Addiction and Recovery Part 1

[00:00:01] Speaker A: Welcome to Gaming Going Deeper, a podcast series by the Gay Men's Brotherhood where we talk about personal development, mental health and sexuality. We are your hosts. Michael Diorio is a life and wellness coach specializing in sexuality, relationships and self confidence. Reno Johnson is a spiritual life, love and business coach. And I'm Matt Lancetal, a counselor and facilitator specializing in healing and empowerment. So we each have our own private practice and in this podcast we're sharing all of our best stuff. Today we're talking about addiction and recovery. This is a two part series, so this week we're going to be talking about addiction and next week we're going to be talking about recovery. So come and join us for for that one next week and we're going to be exploring questions like how has addiction shown up in your life? How do you see addiction showing up in the gay community? And then next week we're going to be exploring what have you done to recover from your own addiction or addictive tendencies? And how or what can you share with the audience about living sober and enjoying life's pleasures responsibly? So the three of us have a lot of wisdom to share in this area and it's going to be good. So. And for those of you that want to join us and continue the discussion the last Thursday of every month in the Gams Brotherhood, we have our Zoom hangouts where you'll have a chance to share your own experiences. So come and join us. And this podcast and YouTube channel are listener and viewer supported. So if you enjoy what you're, what we're creating, what you're hearing, you can support us by making a donation to the show by using the link in the show notes. You can also subscribe to early access on Apple Podcast and listen ad free and gain early access to episodes. All of your support helps us continuing making content for you and supporting our community. And we do thank you in advance. If you're looking to accelerate your personal development journey, check out our coaching collection to learn how to heal and empower yourself at your own pace by getting Instant access to 45/ premiums personal development coaching videos created by us, as well as our healing your shame and building better relationships courses. So you can head over to gay Men going deeper for more info on that. All right, well, happy New year. It is 2024 and it's a fresh start. So we are talking about making change. Obviously when we're talking about addiction and recovery, we're talking about how we're, how we're showing up in the world. You know, are we showing up in our, in our fullest or are we numbing out our experience to get through and, and the changes that we want to make if we want to start living more fully and not being in these more numbed out or escapist states. So the theme of the month is addiction and recovery. So we're going to be. We have two episodes coming out on this topic and then a few other really great episodes are going to be coming out. Michael and I are, will have our, our solo episodes coming out. So I wanted to say off the top, just my experience in this area. So talking about addiction and recovery. So this was actually what I studied for my undergrad. I studied addiction counseling in university for four years. I have a lot of wisdom in this space. I worked in the field for 10 years doing mental health and addiction counseling. I haven't worked in this space for probably, well, almost 10 years now. Actually. I took a hiatus from that and then I got back into counseling and coaching and doing a lot of work with shame and trauma. But really when you're working with addiction, you're working with the roots of the addiction, which is shame and trauma and grief and these sorts of things. So it is very similar. But there's some really fine nuances that I wanted to share with you guys today around addiction and what, what addiction is. So I grabbed just like a bas, you know, definition off of Wikipedia just to kind of start off. So addiction is a neuropsychological disorder. And I would even say neuropsychological sl. Spiritual disorder. And I'll share a bit more about that later. Characterized by a persistent and intense urge to use a drug or engage in a behavior that produces natural reward despite substantial harm and other negative consequences. Okay, so every addiction is going to have two things that are going to be present in it. So obsession and compulsion. So obsession is the cravings. It's the thoughts about using or engaging in the behavior, like using the substance or engaging in the behavior. Compulsion is the actual act on the craving. So it's the behavior. So you have to have these two things present in order for the addiction to be present. When it comes to understanding or treating addiction, I look at it through the lens of what they call the biopsychosocial spiritual model. Okay, so it's more of like the holistic, more up to date model when it comes to understanding and treating addiction. So the biological is that people can have a biological predisposition to addiction. So if, when you were in vitro, if your, your mother was using Substances that can biologically predispose you. Your brain chemistry to becoming addicted to substances if you use them. Okay, so there's a very much a. You know, you look at nature versus nurture. This is very much the nature side of things. Like, it. It's. It's tied. Be tied into the genetics of. Of us when it comes to that. And then the psycho. The psychology of it is that we can experience things in our lives that. That, you know, create suffering and pain in our. In our psychology and. And our relationship to ourself that can lead us to want to escape and. And use drugs and alcohol. For that reason. This, the social is more the environment. So how our environment plays a role in using. So this could be, again, it could be seeing drugs and alcohol and behaviors being used in our household growing up can be our peers encouraging us to use peer pressure, these sorts of things. And then the spiritual, from my perspective, is it's very much about disconnection. When we're disconnected from ourselves, our connection to spirit from other people. I think this is a really big thing. So if we lack meaning and purpose in our lives and we lack a spiritual connection, it's a. I think it's a big precursor to people developing addiction. So this is both understanding and treating addiction. When you're looking at somebody who has an addiction, you want to look at all of those areas and see which ones are the most prevalent for that person. And then some of the most. The more outdated models, in my opinion, are like the moral and disease model. I don't support these. I think they're extremely ineffective, and they're shaming to a certain degree, and they're very limiting. So the moral model is more that, you know, looking at it like this person should have the willpower to get out of their addiction. Like, why are people doing this? You know what I mean? It's. It's often that apathetic point of view that you see when, you know, people taking. When they see people on the street that are using, it's like, why don't they just go get a job and, you know, get up off their ass? And it's really, really taking out the mental health aspect of addiction, and it's just erasing that. So don't support that. That side of things. It's a very shaming model. And then the disease model, it's quite controversial in the sense that it looks at it like it's irreversible and there is no