym, at the bar, at the bathhouse, cruising, walking down the street. Nothing. Nothing for an entire month. I mean, like, let's see what happens if I just don't do this for a month. And what happened was I felt lovely. So there was that stimulus. And instead of automatically going into that response, the hook up, the app, whatever that was, I just stayed with it. I let myself feel lonely. And over time, I got to know this version of myself that I had been ignoring, resisting, avoiding, shaming, judging for so long. The lonely version of Michael. Me as a lonely gay man. I did not want to face this man for years, which is why I was doing this compulsive behavior. But in doing so. And yes, it hurt, I cried. It was very hard. I'm not saying at all this was easy. This is one of the hardest things I've ever had to do. But the answer for me to answer the question was I had to lean into the feeling instead of resist it or try to solve it. That's another thing I like to do, is I want to solve it right away. Okay, there's a problem. Let's solve it. But before you solve it, you got to feel it, right? So the result for me was I got to know myself on a much, much, much, much deeper level. We talked about the. We always use the Analogy of the onion. And I had peeled back a layer of this onion that. That revealed to me a very sad, lonely man. Lonely Michael. And it revealed that deeper layer to myself. But guess what? As I got to know that deeper layer of myself, the work was, I also got to listen to him, and I got to love him. And then down the road, I got to love myself at a much deeper level than I had loved myself before. But only because I opened the door to that layer. Right? So tangibly, what does this look like? I'm talking in, like, very abstract words here. So for me, my triggers were Friday nights. I remember this. So I. I had a date night with my ex. Friday night was our night. We broke out, blah, blah, blah, yada, yada. All my friends at that time also had partners. And on Friday nights, it was their date night, too, which was really annoying. So my Friday night would come along, and I'd be like, okay, let's go out. That's what I would do. No one's around. Let's go out. So Friday night rolls around. I'm like, okay, I'm not gonna do that. Instead, I'm just going to have to learn to be by myself if everyone else was busy. So I check in with my friends, my true friends. They're busy, of course. So then I was like, okay, well, what am I gonna do? And that's when I implemented Friday night date nights with myself. And I know, Matt, you do this too. [00:18:29] Speaker A: Yeah, what are the odds? That's so funny. [00:18:31] Speaker C: Yeah. And this was such a game changer for me because I'm like, okay, I need to make being alone fun in whatever way that looks like for myself. So I had to learn how to enjoy my alone time. And now, you guys know I love my alone time. It's so funny how different I am. Like, that. That version of me back then would never have wanted to spend a minute alone with himself. And this was the winter. It was January, right? So I cocooned. I was like, okay, I'm going to listen to my favorite music. I'm going to download some new songs. I'm going to watch a movie. I'm going to, you know, read. And this actually is when I got really into journaling and writing. That was just one of the ways that I wanted to connect with myself. And that's when I really started a deep journaling practice and deep writing practice, cooking new meals. And yes, it sucked. I'm not saying this all felt fun. I kept thinking like, oh, I wish somebody was here for this. Oh, I Wish I could share this with somebody. Oh, I wish I could cuddle on the couch with somebody. Oh, I wish. Oh, I wish I could just go on Grindr and like, oh, I know. Like, my neighbor's home. I can see his light on. I could just go to his place. But I didn't. I let myself just be in the space of loneliness and let whatever feelings come up. Because here's the thing. Because I wasn't numbing anymore distracting, I was able to face a lot of really, really powerful thoughts and feelings that I needed to face that I wouldn't have faced otherwise. That's when it surfaced. It surfaced when I took away all of my distractions and all my bears, and I'm left with, oh, these are some really nasty thoughts. When I was journaling, these are some really nasty thoughts I have in my head. I didn't know they were there until then. I'm gonna add one caveat before I wrap up is. Is don't do what I did and then get so good at this that then you use it as a reason to not engage with people at all. Okay. I did that. I did that myself. I went so far the other way that I became hyper independent. [00:20:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:20:15] Speaker C: Wolf thing. And I was like, I don't need anybody. I'm great on my