Coming Out to Family

[00:00:01] Speaker A: Hello everyone and welcome to Gay Men going Deeper. This is a podcast by the Gay Men's Brotherhood where we talk about personal development, mental health and sexuality. Today we are your hosts. We have Matt Lanle. He is an intuitive life and spiritual coach and counselor focusing on healing and empowerment. We also have Reno Johnston, who is a spiritual, life, love and business coach. And I am Michael DiIorio, a life and wellness coach specializing in sexuality, relationships and self confidence. We each have our own coaching practices, but in this podcast we're sharing all of our best stuff and today's topic we are going to be talking about coming out to family. Some of the questions we'll be unpacking today are how did you come out to your family? How open are you with your family about your sexuality and love life? And what tips would you offer someone who is considering coming out to their family? All right, reminder for our audience out there that we'll be continuing this discussion on the last Thursday of the month in the Gay Men's Brotherhood Zoom Hangout. This is where we give you guys, our audience, a chance to share your own thoughts on the topics that we discuss here. So to join us, go to the Gay Men's Brotherhood Facebook group and check out the Events tab to rsvp. I'll put the link in the show notes. And if you don't have Facebook, that's okay. Just make sure you get on our mailing list and we'll email you the Zoom link the day before. Reminder that this podcast and YouTube channel are listener and viewer supported. So if you enjoy what we're creating here, you can support us by making a donation to the show using the link in the show notes. Also, you can subscribe to get early access to episodes on Apple Podcasts. All of your support helps us to continue making content and supporting this community, so we thank you very much in advance for that. And finally, if you want to accelerate your personal development journey, please check out our coaching collection. It's includes two courses, healing your shame and building better relationships, plus 45 premium personal development coaching videos on topics such as body positivity, relationships, self confidence and community. So head over to gay men going deeper.com for more info. All right, let's jump in. Coming out to your family. FYI, you guys know that I like to do a little bit of digging into the archives before we start these episodes. So this is actually the third episode we've done specifically on Coming Out. The first one was episode 15 called Coming Out. Then we had one called Coming out later in life, which was episode 46. And today, FYI, is episode number 167. Whoa. Crazy. [00:02:32] Speaker B: I remember that first one. Yeah. [00:02:34] Speaker A: I think we were all there. [00:02:36] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:02:37] Speaker A: So it's been a while. It's been a while since we've done this topic. And today is specifically about coming out to family. And I'll give the audience a little bit of a background on how we do this. So we kind of, like, bounce ideas off of each other a few weeks in advance, and it's always about the theme. And this month's theme in the gay men's brotherhood is family, I believe. And so our episode a couple weeks ago was Family Matters. And so when I was thinking about this, I thought, you know, is a big topic for a lot of people, and whether you're out to your family or not, I think this is also really important because we're always really coming out. Right. So just because you come out once to, let's say, mom and dad, doesn't mean you're not still coming out to extended family and whatnot. And then the other pieces that I want to talk about is access. So it's not just about coming out, but also the access that we give our families with respect to our. Our gay lives. So that's another aspect I want to talk about today. All right. So coming out to family, as I said, is a pivotal moment, shall we say, for most queer people. It's one of those milestones. I certainly remember the first time I came out to my first family member, and some of them actually, I don't remember at all. And other ones I do very vividly. It's very interesting how that happens. But either way, I want to say that this is a highly individualized process. Again, we are not here to say what is the right or wrong way to do anything. We are just here sharing our story, sharing our experiences in hopes that it can inspire you and hopes that it can give you some tips, maybe. And, of course, we'll be sharing our own tips as well. So, you know, we talk a lot about coming out and how it's a good thing. But I also want to reiterate that sometimes it's not. Sometimes the best choice is to not come out, and we can talk about that as well. So we're not here always saying that, oh, yeah, you have to come out. You have to be authentic. You have to show people who you are. There are absolutely cases where that is not the right choice. Right. So always make your own choices, whatever it is you want to do, get