cure to addiction. So again, if we're talking within the biological perspective, and somebody's biologically predisposed to addiction. Sure, there could be a disease model applied to that, but in a lot of other cases I don't support that because it's saying once you have an addiction, you are always a slave to that addiction. Which is one of the reasons why I'm not a huge supporter of certain aspects of AA model because it's, you're, you know, you're getting up in front of people 30 years after you're stopped using and saying, I, you know, I'm Matt, I'm an addict. You know, I'm a firm believer that you can liberate yourself from addiction. You don't have to be constantly identifying with that label. But I will say that I do support AA and these models because they provide a sense of belonging, community, like mindedness. There's a lot of beautiful things about the, about these models as well. So I just want to highlight that I'm not, I'm not on the mod model. I'm, I'm just saying it's, you know, there's certain aspects that are pros and certain aspects that are cons, according to me. Okay. And then looking at how to assess addiction, I think this is important because, you know, if you're listening, it's important to be able to look at like yourself honestly, right? Because we can, you know, yes, we can go and get a clinical diagnosis for having an addiction, but we can also look at these criteria that I'm going to give you and you can say like, is this showing up in my life? Or you know, do I have some of these characteristics that are going to entail whether or not I have an addiction? Addiction. So the first thing I want to say is that, you know, there's a continuum of use, they call it, which is, you know, the start out would be no use, right? So somebody who's not engaging in any sort of addictive behavior or substances, then it moves into use. So probably people who are more responsible social users. And then misuse can develop, which is like, you start to see impacts in your major life areas like, you know, maybe you're missing work or you're having hangovers or whatever that might be, being promiscuous while you're using. And then you start to get into abuse, which is going to be escalating in the consequences that you're seeing within your life. And then addiction, which is full blown. So you're going to see a huge impact on your major life areas. So work, finances, your psychology, your mental health, your physical health, These things really start to deteriorate when you move along this continuum. Okay. And then throughout the course of my career, I kind of developed like a little bit of like my own personal model that I use to help myself understand without having to use some sort of like prescriptive, like testing for people. And it's duration, intensity, frequency and intention. Those are like kind of the categories that I use to define it. And in order to say that somebody has an addiction or a significant compulsion, you'd be looking at having like a lot of these, like pretty much all four of them. Okay, so the duration is how long. You look at how long has somebody been using over the course of time, right? That's one of the things. So that in isolation could not, would not define an addiction because somebody could be using once a week for 10 years and the, and the, the intensity is low. They're not using a lot, right? So maybe they have a couple alcoholic drinks and they've been doing that for 10 years. That's not an addiction. Okay, but then you add in intensity and this is how much, okay, so how much have they been using for how long have they been using that amount? Right, and that's kind of going to be, give you that indicator and then frequency is how often. So again, like how long? Mix that with how often. If they, if they're using daily and they've been doing that for 10 years, you'd start to kind of be like, okay, maybe this person has an addiction. So those three factors and then you add in intention, okay, why is this person using? What's going on in their life? Are, are trying to escape something? Are they using to deal with, you know, like self medicating, dealing with some sort of mental health issue? There's, you know, so these four factors really, really help, can help you understand whether or not you're engaging. And you can apply this to anything. You can apply this to, to things that are more chemical. But when you start to move into process addiction, it can get challenging because things like sexual food work, working out these things that we can become addicted to, you know, the duration, intensity and frequency. We have to eat every day, right? We have to, you know, eat a certain amount of food every day. So all of these things kind of become moot. But in those process addictions, you really, really want to hone in on intention. Okay, why are they engaging in this? You know, when they're eating, what is their pattern of eating? Are they eating and then binging? Are, you know, are they a ton of promiscuous sex. And then there's. There's some sort of consequences coming from that. Right. So intention becomes really, really important when you're talking about process addiction. And then lastly, what I wanted to say here is, you know, what is a process addiction? So you look at, like, things like shopping, sex, food, gambling, gaming, social media work, these sorts of things that we can engage in that are behavior. So process addictions or behavioral addictions. And then substance addictions are things obviously like street drugs, pharmaceuticals, alcohol, and steroids. Actually, a lot of people don't really believe that steroids can become addictive because they're not actually addictive in the sense of biologically, but they can be psychologically addictive in the sense of the result that it's giving you can become addictive. So, and this is actually, I added this one because it's quite prevalent in our community. A lot of people don't know this, but there's a lot of steroid use amongst gay men. And it's. Yeah, it can become very problematic because we have a lot of body image issues in our community. So we do see a lot of steroid use. So, yeah, that's my. My little spiel. Hopefully that stimulated some things for you guys to be able to share when you're talking about your own. Your own things. So let's start with Michael. How has addiction shown up in your life? [00:13:22] Speaker B: Oh, first of all, that was really, really great, Matt. I think super helpful for me. And I love the way you. I love the way you organized it so concisely, so cleanly. So thank you. Yeah, really good. [00:13:33] Speaker A: Welcome. And one thing I want to say before you answer for both of you, because you might not even resonate with the term addiction, and some people listening might not either. So you could even replace the word addiction with compulsion, because compulsion is like, you know, just doing a behavior over and over and over again. It doesn't have to necessarily be an addiction. So you could say, like, how has compulsion or addiction shown up in your life? [00:13:54] Speaker B: Very good point. I think that will help a lot of the listeners, viewers as well, who may not identify with that word addiction, but I think we can all identify with some compulsive behaviors. [00:14:02] Speaker A: Right, Exactly. Yeah. [00:14:04] Speaker B: Okay. So how has it showed up in my life? So for me, the compulsive behaviors, because I wouldn't have called. Called them addictions, now that you've said that, I wouldn't have called them addictions