own, blah, blah, blah. And again, guess what? Still lonely. Because I went so far the other way. [00:20:22] Speaker A: Right. [00:20:22] Speaker C: So that's my one caveat. And I think working with somebody can help you make sure that. That like working with a coach or counselor or therapist will make sure that that doesn't happen. Because ultimately, if you do want the connection, you do need to still expose yourself and be vulnerable, which we've talked about before. So that's me. [00:20:39] Speaker A: Yeah, you're. I felt from that your share the same thing I felt from Reno's share. I just felt emotional hearing you and just lonely, Michael. And I just, you know, I want to give him a big hug and. And just applaud the courage that it takes. Because I. I'm a deep diver as well. I'm an inward traveler. I know how hard it is to sit with the sorrow and the loneliness and the depression and all those things and not numb out from it. [00:21:04] Speaker C: It's. [00:21:04] Speaker A: But I think that's when life begins. You know what I mean? [00:21:07] Speaker C: So. And that's the self love piece. Right. Like, we talk about self love. Like, it's easy to self love yourself when life is good, but the real work about self compassion and self love is like, when is rough when you want to learn to have your own back, you got to be like on the floor, cover dust and dirt, crying. Like, that's when you're really going to practice self love and self compassion. [00:21:29] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And if you ain't feeling it, you ain't healing it. So unfortunately we gotta, we gotta go through that, that murky swamp to get to the other side. So. Yeah, man, you guys are bringing me down memory lane. This is crazy. Just reflecting on all this, I just want to say that it feels like a lifetime ago. Like really, it doesn't feel like this lifetime that I was addicted to crack. And like, I think I. What I'm. What is it now? 38, 25, 26. Like, so I just celebrated 12 years. I think April 6th, I just stopped counting. I just don't even care anymore. I'm like, this is a new life and new me. But I'm pretty sure it was 12 years on April 6 from using like hard drugs basically, and pot and alcohol, really the only things. And then plant medicines, which are medicines to me, they're not drugs. But so, yeah, for me it was rehab. So I went to rehab, like I said, when I was, I think 18 or 19, spent a month in rehab. And then it was interesting because I actually look at. And I'm. I. The way I look at it now is my addiction was. There was a big silver lining. And for me it was, it was a big step in aligning me to my purpose. So in rehab I connected with the. With, well, journaling, with watching the counselors in action, you know, watching them do group work. And then I was able to watch other people share and get emotional. And I was like, oh my God, I was so lit up. And I'm like, I want to do this. And then I was like, got out of rehab and, you know, started doing research on different things. And that's when I found the addiction counseling program at the University of Lethbridge. And so I got into that. And so for me, it was like, it set me off on my, on my journey of life. Like, I wouldn't be sitting here today if it wasn't for my addiction and my recovery. So that's a really big part of it. And then, you know, counseling again, going into, into therapy and working with a counselor for, geez, like, years. I saw him for probably two years. And then, you know, so I started seeing Rita, who was my psychologist for when I was 25. And you know, so just that for me was a huge thing because like I said, I wasn't a Fan of the Anonymous meetings. They. They didn't meet my needs and so I decided to go a different route. And the counseling for me was huge. And then again it was like, you know, a lot of. And why I think I'm such a great practitioner is because I've been through this. I've been through rehab, I've been through, you know, years, well, decades really of therapy and these sorts of things. So I know what. What has worked for me and I tend to teach from my own anecdotes. Right. And then this other category started to arrive. So I started. I studied shamanism when. And did the cosm. Cosmologies, the four cosmologies in. In that. That was a two year kind of program I guess. And within that modality I started learning about plant medicines and ayahuasca mainly and then psilocybin. And those were really big for me in the sense of giving me another vehicle to access my trauma and how it was stored in my body. I'm a firm believer that the plant medicine technology works really, really well at helping remove the. The ego so you can conn aspects of yourself. So it's almost like for that time while you're under the influence of the medicine, it allows you to access perhaps your shadows, your