some support, get get people out there who care for you, who help you, or even professionals who can help you make the right choice for you. Now, what is it about family that makes it extremely difficult? I think that regardless of whatever age you do it, I'm 40 years old now, and I'm still coming out to family members, extended family, but it's still hard. Like, why is this so hard? But I think it's because our families know us the best. Or maybe. Sorry, that's not true. They've known us the longest. They certainly don't know me the best, that's for sure. But they've known me for the longest. And so they know that little boy version of me. And so when I'm with my family, that little boy version of me is very much alive and well, and he's there, and he gets triggered very easily. There's a lot of resistance sometimes around that. I think that makes it extra challenging. Our families can be some of our biggest poetry points of trigger. And if you're someone who lives with your family regardless of what age you are, I think it can make this even more daunting because you have to see them day in and day out. You have an existing relationship. So there's a lot of different moving parts here that can make this a very complex process. Yes. And so also, I want to talk about, for those of you who are out and everything, the level of access you give your family. I think that's really interesting. And how well do they know that gay version of you versus, yes, you may be out to them in theory, but how much do they really know you? [00:05:56] Speaker C: Right. [00:05:57] Speaker A: That. That gay aspect? So let's get started. I know the first question is a very general one, which is, how did you come out your family? And I kept it general because I really want to know. I love with Matt and Reno, I love going last because they always inspire my own share. So I want to know generally, and you could take this wherever you want. How did you come out to your family? And today we're going to start with Matt. [00:06:18] Speaker C: I knew it was coming for me. Yeah. I want to just kind of reiterate what you said off the top, because I have a thing with my family. I feel really vulnerable with my family. And I've reinvented myself many times throughout my life, and I find that every time I reinvent myself and bring a new version of myself forward, the people that I'm the most scared to bring myself forward to is my family, believe it or not. And I think it's because they, you're right, they know us the best. They've seen the evolution of us and they have perhaps a preconceived notion of who we are. [00:07:02] Speaker A: And. [00:07:05] Speaker C: That for me, kind of scares me because it's like as I'm trying to leave and come out of, of being this straight person and coming out like they're, they're going to contrast that, how they treat me, how they show up for me and what they mirror to me is going to contrast who I'm coming into. So I feel like when I'm around people that know me really well, it's like they pull me back in. And maybe that's why I've spent most of my life like moving from group to group to group and being a bit of a social butterfly. It's like I'm not going to let anybody get to know me too well. I'm going to keep. Right. And so there's this. It's made it easier for me to reinvent myself many times because I find that is, it's safer for me. So I just wanted to bring voice to that because I think that's why it can be so challenging to come out to family because they do know us the best, like you said. So this is. Oh, I'm 38, so. And I came out at 18, so I'm celebrating 20 years of, of coming out. [00:08:01] Speaker A: Woohoo. [00:08:02] Speaker C: And I just go back to how I, man, how I felt back then. Like I was lost, I was hurting really bad and I was in the midd. Middle of a really bad addiction which had a lot to do with this, with hiding who I was and being so lost and wanting to be my authentic self but being so terrified of being my authentic self. And I remember I came out to my, one of my good friends at the time, her name is Vanessa. And I told her that I was bisexual. So I was like, I'm gonna put one foot out of the closet and see how people respond. And it was like not a big deal. So I was like, okay. And then I think the next person, jeez, I can't remember who I told first actually now it might have been my dad and, or maybe it was my mom and my sister. But I anyway, with my father it was pretty easy. I remember we were driving and I just said to him like, yeah, I'm gay. And his response was he's like, oh. He's like, now I definitely am not going to be able to be a grandpa. That's what he said. And because my sister at the time was with a guy that didn't want kids. And anyway, so that kind of. It stung a little bit. But I was kind of like, well, that's not necessarily true. I could still have kids as a gay person. But anyway, so pretty easy. And then my mom and my sister, I remember I told them on Mother's Day, so 20 years ago, Mother's Day, we were going to drive out to this little small place that we would used to go