at the time, but my compulsive behavior has shown up in the darkest times of my life. And that's where it feels like it has gotten out of control for me. Right. So what I mean by that is I have. In those moments, I didn't want to face the truth of my experience, the truth of my life, the truth of my thoughts, the truth of my feelings, especially the emotions. For me, personally, looking at it, it was loneliness and shame at the core. Of course, there was the other ones that came around at inadequacy, disappointment, sadness, all these other things. But for me, it was. It was loneliness for sure. And then at the core, shame of that. So in those dark periods, of course, it's going to be easier for me in my life to turn to these external pleasures instead of facing that internal pain. So, you know, where I live in, in a very gay urban area, downtown Toronto, there's lots of external pleasures. There's no shortage of ways to find pleasure here, right? Be it substances or sex or what have you. So why. Why would I turn inwards and face the thing that I was not wanting to face, that loneliness when I had all these other options here? So it made sense to me at the time. And of course, this was not happening. I wasn't like logically thinking, oh, I'm feeling pain and I don't want to feel it. This all happened. The awareness came later, right? So for me, my personal favorite pleasures were sex, casual sex and hookups and drinking and partying and that. That life. So at the time, this was in my 20s, I filled up my calendar and I made sure my calendar was filled with either hookup or hookups each day, parties or just things to do where that was kind of the vibe, you might want to call it a scene queen kind of thing. But there's always something going on. I always had a hookup planned, a date going on or whatever. And this was all to avoid being alone with myself. God forbid I was alone for a little while, because then I would be forced to face my own thoughts. I would be forced to face those feelings. They would just be there because they were always there. But what I was doing was just trying to distract myself. Or numb is the word we like to use. Right? And what compounded this? And thank you for mentioning that social aspect, Matt. What compounded this was, again, where I live, there was no shortage of men. And I was on apps like Grindr and Scruff and all these things. So, I mean, literally, I could just pop up with my phone and boom, there was somebody right there. So it was very readily available for me, including the substances at gay bars, right. And drinking so as men, sex, party, substances repeat over and over and over. Not once did I, or only when I was by myself did I have that pain of being alone or feeling lonely. And it was an emotional issue for me. So, yeah, at the time, that was my only outlet to connect with others, was going to these spaces, doing this thing. So I didn't. I didn't realize there were alternatives. And that's why I love this podcast and I love what we've built with the Gaiman's Brotherhood and whatnot, because hopefully we're telling people, hey, yeah, you can enjoy that. But also we're having these conversations over here and there are alternatives. So because I didn't face the actual core loneliness of my pain, I continue that cycle, just numbing, numbing, numbing, numbing, numbing, over and over and over. And I thought, oh, I'm lonely. If I'm lonely, then I need to go be with people. But the way I was being with people was in a physical sense, and what I was really craving was an emotional connection, not necessarily just a physical one. And I got this confused at the time, and we talked about that here as well. Right. Because the core issue for me wasn't. Wasn't. It wasn't a physical loneliness issue. It was a emotional illness. So that's how it's shown up for me in the darkest periods of my life. I will say that. And I'm looking forward to. I'm looking forward to the next episode where we can talk about how we got through this. [00:18:03] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, me too. [00:18:04] Speaker B: But I'll save that for later. [00:18:06] Speaker A: Okay. [00:18:07] Speaker B: Reno, what about you? [00:18:10] Speaker C: So, first of all, yeah, thank you, Matt, for the, like, thorough and in depth exploration and articulation of. Of addiction. It is. It is deep, it is nuanced, it is complex, it is prevalent. And I'm. I'm excited. And also, you know, slightly kind of. I don't know if anxious is the word, but there's like an uneasiness that comes up around this conversation because it is a really, really vulnerable conversation. Yeah. So one of the things I want to start with is, I guess, the. The lens through which I view and experience addiction. So I heard this beautiful definition of addiction, and I thought, I really connect to this, and I think it kind of levels the playing field and creates a universality around addiction. So it's. Addiction is any behavior you continue despite it, bringing a negative consequence into your life. And I love the simplicity of that and the relatability of that, because I think most, if not all people in existence can relate to that in some capacity. For me, addiction, I think it became most noticeable when probably after I started drinking. So I started drinking at the age of 13. And this is sort of in, in my own life and in my own experience. Right, Because I'll say more to when addiction, when I first recognized addiction, which was much earlier, but I would say it started really becoming visible. I started becoming conscious of it in my own life. Around age 13. I was in high school, I had my first drink. And it was part of the social culture where I grew up. I lived in a small town and extracurriculars of the. At least of the people I spent time with. And I would say it was part of the dominant culture there included, you know, drinking, snowmobiling, ice fishing and more drinking, you know, and so I just kind of slipped right in and that's, that's where, that's where my relationship to alcohol started. And I didn't know that it was an addiction at the time. You know, as I just defined it, it becomes more clear now because when you're drinking to the point where you're, let's say, you know, doing ridiculous things or throwing up or feeling sick the next day, well, that may be something, that may be something to look at, you know, and to. And to. And to reflect on. It showed up much earlier for me though, in the sense that there's a family history of addiction. You know, there are people in my family that navigated addiction. And so I was kind of born into it essentially. And it was what I saw, you know, like almost from the very beginning and then continued to see throughout my life. So I'm no stranger to seeing it in other people. And as was stated earlier, this kind of like tees up the ball, you know, for me to become addicted as well. You know, the, the stage was set, the circumstances were as such. Right. And I also, within the community that I resided in, saw a lot of alcoholism and drug addiction, etc. You know, I. And I'm not going to say that these things are reserved for, you know, communities where there are like, you know, there was low income housing or what have you. But, but there certainly can be a connection made between a lack of resources, a lack of access, marginalization and addiction, you know, and we'll probably talk about that more later because if you're. And oppression is the other thing too. And we'll probably talk more about that later because