psyche, your subconscious and unconscious where as we don't have access to those, direct access to those. When the ego is our. Is our negotiator between these two realities. And so that for me was big. It was, it was. It got me to a place of being able to. To do some healing that perhaps I wasn't able to access in. In traditional like say psychotherapy or whatever it be. But for me it was in conjunction. So I'm not suggesting people just go and do plant medicine and whatever like you know, and not do other modalities. I think it's all works together. It's a system. So that's important. And then one of the big things for me actually is I remember that I had to stop drinking alcohol because I was every. Well and it's still to this day if I drink alcohol, I want cigarettes. And I remember Michael when you and. And Callan, I came up and I was like, I had a cigarette and you guys are like what are you doing? Oh my God, like you smoke. It was crazy because as soon as I have a drink of alcohol, like my brain chemistry is just like give me nicotine. So I quit smoking cigarettes after eight attempts because I quit smoking alcohol or quit drinking alcohol and alcohol would always bring me to cocaine too. So I'd get piss drunk. All my friends would go home, and then I would call up dealers, and I'd be like, Kate. And then I'd go and I'd be up for two days doing coke or crack or whatever. So alcohol was a gateway for me into all these other things. So alcohol was something that I had to end. Promiscuous sex. I was super promiscuous when I would drink. So again, that was something. So alcohol for me was actually quite a dangerous thing, and I had to learn how to say no to that. It helped me move towards recovery from other. Other things. Yeah. And then I think I. I told the story in the other episode around my blushing and having to go to rehab because I was blushing. And. And it was about a fear of vulnerability and fear of being seen. Okay. But in being seen is authentic connection. So I had to learn to tolerate being seen so then I could move towards authentic connection where people could truly see me and I could feel connected to them. And this is why I'm a firm believer that the anecdote or the cure to addiction is actually connection, not sobriety, not abstinence. You know, that's important part of it. Don't get me wrong. But if you're just abstaining from, let's say, alcohol, you become a dry drunk, right? And you still got all the. That you're dealing with. What people are yearning for is connection, love, to open their heart and feel loved, to feel like they can give and receive love. These sorts of things are so important. And. And so for me, learning this process and learning how to, you know, show up, be seen, be visible, share my messiness and my brilliance, that is when my addiction started to heal, is because that's what I was deeply yearning for. And I think as. As gay men, that this is a major injury for a lot of us is we hide behind masks. We hide our sexuality, which therefore then leads to hiding all other aspects of ourselves. Because our sexuality is t so many other areas of our lives, then we struggle with learning, with. With, you know, moving towards authentic connection. And that's the thing, right? So for people that are listening right now and they're. You're struggling with addiction. You know, it's probably. There's aspects, like I said in the last episode, of intimacy avoidance or avoidance of vulnerability that is likely a strong route into the addictive behavior, right? Because that's what's impairing our ability to move towards connection, which is what most of us are yearning for. So that was a big learning and in, in the, you know, being a practitioner and doing work in addiction. When I had that realization, it was so profound for me. And I think, you know, Brene Brown does some really good work in this area, but I think it was Gabor Mate. He's one of my, my, my idols. He's amazing. And he has a book called in the Realm of Hungry Ghosts, I think it's called. And he talks about holistic treatment to addiction and he's very, very trauma trained and I love his work. So that would be maybe a book for people that are. Whether you're a practitioner or you're wanting to heal your own addiction, that book would be definitely a suggestion of mine. Yeah. All right, Reno, what can you share with the audience about living sober or enjoying life's pleasures responsibly? [00:29:25] Speaker B: My goodness, what can they share? As Michael said. Right. I'm going through it right, right now, and I wanna, I wanna look at the question one more time. You know, it probably gets harder before it gets easier. That's what I would say. Like, it's not, it's not for the faint of heart. You know, kids do try this at home, but. But yeah, it's like, it isn't for the faint of heart. And