hang out in Bread Creek in Alberta here. And I remember when we were just pulling off the driveway, they could tell something was wrong. And they're like, what's, you know, what's up? Or whatever. And my mom, I just said, I'm gay. And she said, yeah, I already knew. And then she said, it's so funny because she's like, I was going to ask you today if you were gay, and I was going to tell her on that same day. So my mom and I are really connected like that. Like, like telepathically. It's kind of strange. She can feel me. [00:10:08] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:10:08] Speaker C: And then it just was this, you know, the, the initial burden kind of started coming off and then, you know, you realize that it's truly. It is a. An ongoing process. You have to come out at new jobs and you have to come out at, you know, new places. And it's not. It's like, you know, part of me is like, do we have to? Like, why? Why do we have to. Other people don't say like, oh, I'm heterosexual. And they tell you that it's like. But it does, it really does influence, like, how people, you know, talk to us, like, do you have a husband versus do you have a wife? Like, it's different. Right. And it helps people understand. Understand us. So I do think it's important to, to come out and share who we are authentically. But. Yeah, so that's. And then I can't remember how it went from there. I think maybe some of my family members might have told other family members and it was just more organic. And then I think I also shared with. With family members as well. But I'm very fortunate because I don't come from a super rel and everybody in my family was very accepting of me. My uncle is gay on my maternal side. So I remember when I was struggling with my addiction and pre coming out, so I think I was about 17, actually. I. I went and lived with him in Vancouver for a while and. And that was a really nice mentorship. Even though, even though I didn't tell him I was gay. Like, I just. I think he knew I knew. And he paved, you know, the way for me in that family because everybody was very accepting and loving of him and. Except for my grandpa, actually. He hid being gay from my grandpa forever. And I think my. There was a story around my grandpa, like, knowing. But. And if I. Yeah. Anyway, it was strange, but he was a very old school guy. Yeah, that's kind of my story. Yeah, in a nutshell. [00:12:00] Speaker A: Sounds good. I mean, it sounds like you were pretty fortunate in those instances. [00:12:04] Speaker C: I was very lucky. [00:12:05] Speaker A: I also didn't know that you had a gay uncle. That's news. [00:12:08] Speaker C: I have a gunkle. [00:12:09] Speaker A: A gunkle. I am a gunkle. And so are you. [00:12:12] Speaker B: Yeah, me too. [00:12:14] Speaker A: Oh, awesome. [00:12:14] Speaker B: I never thought of that actually. It just. It just occurred to me. I knew I was a gay uncle, but I guess I just never thought of it through that lens. I was like, oh, now I'm. I'm the Gunko. [00:12:25] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:12:25] Speaker B: Wow. [00:12:26] Speaker A: We've never actually had too much besides the last episode, too much talking about our family. So the last few have been really like. I feel like I'm getting to know you guys at a new level, including this one. Like, I don't even really know our. You're coming out stories. [00:12:37] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:12:39] Speaker A: So, you know, tell us about yours. [00:12:41] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Well, one of the things I want to say too, going back to the. The opening of this conversation, is that, like, our family is. Is our point of origin. Right. So, like, the way I see it is that's where our world and our reality are formed, you know, as we know it, until we begin to sort of muck around in that and tweak it and change it and, you know, recreate it. And it's also where we're first introduced to love, safety and belonging, aside from in the womb when we're being carried. Right. So it makes perfect sense to me that. That we would sort of feel this, like, dependence or be engaged in this dependent dynamic with. With our family and within that environment, you know, because it's like, oh, this is where all my needs are met. This is where love, safety and belonging are derived from. And if I do anything to mess with that, you know, I may lose that. And then what? I die. Right. So as an adult, I know that that's not. That's not true now, but. But back then I didn't know better. My consciousness, my. My awareness was like evolving, right? My knowledge was evolving. So. So as far as me coming out goes, well, first of all, I'll jokingly say But I'm. I'm kind of serious about this. Like, I came out when I was born, you know, like, it was pretty obvious. This one's different. You know, I'm totally cool with that. But officially. Officially, I came out when I was 19 years old. And, you know, leading up to that point, there were some moments where it was pretty obvious. There was one where me and a friend