if you're a gay man, well, gosh, you know, so it started with, with, with alcohol or so I thought. But There was also food. There was also food. Food was used as a substitute for connection. So when my mom was not available, well, you know, food and entertainment just plop us in front of the tv, you know, give us, give us, you know, some food. You turn on the television and there you go. Right. And I don't have a judgment about that. Like, I've, I've reconciled with that, because what I understand is, you know, we're all just doing what makes sense to us at the time. And, and so, you know, there's forgiveness there. And also what I see in looking back is that that was, that was the beginnings of an addiction to food and entertainment and distraction, you know, or a way of coping with the lack of connection. And then, you know, there was a period where I started to explore and experiment with drugs and of course, technology as well. You know, I loved video games. I wouldn't say I was addicted to them, but gosh, when they invented this pretty little thing called the, you know, the cell phone. Oh, and I got to carry it around with me, it was like trouble, distraction in the palm of my hand, in my pocket, and I could carry it around and everyone else was doing it, so why not, you know, and, and there was, yeah, there was a bit of, there was a bit of, you know, exploration and experimentation with drugs. And I saw very quickly that that was going to be a very slippery and unfortunate slope. And so I, I watched other people get sick, I watched other people go to rehab, I watched other people die. And I just, you know, I just very quickly, I was like, that's not the direction I'm going in. And I just pivoted. You know, that was enough. That was enough for me when it came to those particular substances. But alcohol drinking continued for quite some time. And what I'll share here today is that I have been alcohol free now for almost six months. It'll be six months on the 28th. I don't really, you know, I wouldn't say I do drugs. I've dabbled with psilocybin, mushrooms. I don't like cannabis. And the thing with mushrooms for me is I look at them as a medicine. And so that's, that's how I use them when I use them, which is very rare. And it's a very intentional space that I create when I use them. But, but even that isn't often. And I'm just really looking currently at ways to increase the degree to which I'm able to show up fully and be fully present within my life, you know, and, and I'm really starting to pay attention to some of the addictive patterns and tendencies that I have that are, you know, that are preventing that from being possible. And the last thing I want to say is this. There's. There's a list of addictions. You know, like, so we have drugs, we have alcohol, we have food, we have sex, we have money. You know, we have technology. And then there's something I discovered called the four aggravations, which include self doubt, negative thinking, resentment, and procrastination. And so again, like in the name of sort of leveling the playing field, it feels. It feels important to maybe acknowledge some of those things that kind of like fly under the radar but continue to create a negative experience in our lives, you know? So I, I think. I think that's it for now. Yeah. At last thing, tech, obviously I mentioned that earlier. [00:27:41] Speaker A: I'm. [00:27:42] Speaker C: I'm currently working on, like, having a different relationship with my phone and with social media. So. Yeah, yeah, that's me. What about you, Matt? [00:27:54] Speaker A: Well, I just want to say congratulations. That's a pretty big deal. So on the 28th of January, it's six months. [00:27:59] Speaker C: No, of December, actually. Yeah. [00:28:01] Speaker A: Okay. Okay. [00:28:02] Speaker C: So. And it's. It's been a year of first, too. It's really fascinating. Like my first birthday since I was 13, sober from alcohol. You know that, like, first Christmas, you know, alcohol free. Like, it's. Yeah, it's. There, There have been a lot of firsts and it's, you know, my. I tip my hat to anyone who, who's on that journey as well. [00:28:25] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:26] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:28:26] Speaker A: I look forward to hearing more about that in the next episode. When we talk about recovery and how your journey to sobriety has been for you, there's. It's a, It's a very spiritual journey. I've been on it many, many times in many years. So. Yeah. Cool. [00:28:38] Speaker C: Thanks, Matt. [00:28:39] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. What, what came up before I go into my story is I just want to. I want to share what came up. Like this, this whole notion of living in a capitalistic society and how everything is encouraged around consumption. Right. So you have these forces that be. That are kind of marketing to us, and then we're the consumers. And when you think about consumption, it's like, what are we putting into our minds? What are we putting into our bodies? And, and we really are the guinea pigs of society when we are consuming and like, for example, smoking cigarettes. There's been so much billions of dollars put into marketing when you were able to market. Right. And then those People that generation were, they sold it to the generations below them, right Through Hollywood, through these different things. And it's just, it's just so up, right. And I'm in this place in my life now where. Well, and have been for a long time around, I have an anger towards that aspect of capitalism. I think capitalism is beautiful in its own way. But it's, you know, that aspect of capitalism where it's like they use psychology to, to, to market to us and, and if you're, if we're not educated, we just consume without even thinking about it. So I'm come from the mentality of question everything. Like don't just consume something because everyone else is consuming it, question it. Right. So I just wanted to put that out there. And I know addiction is beyond that. It's beyond being able to just question. It's like there's something going on in our brain chemistry that we can't escape that. Right. So there's, there's something more than that. But when you do get out of that, that, that really cyclical ritual aspect of an habitual aspect of addiction, you can start to question what do I want to put in my body? Do I want to continue to use pharmaceuticals the way I have been or these sorts of things? There's lots of things or sugar, you know, a lot of these things that people are consuming without even thinking about it. So. All right, so my, my journey with substances. So it's, it's very extensive. My resume is very long when it comes to using substances. So I think I started. The very first thing I used was nicotine. So I started when I was 10 years old with my friends, my three buddies. He had an older brother who would get cigarettes for us and then we would smoke in that back alley. And that was my very first experience. And then by 11, I was drinking alcohol and smoking pot and I actually got like busted by my mom and I got really sick at a sleepover with a friend and we, we, we, we got, ended up getting a boot at the store. That's what we used to call it. And someone bought us alcoholic. Could you imagine buying alcohol for an 11 year old boy? Like that's crazy that people would do that for us. And then I ended up passing out and was puking and stuff in this field and they called my mom. My mom had to come get me and it was