you know, my sense is that if you're lucky, you don't have to be brought to your knees and have your life completely leveled to decide that there's a different way of living. But also, sometimes I envy the people who did arrive at that point because it's just very clear that there's nowhere to go but up. Right. Like, like for me, again, with this high bottom, low bottom thing, like, there are many moments where I go, you know, it really wasn't that bad. I could, I could just keep drinking, you know, but for someone who, whose life was, you know, completely obliterated by alcoholism, it's a no brainer. It's like when I drink, like, it's over, you know, so, so, like, that's been tricky, and I think it's a path and a journey that I highly recommend everyone. At least try, you know, at least try. Give it a go. See what, see what sobriety from your poison of choice feels like for a period of time. Try it for two weeks, try for 21 days, try it for a month, try it for a week, you know, if all of that is too much for you and just see what arises. But yeah, it was, it was challenging at first and there are still moments where it's really challenging. And I think, okay, like, what have I signed up for here. And I think one of the hardest things was the fear that my life would not be as fun and I would not be as fun without my substance of choice, without my distraction or addiction or compulsion of choice. And it's interesting, too, because, Matt, you were sharing before, like, how you used to go out and drink and then, you know, after you do your thing, like, that version of you would have been really attractive to me at some point. Like, I would have been like. Because I either would have wanted to, like, save you and heal you, or I would have wanted a party with you, or both, you know? And so that's also really interesting to observe how, like, that tendency has shifted in my world as well. And I think I lost my train of thought. What was I. Oh, what. What was I saying before I said. [00:33:05] Speaker A: That about party boy you would have been attracted to. Yeah. [00:33:09] Speaker C: Okay. [00:33:09] Speaker B: Thank you. Now I remember. So there was a fear, like, I won't be fun and life won't be fun anymore, you know, and. And I won't be okay. And what I have seen is that for a moment, for a period, that does kind of start to feel like it's the case. [00:33:31] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:33:32] Speaker B: Because there's this gap, right. It's like, okay, well, the thing is gone, but nothing has replaced it. And so is this just going to be life, like this void, you know, where I. You know, that's gone, but there's nothing else? No, actually, it doesn't need to be. [00:33:52] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:33:53] Speaker B: Cue community. Q. New relationships, healthy life giving, fulfilling, enriching relationship activities. You know, I still go out dancing. In fact, I still dance on tables and in booths and hang from rafters, and I'm on stage in the booty box, and sometimes the crowds are, like, around me while I'm dancing and they're, like, cheering me. Like I'm partying harder than some of the people in the club are. But I'm not drinking and I'm not on drugs. I'm high on my own supply, you know, like, just the music and the moment and the energy, like, that's possible, you know, when I. When I have sex, right? Like, you know, I'm sober and I'm there for the experience and the pleasure is so deep and beautiful and, like, lasting, too. It doesn't just fade when I'm done. It's like I'm connected to my breath and I'm connected to my body and I'm connected to the person I'm engaging with. So it's almost like I'm drunk on the experience or High on the experience. And it continues in like a balanced way beyond the act itself. It's remarkable. What else? Like, you know, I'm finding food becomes medicine, not poison, right? So now the foods I eat, like, I select them for how they will contribute to my well being, my presence, my connectedness, my energy, my libido, my, you know, my life force. And, and so now food for me is medicine. Entertainment for me is medicine. Music for me is medicine. Clothing for me is medicine. The way I endure, adore, adorn myself and my life to like, enhance it, you know, not as a mask, not as a distraction, you know, and then technology, like the relationship I'm, I'm, I'm cultivating with technology now is consume or, sorry, create more than I consume. You know, generally speaking, I would go to this thing as a means of a distraction, right? So now, now when I go to that, I go there for connection. So I've got meditative apps, I have duolingo on it as well, you know, where I go to post things that are enriching to the, you know, to the larger world and population. And then I try to just put it away. You