were caught messing around as. As we young ones do when we're, you know, curious. And we actually weren't allowed to hang out after that, which I. I get. Like, bless their hearts. Our parents were doing what made sense. And I think in those moments when something like that happens, they're like. They don't know how to deal with it properly. So the idea is just to, like, you know, you two can't see each other anymore, and we're just not going to talk about, like, what happened here. And then my mom caught me. Well, I had. I had. We had pay per view, and I ordered some movies on pay per view when I was a teenager in high school. And there's a way in which you can order them so you can't see what the movies are. So I thought I was slick. But because they cost more than regular movies, my mom was like, what's this about? So she did some digging and found out and brought it up. And she was like, is there something you want to tell me? And I'm like, I'm in tears. I'm like, no, there's nothing I want to tell you. Like, I don't want to talk about it. She's like, okay, well, you still have to pay for these movies. And I was like, fine, you know, but I don't want to get into it. And then when I was 19, I messaged my mom, and I said, hey, there's something I want to talk to you about. And I knew in her reply that she already knew it was coming, because she goes, okay, Reno. She said, okay, Rena. And I could hear a voice in my head that, like, knowing, okay, Rena. So I call her, and I'm kind of, like, fumbling my words in the beginning. I'm kind of, like, dawdling around what I'm about to say. And she says, you know, she's like, what is it? Just, you know, just tell me what's going on. I was like, I'm. I'm gay. And she's like, yeah, I know. It's like, I thought you knew. I said, how does that sit with you? And she's like, I will Always love you. I've loved you since you were born, since before you were born and since you were three. I've been waiting for this moment, you know. She said, like, I could not wait to go to the gay bars with you and like, you know, have these conversations with you. And I said, you know, wow, thank you, thank you for receiving this so well. I said, what about my siblings and my dad? And she's like, well, they know. She said, but you can still tell them yourself. And I said, how do you think they're going to take it? And she said, I'm pretty sure they're good, you know, like, you know them, they love you. So I told them and they, they took it well. They all were just like, yeah, we know, dude. Like, this is no surprise to us and we love you still. And my, my dad was the one who surprised me the most because I definitely thought he, he would not receive it as well as he did. Mainly because he is you, you know, this very masculine man. He was raised, he was raised in a time where they believed in spanking. And you know, his, both his parents were very stoic. His dad was very sort of wounded masculine, if you will. Right. And his mom, probably more wounded feminine. But even, even as I recall her, she was, she was more masculine as well. And so we felt that when he was around, you know, we felt that when my dad was around and he's come such a long way. So when I told him though, he just said, son, I love you, you know, no matter what. And he actually came out to the gay bar with me at one point and that was shocking. He said, what, you think I haven't been to a place like this before? I said, well, I don't know, like, I thought you were like homophobic or something. He's like, no, like I've been here, you know, of course I'm cool. We had a drink together and it was all good. So that was the gist of it. And I guess the last thing I'll say, I've gone on a bit here, but I had to come out again because I met my biological father just two and a half years ago. And so that was an interesting experience to be this like, you know, 30 something year old man who has already come out to his family and then has to come out to his family again. But it was pretty short and sweet. I was just like, hey, you know, this is weird that I'm doing this again. I already did this, but I'm just gonna let you know, like, I'm a dude who loves dudes. I get down with dudes. And he was like, cool. Works for me. So. Yeah. Yeah. [00:20:06] Speaker A: Well, that's awesome. So we're all kind of the same age, right? So Matt, you said 18. Reno, you said 19. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah. So for me, I was 19. Actually, that might not be true. I was 19 when I came out for the first time, but that was to my ex girlfriend. I think the first family member I came out to was my mom. For. See, so long ago. I don't even remember. But it was the year after. Okay. I think it was about 20. Okay. So around there. So. Yeah. How did I come out to my family? What I wanted to talk about for this one is the first one, which was my mom, which was such a big deal for me because I'm very close with my mom. And that was probably the one I was most afraid of. That and my dad, which I think is fairly common. But for me, I remember thinking, I don't want to have to say it out loud because I don't even think I wanted to say it out loud to myself, let alone to my mother. So I remember what I did was I was just in a very bad mood all the time. I was miserable to be around. It was the year after I had gone away to university for that first year. So I was back at home in the summer after spending a. A year in first year. And that was my first year out. That was the first time I had sex with men. First time I. I did all this stuff. So I had come back home and I was like, ah, this place felt so, like. Like it felt like a prison to me. Back in my childhood room, back in my childhood home with all my childhood friends and everything. And I hated being there. And it showed very, very much. And so I resisted it. I resented, like, what you had said, Matt. I resented the fact that I even had to do this. I'm like, why do I have to do this? Like, why can't they just know? Why can't they just figure it out? Like, don't they know me? Blah, blah, blah. Just miserable to be around, no doubt. So I wanted them to find out and save me the discomfort of speaking the truth. So what it is, like, I think this is subconscious. I'm looking at it now. It was not a conscious choice, but I was just so miserable that I made my whole family crazy. And eventually my mom, after one of our many fights that summer, comes into my room and she's like, what is going on with you? What is happening. This is not who you are. You're very different. Like, ever since you came back, you've been so strange and weird and this isn't who you are. And eventually she just asked me, so I got my wish. I didn't actually have to say the words. And I said, yeah, or I don't even think I said yeah. I think I just stayed quiet. She's like, are you drugs? I was like, no, no. I just kept saying, no, no, no. And then she said, are you gay? And I just silent. So I don't even think my technically came out in that instance. And she knew. And so it felt like a relief. Although I really wish going back to that version. Like, I, I have compassion for that version of me who was very scared and didn't want to say it. But I mean, I've come such a long way. That was 20 years ago. I've come such a long way. I mean, now look at me, I'm on a podcast talking to thousands of people about everything I do. Anywho, so that was the first with my mom. And then I don't really remember my siblings, oddly enough. Like, I, I guess I told them at some point. I don't really remember. But the other one was my dad. And so for me, coming out was a process. I didn't, I didn't tell them all in like one time. It was like, you know, this year this person and another year this person. And because my parents are divorced and my dad, I, I, he spends a lot of time in Mexico in the winter. So I only saw him really during the summers. He was the last one I told. And I was really scared with my dad especially, so I told him last out of my immediate family. And I know why I told him last. And this is a really interesting story, but I remember when we were in, we did a family vacation to Cape Cod when I was 10. And I didn't know I was gay when I was 10. No idea. But I distinctly remember taking a day trip to Provincetown. And this was in the summer. And Provincetown is a very gay friendly hotspot, right? And I remember driving through the city and all these gay people just doing their thing, going to the beach. And this is 1993, right? So this is the early 90s. And I remember, for whatever reason, I don't know why I remember this, I don't remember anything from that age, but for whatever reason, I remember my dad saying something like, ugh, this is disgusting. Michael, never be like these people, something like that. Now guys, I wasn't. I didn't know that I was like those people in that moment. I didn't know. But for whatever reason, that memory stuck with me. So there's something going on there. But anyway, I think that's the reason why I was the most scared, because that memory had an imprint on me. So that's why I was the most afraid. At any rate. So fast forward now. I'm at this point maybe 22, 23, 24, early 20s. And eventually my whole family knows. My. My mom, my stepdad, my siblings, my stepmom even knew. And eventually I'm like, oh, yeah, I have to tell him. So I did. And he took it extremely well. He said all the right things. Like, all the right things. And I don't think anyone gave him a heads up. I really don't. I think that they did. They did honor my confidentiality. But I'll say this. When he said, oh, who. Who else knows? Did you tell? So and so I'm like, yeah. Oh, did you tell your sister? Yeah. Did you tell. My stomach? Yeah. The look of disappointment on that man's face will never leave me. That made my heart sink. And he just stayed silent for a while and he said, why didn't you feel like you could talk to me? And that broke my heart. But going back to the story I told you earlier, that was the reason. And I think he made that comment. He probably doesn't even remember making that comment, like, at all. But that was the reason, and that stuck with me. So I