like this big ordeal. So, so that was, and then I, I got into junior high school and I started. This was around 13. I started using mushrooms and ecstasy and I was Smoking pot daily. I was smoking pot in school. Like I would be in the alley in the morning, blazing and then I would go into class. And that was how I got literally all through junior high school I was smoking pot and. And then by the age of 16 I was introduced to cocaine and I started doing that recreationally on the weekends. And then by the age of 17 that had developed into pretty significant addiction of cocaine. And then around halfway through the my 17th year, right as graduating from high school, I got into crack. So from the age of 17 to 24, I was addicted to crack. And that was, that's a whole other ball game that, that drug. It's. It will ruin your life very, very quickly. And I stole a bunch of money from my father, stole money from different family members, pawned off a bunch of stuff, sold a car. Like all just really dark, dark time in my life. And believe it or not I actually, I can't remember if I shared on this, on this podcast, but while I was going through my schooling I was using crack. Like I would go on a binge like once every couple months and I would just spend like a grand and just like annihilate myself and. Right. And get similar to what you were sharing, Michael is it was a lot of loneliness. I was afraid of having sex with men because I what that meant for me, I didn't want to have sex with women. And I think for me that, that feeling of being like so horny and wanting to have sex with guys but not being able to, it was really fueling my addiction. So I was like, well if I'm not getting my, those needs met for dating and love and relationships and sex which is very, very much important part of our brain developing and our emotions. I was using drugs like cocaine and crack and these sort and ecstasy and these things were really helping me get through that. I wasn't getting this need met for love and sex and intimacy with men. And, and then by the age of, and actually so I, I actually never had, I never had sex sober until I was 25 I think. So every sexual encounter that I had between the, I guess the age of 16 is when I first had sex and then with, with women and then 18 men and then up until 25. So that basically that seven year period I, I was always drunk or high and I didn't know how to have sex sober. Like it was so foreign for me and I didn't know how to bring emotions and sex together. It felt so repulsive for me. Like I was in a relationship with, with a guy for eight years. And the first few years of us dating, I always would be drunk and we would only have sex on the weekends when we would go out to the bar and stuff. And the sex was very transactional, even with him, even being in, in relationship with him, because this thought of like bringing my, my whole self, you know, and for me it was like the shame and the disgust that I had around being gay and not accepting myself and, and I had a lot of acne at that time in my life. I just felt like, I just felt really gross. And so me sharing that part of me, it just felt way too vulnerable. And, and then when I got to about 25 years old, that's actually when I sought out therapy. And it was because I think I've shared this on the podcast before. I was blushing, I was. Face was getting red. In like the weirdest interactions, there would be nothing to be embarrassed about, but my face would go beat red. And I. And that's when I learned about Brene Brown and vulnerability and all these things and, and learning how to like show up and expose myself. And, and it was a long journey that I had been on because I had been so numbed out from drugs and alcohol and dissociating. So coming back to myself, honestly, I think I'm still moving through this. It's because it was a lot of years, like, you know, almost two decades of numbing out and not really connecting to myself in the, in the ways that I am now. So, yeah, so it's. And then I went through a period of, you know, I went to rehab when I was 18 and that was like a basic kind of like a month and then it was a three month program, but a month inpatient. And the day I got out, I used and that was, you know, 18, 19ish. Started going to therapy. Never did the AA or any route. It just. I was too insecure to get up and speak in front of people and stuff. So I did private therapy for. Every week for years. And that was really helpful. And, and then I had, I started to really get on my spiritual path around the age of 25, 26, studied shamanism. You know, my schooling was complete and I was working in, you know, drug and alcohol treatment facilities. So I actually didn't use for a long period of time. That was when my sobriety really started and that was years. And then I, I did a lot of deep therapeutic work. I did a lot of plant medicines and things and I got myself to a place where I wasn't shackled by my addiction anymore, and I was able to start, like. Like, I brought back in, like, smoking pot and drinking alcohol. But I found for me that it wasn't something that I wanted. So I did that maybe for a few years. And then the. My relationship to drugs and alcohol now is that I. I will maybe once or twice a year, I'll drink alcohol, and it's like a very special occasion. Like, I came out to. To see Michael, and we went out to the club one night, and I was like, I'm going to let myself go. But then I actually went home after the club, and I threw up. So my body just rejects it. Like, I think I have an allergy to alcohol. Like, my body's just like, no, don't want it. And then during the pandemic, I was smoking a lot of potential, and I was noticing that it was starting to really just affect me in negative ways. So I stopped. So I haven't actually smoked pot in probably, like, nine months or something like that. Yeah. And alcoholism runs in my family, and actually drug addiction runs in my family as well, too. So both sides. So more drug addiction on one side and alcoholism on the other. And both my parents have struggled with their own forms of addiction. And so it's very much, you know, there. It's within my family. So I have a very strong. And even just talking about it now, I'm like, whoa. Like, I actually. I have a very, very strong history with. With addiction. And it's, you know, it's dear to my heart. And I worked in the space for 10 years, and now I haven't because I burnt out from it. It's a very challenging. Very challenging field to work in. So anybody that's listening that works in the addiction space, like, I. A huge shout out to you because, you know, the foot soldiers that. The work in addictions, the addiction field, it's a lot. It takes a huge toll on people. So I just wanted to share some love for the people that are working in that space and for people who are struggling with addiction, It's a very, very challenging thing to deal with. [00:38:45] Speaker C: Can I ask you a question, Matt? [00:38:47] Speaker A: Yeah, please. [00:38:49] Speaker C: What would you say is most challenging about it? Because, I mean, it seems obvious that it is a challenging space to be in, but. Yeah, what makes it particularly challenging? [00:39:01] Speaker A: So for me, it was the inconsistency. So when I was working in inpatient facilities, it's. It tends to be good. I like that. But outpatient people don't show up for sessions because they're Hungover or they're. They're inconsistent. And then when I moved into private practice and I was doing solely addiction work in private