know, I have a rule now too, that I'm still working on. I don't get it right every night, but it's like this thing goes into sleep mode at, you know, nine or ten, ten at the latest. At the latest. And it's not the first thing I'm doing when I wake up, you know, other than for Insight Timer, my meditation app. I sit up, I meditate, I do my morning sadna practice. You know, I go for a walk, I speak into my voice recorder, all of that stuff before I even mess with this thing here, you know, so it just, it does get better. And then, and then what ends up happening as well is there's like, you start to discover this new version of yourself. You know, it's like I thought I knew who I was. I'm just warming up. Like, I am just warming up. Life is just getting really good and I'm discovering new things about myself and what I actually like and what I actually value and what I'm actually capable of. And also I'm becoming this even more clear vessel and channel for creativity, for spirit, for inspiration and expression. Like, it's just, there's so much, you know, there's so much and, and like, for service to the way I show up, for the people around me, for my clients, for my work. Like, it's just different now, you know, and people see it and then also you, like, look sexy too. You know, it's like, I thought I was sexy, sexy, you know, when I was, like, doing this and that. But, like, I actually. You look sexy and you feel sexy. It's diff. And it's a different kind, you know? So, yeah, so much. I could go on and on and on. [00:38:17] Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. [00:38:20] Speaker B: Thank you. [00:38:21] Speaker C: There's so much I want to say now. Yeah. But, yeah, underline, underline and highlight. All that. That was really good, Reno. Like, I couldn't agree with you more. Okay, I'm gonna. I'm gonna try to answer the question. What I love about this is the way that it's worded. Enjoying life's pleasures responsibly, that's so good for me. Anyone who listens to this podcast regularly knows that I love myself some pleasure, and I'm not ashamed about it, and I will never apologize for it. So that's why I really enjoy this. And I'm not saying that you have to be like me, as always, just. This is just who I am. I am not one who will give up pleasure easily. And I. I take a lot of joy from the pleasures of life. I'll eat the entire pizza if I want to eat it. I'll sleep in all day if I want to sleep in all day. And I'll go out to the club if I want to go out to the club. And that's just. That's the way it's going to be. And you can love it or you can hate it, it doesn't matter to me. But what I have learned through this journey of myself, loving pleasure is I know what it is. I know the role it plays in my life, and I know it's not the same as happiness, true happiness. And there is a big difference because for a long time, like. Like my example with sex and connection, I was mistaking pleasure with happiness. I was seeking something, but I wanted something, but seeking it in ways that was not going to give it to me. So it's very much the same way. Pleasure is not happiness. And so you have to know what's motivating you. And having that sense of self awareness is really, really important. And then understanding your patterns around it, right? A question I love to ask myself if. If I want to check in and I'm like, oh, am I. Am I going into, like, you know, compulsive behavior here is if I wanted to stop doing this, can I stop doing this? If I'm at a bar with all my friends and they're like, and I'm thinking, okay, I'm. I'm drinking, but I'm at that nice level. I'm having a good time. I'll. They say, okay, we're gonna go to the bar. You want a drink? Instead of just. Yep. Which would have been my answer. Like, no question. Now I'm like, michael, do you need a drink right now? Well, no, I really don't need a drink. I'm fine. So say, no, thanks. Go for it. Have a good time. And that's kind of like how I do it. It's very. Like I said, between stimulus and response, there's a space. Having that question to myself and being honest with myself, obviously. Like, do I really need a drink? No, I don't. I'm actually good. I'm fine. That's one question. And the next question would be, am I escaping my life? Am I doing this to escape something? Am I doing this to, like, run away from a feeling? Am I doing this to run away? Now, I understand that we are all escapists to some degree, and escapism can be a good thing. It can be a nice way to cope. Like, you've had a long day, and you want to just put on a movie or read a book or, you know, whatever, just kind of escape the world for a little bit, that's fine. But there's a difference between escapism once in a while and then, like, as a lifestyle. And I think that when you do it as a lifestyle, that's where it becomes a