guess my only regret with coming out to my family is that with my dad, I wish I had done it sooner, especially seeing the pain that it cost him, that he was the last to know. [00:26:05] Speaker B: Did you tell him why? [00:26:07] Speaker A: No, I didn't tell him about that. That I don't think he would remember. And honestly, like I said, I don't even know why I remember, but it obviously stuck with me. No, when he asked, I just. I don't know what I said. I think I just said I was scared. I was scared that he wasn't gonna love me. And he just was like, how could I not love you? You're my son. Like, you're just. He was like, what are you talking about? So, yeah, like I said, he said all the right things. So those were. Those were the two big ones for me, mom and dad, and they were years apart. Yeah. I wanna make a little comment here about, like, even the fact that we're talking about this is a great example of minority stress. You know, the fact that we even have to deal with this. And for some of us, it's at a young age. Like, this is not something that heterosexual people need to deal with. And if you're coming out at a young age, it is one of those stressors, one of many stressors that we have as queer people that others don't have to deal with. So I remember hiding so. So much of myself in that, like, university period, when I was in university, and I loved being away. I'm so happy I went away to university because I. I got to, like, just escape from my family. And it was those years that I resented being them, being with them, and very different from who I am now. But it's because I didn't want to have to come up to them, and I'm like, I want. So I just threw the whole thing out. I'm like, I don't want to be around you people because it forces me to have to deal with the truth, not. Not of who I am, but having to say it out loud. And I hated that. So I remember that I resented them so much, but one day it dawned on me that they never forced me to not say anything. It was my choice to stay quiet and to hide who I am and to put on the show. And so that was very empowering for me to realize, hey, wait a minute, they are not putting me in this position. It's me. I'm the one who's choosing this. And it was a hard realization, but it was a very empowering one. So, you know, I think that's why I do the work I do now. And I'm so shameless and vocal about it, because I spent so much time the opposite, hiding myself and realizing that, wait, I'm the one doing it. Like, why am I doing this? Right? So, yeah, just want to. Want to give a little shout out to everyone out there who is struggling with this and realize that this is a really shitty situation that we are in because we just live in a. In a hetero world that is oftentimes homophobic. Yeah. [00:28:26] Speaker B: Can I piggyback on that for a moment? [00:28:28] Speaker A: Please do. [00:28:29] Speaker B: I. I think. I think to. To add to that, you know, for. And I'm not sure who's listening right now, but, you know, to the people who identify as, like, allies or to the people who are family members of people who fall under the, you know, the. The LGBTQIA umbrella. Right. I think it's important for. For them to be aware of what it. What it's like to be us. And. And I Think that works both ways, actually. You know, I think an understanding in both directions of what it's like to navigate this is really important because if. If you're not aware of what it's like to be us, you know, and we're not aware of what it's like to be you, then there are situations where, say someone makes a flippant comment, right, Unconsciously, unknowingly, and, and that ends up creating a. A long term impact, you know, and you may not have even meant anything by it. It may have just been off the cuff, but it really does matter. You know, our. Our actions and the space that we hold and create for one another really does matter and really is. Is. Is really important and detrimental as well, you know, So I think it's just important to be aware of that. Yeah. [00:30:09] Speaker A: Thank you, Reno. You know what, guys? I have a feeling that there's going to be a lot of people listening to this episode that perhaps are not our usual listeners. Maybe just because of the title, maybe you are a family member of someone, somebody who is gay and you saw this and thought, oh, this is interesting. So I want to welcome you because I have a feeling there will be some of those peeps out there. [00:30:29] Speaker B: I hope so. Yeah. [00:30:30] Speaker A: Yeah, me too. Yeah, absolutely. I hope this, this can help shed some light. Yeah. All right, guys, let's go to our next question. So how open are you with your family about your sexuality and love life? Matt? [00:30:48] Speaker C: I want to just honor both of you guys because, you know, I'm really working with my inner child right now. And that was the theme of the month prior. And, you know, when you guys were both sharing, I felt you, I felt your little inner children. And just, you know, I remember I was 5 years old when I had the first realization that I was gay. And