practice, you'd have people that would reach out for consults. They wouldn't show up. Like, it's a very, very challenging thing because it's affecting your mind and your mood so significantly. So that was the biggest thing for me. And then you can't actually work with somebody and diagnose them or. Or understand what's going on with them, because withdrawal, for example, of drugs and alcohol can mimic certain mental health conditions. So it's just a very messy soup kind of to work in. And I Just. For me, it was. It, you know, 10 years was enough. I've put in my time, and I wanted to transition into something different. Yeah. [00:39:51] Speaker C: Thank you. [00:39:52] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay, so how do you see addiction showing up in the gay community? Michael? [00:40:00] Speaker B: Yeah, first of all, guys, this is great. Like, I. I'm getting to know you guys. I say this every time. We've been doing this for years. But I feel like I get to know a new layer of both of you each time you do this, and I think it's really helpful. And I know. I know that there's people out there who feel the same way. So thank you for sharing and showing up and being so vulnerable, especially when you're talking about both of you having dealt with this at such a young age. You had said, like, 13. You know, Reno and. And Matt are also very young. Like, I was such a. Like, not that kid. I was. I didn't get into anything until I was in, like, high school, like late high school university. But anyway, so, yeah, I just wanted to. To acknowledge that and say thank you. [00:40:44] Speaker A: Yeah, thanks, Michael. That's sweet. [00:40:47] Speaker B: All right, so how do I see addiction showing up in the gay community? Well, I think we covered. I think everyone's story here is relatable, right? Whether it's sex, substances. You know, Matt, you. I'm really happy you brought up steroids at the beginning. That's. That's what's one of them for sure, that I see especially as I am a gym goer myself and it's, yes, very common. I guess I'll speak to my own life. Like I said, I live downtown Toronto in the Village, and I do still like to go out and party sometimes. So, yes, I see it in. On the dance floor. Anyone who's been to a gay bar, gay club, party, any. Any event like that, there's drugs all over the place. It's easy to find. Take your Pick mdma, ghb, ketamine, cocaine, all the rest of them. Everything under the sun, all their variants and everything else. And I'm not saying that everyone who uses them is. Is. Is. Is addicted to them by any means. Don't forget what Matt had talked about. There's use, misuse and abuse. It's really, really important to note that. So I'm not by any means saying that that's the case where everyone there is addicted to drugs. [00:41:53] Speaker A: It's not totally. [00:41:54] Speaker B: Yeah, but I see it a lot. That's where I see it. And the other one, similarly is the party in play scene. So that's where you would take all of those and then add in crystal meth or Tina. And again, downtown Toronto, where I live, if you pop open your grinder, there's going to be a lot of people who are looking to play pnp, party and play, looking for tea, all that thing, all that, all that stuff. And so I remember a few years ago being like, what the hell is this? Like, why are so many. What's going on here? And then I learned it is highly, highly addictive. [00:42:28] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. [00:42:29] Speaker B: So I think that is where I see it. And like I had said with sex as well. Well, and then that's my story. I think more so, not. Not so much what we're addicted to, but how it plays out is the pattern. Like, there's that, like listening to you guys talk. There's always an emotional trigger. It's always a feeling. A feeling. It's what it boils down to, an emotion feeling. We talked about loneliness. We talked about shame. You guys have said words like disgust, disconnected, repressed. That is the core and that's the emotional trigger. And that leads to the craving piece, like the desire. My desire was for people. So I went to sex. And then my use, or what I did to try to satisfy that craving, was sex and hookups. And then there was the fact that afterwards I didn't feel any better. I still felt lonely because guess what? I didn't actually. It didn't actually do anything about loneliness. So I think that's the pattern. And I think that the core. I'm not sure about the straight community, but I think shame and loneliness, my two are ones that I see happening a lot. Maybe there's other ones as well, but those two emotions are. Inability to process and feel those things is really a pattern. I see. And that could manifest itself in so many ways, whether you turn to substances, whether you turn to sex, whether you turn to anything else, really. There's no shortage of ways. Right. Like we talked. Talked about. But I think that's. That's it. And I think the. The shame piece is what it really boils down to for a lot of gay. Gay guys, maybe queer people as well. So. Yeah, I guess I. I'll. I'll leave it there. Yeah. For specific to the gay community. Yeah. [00:44:18] Speaker A: Yeah. I wrote down two points just from that share, so. Thank you. Like, finishing. [00:44:25] Speaker C: Did you see me take it out? [00:44:27] Speaker B: Yeah, we're taking it out. [00:44:28] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. I'm reflecting on my relationship to addiction, and something that I'm noticing is, like, I was looking at each moment. You know, it was like, okay, you know, when I had my first cigarette, when I had my first drink, when I had my first toke, you know, and everything else, like, there was this. The. The recipe was, like, social pressure, curiosity, and. And like, a desire for belonging, I think, as well. And, like, that belonging piece was probably a bit, like, subtle. Like, it was kind of. It was there, but I wasn't really. I don't know that I was really conscious of it, but looking back, I can, like, really empathize with that little boy who was just like. Like, I just want to belong. So, like, you know. Sure. Okay. So it's. It's. It's really interesting to. To note that and to notice that. That that recipe was present in. In every one of those moments, you know, from, like, early age, even into adulthood, still, there was a bit of social pressure, the desire for belonging, and just a hint of curiosity, and it's like, boom, there we go. So I. I also think it's important to acknowledge that in some cases, and probably in many or most if not all, it starts out innocently in a way, you know, in the context of the gay community. Well, what I saw first was that, like, the two Ds, drinking and drama, to be honest, and I don't know if drama is an addiction, but I think so. And. And so, you know, that, like, for me, that's what I saw more than anything. The way we. The way we had sex, the way we connected, the way we celebrated, the way we socialized, the way we had fun and celebrate. Like, it. Like, it was all. [00:46:45] Speaker B: It's. [00:46:45] Speaker C: It all seemed to be centered around substance and particularly alcohol, you know, and then at the later hours of the night, the real came out, you know, as we know. And. And then within all of that, there seemed to be this, like. And I. And I get it because, like, I'm in on the joke too, but this, like. Like this, like, drama piece. And I don't know how that fits in, but it. I just saw. I was like, wow. [00:47:18] Speaker A: It. [00:47:19] Speaker C: It