problem, because the more you escape your life, the less power you have to change it. You can't make changes when you're over here not, you know, avoiding it. So those are some of the questions that I do to check in with myself when I am in my pleasure and I am having the fun. And everything that Reno said really resonated with me. I still do that. Of course. I talked a lot about sex in these last two episodes. I still enjoy my casual sex, my hookups and all that stuff. I have a great time with it, but I'm not. I know why I'm doing it. I know what it's doing for me, and I. There's no. There's no shady qualms about what's going on here. It's two adults. We know what we want to do. Let's get it done. Have a nice day. That's it. And it serves me to some degree, but I know that I'm not going to get my happiness from that. It's just. It's. It is what it is. It's. It's a pleasure that I want to partake in and that's that. So that's how I do it. It's really about self awareness, knowing your patterns and motivations. And those two questions are really important. Can I stop this if I wanted to? And am I doing this because I'm trying to escape something? Those are the two questions I'll leave the audience with. [00:42:21] Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. And your intention behind why you move towards casual sex is different now. Your intention was to mitigate, you know, loneliness and shame, and now it's to move towards pleasure and enjoy and celebrate love or whatever. You're right. So there's. Yeah, that's huge. Yeah, yeah. Okay, I've got. Again, there's so much stuff that comes up. I wrote some things down, but. Okay, so what can I share with the audience about living sober or enjoying life's pleasure? So again, we're talking kind of, kind of a little bit about a bit of a polarity here. Because sometimes sobriety can be about like minimizing or limiting our access to pleasures, at least at first, until we like re negotiate our baseline of what pleasure is. Because when we're in active addiction, our tolerance is extremely high for pleasure. Right. We're always saturating our brain with pleasure. And then when we go into a period of recovery, we can. Our brain can feel depleted and we're. We could be pleasure seeking and these sorts of things. So I have a few things here for people on the. The side where you're living sober. Okay, I'll speak to that. First. I know for me, when I went through this, this period of sobriety, I. Because I am very black and white in certain aspects, and it was like all or nothing. So I went into over restriction on everything. And I was super rigid with my eating, with my working out with all these things. And what I realized is I just took the shame I was experiencing and instead of numbing it out with drugs and alcohol, I started to use shame as the motivator for my life. So it was like, if I don't go to the gym, shame on you. Shame on your body. You're disgusting. Get to the gym. So shame became this thing that I used to motivate all of my behaviors. And it became very, very toxic. It led to the next stage of my journey. So it was addiction. And then after that, it became like this real compulsion and obsession around fitness, my body and all that. And I've shared that in many different episodes prior. And that became its own addiction. So it's almost like I replaced one thing with another with the fuel beneath it being shame, right? And then to these same people, I want to say there is this energy of when we are, you know, at the club. This is your, your share made me think about this. You know, the guys come up and be like, hey, do you want a drink? We're all going for a drink. And you know, the automatic person inside me, the people pleaser, would be, yeah, I want a drink because I want connection. I want to be with the guys when they're all getting a drink. So I would get a drink too. So can we tolerate that feeling of maybe feeling left out or disconnected in that, in that thing, right? And again, when I come, when I, when I come full circle and I think about coming to Toronto to visit you, Michael. I drank because I wanted to, to be with you guys and I wanted to experience that because I know it's a part of your life, it's a part of Callan's life, and I wanted to, I wanted to be there, but I, I knew I would not want to be there sober because for me, it would have been overstimulating for my nervous system. So I used alcohol as a way to regulate my nervous system from some of the sensory sensitivity stuff that I have. And then I drank. But then the day after, I totally regretted it. I was like, oh, why did I do this? Right? So again, that's a perfect example of how I show up sometimes in ways that I don't or I do things because I want to fit in. I want that sense of connection and community. So, yeah, that was one thing that came