seemed like such a sort of disconnective, counterproductive way to engage and interact, and it seemed to be causing hurt and harm in some ways, like entertainment and fun in some ways. I. And again, I, like, I'm cheeky. I can, like, spar with the best of them, you know. And also I was like, I don't know, something about this feels off. Like, maybe we could just say, like, I want to hug, you know, or like I'm feeling some kind of way. But that I would say, like, for me, that's. That's what was most visible in. In the gay community. And the. The piece around, you know, well, drugs and sex. I think I did see that, but I wasn't as exposed to it, and I found myself kind of shying away from it because it was triggering for me in some ways. Now I experimented with drugs, but again, like, I. I've. You know, I fairly promptly shied away from a lot of that stuff because, yeah, it was just so triggering for me. Like, anytime I would see someone who was high, I just got really uncomfortable and sometimes even, like, defensive in a way, like, not. Not toward them, but just my guard was up because I had grown up. Up in environments where that was the case, and it just flashbacks, you know, I was like, nope, no, thank you. And so, yeah, I. I think what I. What I would. What I would also say is that, you know, my heart really goes out to my peers in the gay community because we navigate a lot of pain and a lot of challenge and a lot of adversity simply for existing, for being, you know, from early on, maybe for some of us, like, right from the beginning, you know, and that can be really hard. And life is already difficult, and we find ways to cope and to deal and. And. And sometimes that looks like drugs, sometimes that looks like alcohol, sometimes that looks like sex or food or, you know, what. Whatever it is. And so I'm. I'm very empathetic. You know, it's not. It's not easy, and it takes incredible and remarkable courage to navigate this world sober, I guess, pre. Like, fully, fully here, fully feeling fully present, you know, without the mask and without the stuff. It's hard, you know. So if you're on that journey, my hats off to you. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. [00:50:45] Speaker A: That was really beautiful, Reno. I. I felt emotional when you were sharing, because it's like. It's true. It's really true. The minority stress. And the same thing could be said. You know, the gay community is one minority stressed group. You got other things. Then you have people that are cross crossed over in both these groups. Right. Could be a person of color, minority stress, being gay, minority stress. And it's just compound. So yeah, I'm a firm believer that we're all doing our best to get, to get by, truly. And yeah, and I think the, the anecdote really is to connection. I think so many of us are struggling with deep loneliness and disconnection and we need, we need each other. Right. It's, it's so important. Yeah. So sex is probably the one that I see the most in the gay community. And actually I shouldn't say I don't work with addiction anymore because that's the, that's the area that I work with now. I have a lot of gay men reaching out to me, wanting to do deep work on sexual addiction and compulsion and. But it always ends up being shame and trauma work because that's why they're, and they're disconnected, they're lonely. So they're seeking connection in ways. So it's, it's. You're working when, when I'm working with addiction, sex addiction, I'm working with intimacy, avoidance. That's, that's essentially what I work with. And it's, it's really interesting. So yeah, drugs, again, like Michael said, party and play. And. But it's interesting, the party in place scene is why it's so addicting, is because it's offering, but just in a dysfunctional way exactly what the person's looking for. They're looking for connection and community. And when you're in a room of 15 other guys that are partying and playing, there's still camaraderie, connection, community that's happening. But you're deteriorating your life together. That's the thing. So if we can take the drugs out and learn how to connect with each other in intimate ways and sex both, I think that will help. Right. So yeah, it's an interesting, very, very interesting phenomenon. The party in play scene. I think a lot of gay men are addicted to external validation. I think that's an anecdote or temporary anecdote. We'll say to shame. And then yeah, I think we use drugs and alcohol to numb trauma, shame and loneliness. Again, like we, it just, it's such a repetitive thing that shows up constantly as these three kind of the three headed monster in the gay community is trauma, shame and loneliness. And yeah, it's really fascinating. And then I wanted to share a little bit, a little anecdote from myself and just it's. This is still showing up for me actually is I find it hard to find connection in the gay community, to be completely honest. And this, in this area I'm talking more so romantically. Okay. I am demisexual. I'm highly sensitive. I have these things that make intimacy and sex different for me. And the typical gay guy is just does not meet those needs for me because we're different in a way. I require much more slowed down ways of moving towards sex. And, and I, I prefer intimacy first and sex after. These things aren't very common in the gate gate community. So I deal with my own aspect of loneliness when it comes to this. And you know, one of the areas that I'm. You said Reno, that you're trying to change your relationship with your phone and this is what's coming up for me. So I'm trying to slide over my apps of things that I just mindlessly scroll and I'm moving in things like my guitar tuner and my, my Spanish learning app, the Duolingo. I'm putting those down on the, on the base and then these other ones a bit more hidden because I don't want that. But then when I did that I'm kind of like what's happening is this impulse at the end of the day is I don't want to go towards those apps. I want to go towards where I can find connection. And like Tinder, I'm scrolling and I'm like looking and hoping for somebody to come along that's going to be like I'm demisexual and I'm looking for this and, and whatever. So I do feel loneliness right now and it's showing up and it's, it's affecting my behavior. And put. I wouldn't say I'm addicted to, to my phone, but there's for sure compulsion there around like continuously scrolling in this with looking for and hoping that this need, this unmet need that I have will go met. Which is for connection. Right in more. So sexual intimacy is really what I'm looking for. I have connection, like platonic connection. I got plenty of that. But it's the sexual intimacy that is really, really lacking in my life. So what else did I want to say? Lonely. I think that was it. Yeah, those were the, the points that I had. [00:55:23] Speaker C: So you, you sparked a lot there. And I just want to say one thing which is like, well, first of all, thank you for sharing all of that. Because it. I mean, we could have a whole other conversation about all of that. That. [00:55:36] Speaker A: Take your time if you need to share. Yeah. Don't you have to rush. [00:55:39] Speaker C: Well, something I've been noticing and, you know, and bless this community, you know, the existence of this community and, you know, other communities that are working to, like, sort of offset this or change it. I think a lot about the environments that we gay men commune in, or rather, like, don't commune in, you