up. And then to the same people that are living sober, I want to really. We can't have an episode on recovery without talking about relapses and slips because this is a part of the process of, of healing from addiction. Like, the statistics are extremely high. I don't have the numbers, but it's like, you know, people that on the, the journey from addiction to recovery, relapse and slips are very, very, very common. And a relapse is like full, full bore. I'm back in the cycle of my addiction and I'm, I'm relapsing. And a slip is like a one time thing. You clean it up quick and you move on. So, and, and I want to just really normalize this because for me, when I was, you know, moving through my addiction to crack, it was endless relapses, you know, and it was. I would go two months At a time I'd be so proud of myself, and then I would, you know, drink alcohol and I'd be, boom, I'd be back into. And for most of mine, they were slips. That would be a weekend where I would just go hard and then I'd be back on, on the sober train again. But it's just really, really normal. And then the other thing that I have here is, you know, your friends might change. This was a big part of, of, you know, when I was going through my healing, I had a really solid group of guys that I was hanging out with, with, that were also into crack. And we had a really solid brotherhood. And we would get high together. And when we were high, we would talk about deep things and we would practice vulnerability because we'd be disinhibited, these sorts of things. And when I had to sober up, I had to let go of these friendships. So there was a grieving that I had to go through around these relationships that I had. And I lost the very thing that I was desperately seeking, which was fueling my addiction, which was connection. I lost that. But then when I lost that, I found. I found new connection, right? And then the last thing that I have here is for people, because not everybody. So for example, myself, I didn't do the AA model. The AA model tends to be more disease model, which is like, it's addiction's irreversible, you can't cure it, it'll never be gone, you always will have it. I don't prescribe to that mentality because I'm not biologically predisposed to addiction. So I was able to heal my addiction and I was able to move to back towards substances and use them responsibly. And I can now, like I said, like, I can drink, can have the odd cigarette, and it doesn't relapse me back into, into this. Not everybody's going to be like this. But I want to speak to those people that don't have predisposition. And the only way to know is trial and error, right? Because. And I don't. I'm not recommending playing with fire here. That's not what I'm saying. But to some people that living sober is one lifestyle. And then to certain people, they can enjoy life's pleasures responsibly. So you gotta. You kind of have to really navigate. Because for me, it was disconnection, it was shame, it was trauma. And as I've healed those things over the course of my life, I'm able to move towards things And. And enjoy some of life. Life's pleasures responsibly. And for people that are struggling with process addictions, all human beings. Well, I shouldn't say that most human beings have sex. All human beings need food. Right. So you have to be able to enjoy these. These things responsibly when you are healing from a process addiction. So that is, I think, really important to note here. So. Yeah, that's my share. [00:49:35] Speaker C: Great stuff, guys. [00:49:36] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:49:37] Speaker B: Yeah. Wow. [00:49:39] Speaker A: Yeah. Lots of. Lots to unpack here. Like, I almost feel like we could do another episode. Like, you know, it's like, it's. There's a lot of stuff here. So. [00:49:46] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:49:47] Speaker A: Any closing comments from either of you two before we wrap up? [00:49:55] Speaker B: Community. Again, I. I can't emphasize that enough. Community, compassion for yourself as you're navigating this. This journey, because it is. It is a challenging one, but as I mentioned earlier, it's a rewarding one. And then I guess the last thing I would say is it was prompted by something I. [00:50:23] Speaker A: You. [00:50:23] Speaker B: You had shared, I think, Matt. But I see now that there was a lot that I was tolerating and enduring. Like, at one point, it served me. At another point, it's almost as if I had adopted a sort of a tolerance or an endurance for, like, these things that weren't serving me anymore. And what I noticed is that as the shift has happened, like, and. And sometimes there's even a little bit of a judgment around it. Like, I feel way more vocal and way more, like, decisive and discerning about. About, you know, things that I