know, because when I think of the essence of that word, there's like a depth to it. And my experience is that sometimes that depth is actually missing in these communities and spaces that I'm speaking of, like some of these apps and the nightclubs, etc. Now, I'm not saying that connection doesn't happen in those spaces because I've had a lot of fun in those spaces and I've made friends in those spaces and I have dance the night away in those spaces. And I've, you know, I. I could certainly spend ages reminiscing about my time in those spaces and all the fun and experiences I've had in them. And also, at some point, I started to notice that there was this yearning and this longing for a layer and a level deeper, you know, and that it somehow seemed hard to reach that and access that. And so, you know, what I'm really excited about is that in the recognition of that longing and that yearning for that depth of connection, we then get to start looking at and creating ways to have that, to access that. The gay men's brotherhood is an example. I went to this amazing festival this summer, Ignite, you know, I've gone to some of the Body Electric events and I host some of my own stuff. And it's amazing because what people say is like, wow, you know, I felt so connected in this space. I met new people. I had, you know, these really deep and juicy conversations. It's like, well, what makes that possible? You know, it's the intent of the space, the energy of the space that is so important. So I think if we keep going to places where we're experiencing disappointment as a result of, you know, the sort of culture and environment in those spaces, then we get to create spaces like this and other spaces where, you know, where there's an alternative. Because otherwise, you know, like, what. We can accept what's there and, you know, or. And tolerate what's there. We can create what we actually want, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:58:23] Speaker A: I love that. And you look at the, like, the way that the Gay culture has formed. It's like we all met in bath houses, we met in bars, we met in these areas that are really conducive to using alcohol, using drugs, poppers, these sorts of things. So that's, that's, you know, and for me, I want to just re. I want to iterate that it's both and not either or. I think we want to have those environments where you can. You can play and indulge in the things that you want to indulge in. And then on the other side, we need more community where there's healing, where there's connection, platonic connection. Like, I just got back from facilitating at a retreat for a week and it was no sex, no sexual energy. Leave that at home and come and connect and bring your heart. And it was the most amazing thing, like connecting with people where you're being conscious of your sexual energy, not bringing it forward, leaving it within yourself. And it was amazing how there was safety in the community that isn't there when there's this cruisy energy around, like, you know, because the hot guy in the group is going to get all the attention from everybody. So the attention was dispersed amongst everybody because people were there looking to connect with people on a. On a. On a platonic. In a platonic way. So it. I think we need more of this. That's what this is. And I think that's the, the reason why we have brought this vision into life is, you know, this is a. Primarily a platonic community for people to learn how to connect, heal, grow together, evolve, and then offshoot. That is different. Other subsets that can come from that. Right? [00:59:51] Speaker B: So, yeah, you guys just referred to my men's groups. That's exactly what we do there. [00:59:57] Speaker A: Yes. [00:59:58] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:59:59] Speaker B: And it's funny, the first, the first topic we cover is minority stress, like from the jump. And then in my, in my welcome, that's one of the first things we talk about is I kind of set the rules for. Okay, yes, we are all kind of eyeing each other here. Let's call it out. We're all doing it. We're looking at who's hot, who we want to be paired with, because I pair them in weeks and I just say it. I'm like, listen, that's not what this is about. If you want to do that afterwards, by all means, go for it. But like, notice that, like, notice already how we're all doing that. Everyone's like, oh, yeah, I'm doing that. And it's really important. So everything you guys are saying is 100% true. And I've run these groups now. This is my third one in a row. One was about sexual empowerment where we talked about sex without necessarily having it be cruisy or hookupy, but talk. Men having conversations about sex. And then this one's more so a variety of topics, but either way, it's all very true. People will say the same thing, like, hey, wait a minute. We are all kind of having a lot of the same issues, and how nice is it to connect and speak and listen to other people share their experiences and then guess what? We all feel less alone. [01:01:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:01:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:01:08] Speaker A: So important. So important. Yeah. [01:01:11] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:01:13] Speaker A: Final thoughts before we wrap this one up. [01:01:16] Speaker B: Yeah. Excited for the next one. [01:01:18] Speaker C: Me too. Yeah. Yeah. And I. I guess, like, I would just say I, you know, like, wow, have a good time. You know, get your on. Like, it's all. It's all good. And also, like, like, if there's a part of you that's recognizing that maybe some of what you're up to isn't hidden, isn't giving anymore, you know, then. Then like, maybe be open to. To something new, something different, and it's going to be uncomfortable at first, you know, at least for me, it's been speaking from experience. This journey that I'm on. It is really. I mean, I was going to the club sober before and dancing anyway, but, like, it takes real courage to show up in a space like that and to be like, I'm just gonna dance and I'm not gonna numb anything that's coming up around it, you know? So again, I say my hat's off to you if, you know, if that's your decision. And also if you want to, like, go out and get your drink and you'll on, that's cool too, you know, no judgment. Just like, you know, just. Just like you said earlier, Matt, I think conscious consumption, like, be aware of what you're up to and how it's affecting you. Yeah, that's fundamental, you know? [01:02:38] Speaker A: Yeah. Well said. Yeah, yeah, well said. All right, well, come and join us next week, obviously, for the final part of this conversation, and come and join us in the Facebook group, the Gamon's Brotherhood. Good. We're going to have our conversation the last Thursday of this month about addiction and recovery. So come and share your own stories and leave some comments on YouTube. We want to know how, you know, what's your relationship to addiction? How's this showing up for you? How are you seeing this show up in the gay community? And if you're listening to us on your favorite podcast platform. And you liked what you heard today, five star rating. Because then this will put us into the ears of, of the people that need to hear us. So we appreciate your rating and your sharing of this episode. That would be really great. And if you want to know more about what we're doing at the Gayman's Brotherhood, you can go to gay brotherhood.com. all right, see you next week.