used to tolerate and endure. I just don't now, you know, And. And so it's interesting. I'm really waking up to the. The many ways in which, like, yeah, there was a high tolerance for discomfort, sickness, poison, whatever you want to call it, and it's just not there anymore, you know, and that's challenging initially because it's like you're waking up and it's like, whoa, this is a lot, you know? But eventually, I think things start to shift and your life starts to reflect who you're becoming. [00:51:40] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:51:41] Speaker B: So be patient with yourself. Be compassionate with yourself. Be kind to yourself, you know? Yeah. [00:51:49] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. [00:51:51] Speaker C: I have two things I want to add, actually. One, we talked about community. So guys who are listening, we have a community. So if this is something you're like, oh, yeah, maybe I do need to connect with some people who are out of my usual circles or maybe who have been through this before. We have an entire community of guys, and we'll be Hosting the hangout. The Zoom hangout on the Thursday of the month. So please come to that. There's. There's Matt and I will be there and maybe Rito as well, hopefully. Yeah. Um, so that's one option. I just want to give you guys options that there are communities out there. Ours is just one of them. There are many other ones. Reno named a bunch. So the other thing is, if you are struggling or know someone who is, you can reach out to any of us. Infoabensbrotherhood.com is our email address. Or you can reach out to us on Instagram or Facebook, and we can point you in the right direction. And the last thing I'll say. And I already forgot what it was. Oh, yes. You know what this episode reminds me of? And actually, funny enough, this was our first episode of 2023, I believe, was Reinvention. [00:52:53] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:52:54] Speaker C: And I feel like what you guys have just shared and listening to, you guys, we're kind of talking about a reinvention here of sorts. Yeah. It's just one flavor of reinvention. So I think what we might do is put that Reinvention episode in the show notes, because I think that could help people kind of process what that looks like. [00:53:11] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that we talked about stages of change and different things in that episode. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah, I like that. I like that. This will be like a little trio bundle. [00:53:22] Speaker C: That's right. [00:53:22] Speaker A: Yeah. All right. Well, I just want to thank you guys for your vulnerability and sharing and. Yeah, again, as always, it's just so beautiful how to watch this little triangle work. Like, it's like you share, and then you share, and then it stimulates me, and then we're just. You know, we're kind of just stimulating a lot of beautiful. It's. It's a testament to group work. Right. And connection. It's like we're kind of really, really emulating that. So thank you. [00:53:46] Speaker B: Maybe we need to have a little weekend together at some point in the new year. [00:53:49] Speaker A: Oh, we will. [00:53:49] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:53:52] Speaker A: That'd be really fun. [00:53:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:53:53] Speaker A: Be really fun. Yeah. And come and join us in the. In the Facebook group. And like Michael said, we host the Zoom Hangouts of the last Thursday of every month. So come and join us. Michael's is in the morning in the eastern western side of the world, and mine is in the evening. So come and join us. Just go to gay men's brotherhood.com and go to Community, and then you'll see those two events, and you can. You can get the links emailed to you in via email by signing up to our email list because they're also in the Facebook group. But if you don't have Facebook, you can always come to our website and please leave comments. We love your comments on. On YouTube and we love your star ratings, five stars, preferably on your favorite podcast platform, because it gets this episode into the hands of the people that need it. That's the. That's why we want that. Right? It's not about fame or anything for us. We just want these. These episodes to get into the. The hands and the eyes and the ears of the people that need them. Because we get a lot of messages weekly, really, from people saying, you know, these episodes are really helping me, and they're helping me heal, and I'm now in therapy and these sorts of things. So, yeah, that's what we want. We. We know our community needs healing, and we're here to be and to do our small part in that. So, yeah, please share these episodes. It helps. All right, much love, everybody. Take care.