I carried that for 13 years until I was 18. [00:31:11] Speaker A: Right. [00:31:11] Speaker C: And just thinking about all the cortisol and adrenaline that's running through our bodies constantly in fear of being exposed and how that changes us in such a dramatic way. And, you know, I think it leads to, you know, why you see a high incidence of anxiety disorders in our community because it is a very anxiety provoking thing, having to hide being gay. So anyway, I just felt both of you guys when you both shared and I was like, oh, you know, because I know what it feels like. And you know, it's the one thing that, that ties us all together as gay men is that we all have this experience. Whether they're. We're out or not. We all have the experience of feeling, like, scared about something that is a pretty big deal about who we are. So I just wanted to. To say that. Yeah. So how open am I with my family about my sexuality or love life? You know, this is an interesting area because I share a lot on this podcast and from some people's perspective, I overshare on this podcast, which I'm ok and. But this is one area that I don't share a lot. I like to keep my love life and my. My sex life quite private. So I don't really share with really my friends or my family. I. My best friend, I share pretty much every single thing with. Her name is Jackie and she's. She's my soul mate and she knows everything about me. So if I ever died and you need to know anything about me, that's who you go to. And I just had deja vu. That was so weird. It's like I said that before. Very strange. And my therapist, those are kind of the two people that I. That I share everything with. I don't know why. For me, I think it's just a private thing. I don't know if it. If there is a shadow side to it where it's like, you know, I don't feel comfortable sharing, but I don't. I don't think so, actually, but think it's more so. Just that it feels very private for me, like my love life. And I. I think I also have a bit of a belief too, that it's like, you know, if I'm. Let's say I have a partner and I'm in conflict with them and I go running off and telling people about this conflict. I think what we share with our friends and family can jade people's opinions of our partner and I. So I'm always really mindful of that. Like, I want to. So I have a few people that I can go to and they can be my support. But so there's that element of it. And then I don't feel comfortable talking about sex with my family at all. Like, it's just not something that I would ever talk about or love life. Like, if I'm dating somebody, I will always, you know, tell my. My family, actually probably more so my mom. My mom and my sister, I think, are the two people that I would tell first. [00:34:10] Speaker B: And. [00:34:13] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:34:15] Speaker C: Trying to think, feel into if there's anything else that's kind of surrounding this because I do love talking about sex with people and I love talking about relationships and love. And because this is like a really, really juicy Area. I just love talking about it. Like when my clients are like, well, today I want to talk about sex and relationships. I'm like, yes, I love this. This is so good. So maybe I need to feel into this a bit more. But yeah, you know what it is actually it just intuited it hit me is it's sacred for me, it's very sacred. And I think that I want to share things that are sacred with people that I guess maybe I have full trust with and that I feel have earned me sharing that sacred part of who I am. Yeah, that feels accurate. [00:35:07] Speaker A: So I get the impression from you it's more about that than like, I don't know, shame or something else that makes more sense. [00:35:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:35:15] Speaker C: There isn't a lot that I have shame around in my life. There is little. I get shame pangs, like a vulnerability hangover. Maybe there's a little bit of shame hanging around in there, but it's, it's not, it's not big anymore in my life. Shame isn't a big theme in my life per se. So yeah, I think you're right, Michael. [00:35:32] Speaker B: Yeah, that's because you're a bad. [00:35:35] Speaker C: I'm a bad, yeah. Well, I've worked on my shame, but my trauma is what I'm working on now. And it's two the two headed monster. Shame and trauma. [00:35:46] Speaker A: Narino, we know that your dad went to Gabriel with you. So I think that that helps us give us a bit of a glimpse in terms of saying. [00:35:53] Speaker B: Right, yeah, you know, it's interesting. Like I'm just a fun loving, cheeky, playful and really sincere guy. And so there's very little that is left. What is it off the table for me it's just like I lay it out there with, with respect. Respect though, you know, so if there are things that sincerely like my family members don't want to hear, I won't tell them. But I'm not, I'm not shy to the point where like we're having Thanksgiving dinner or Christmas dinner or something like that and I'm, you know, maybe talking about one of my recent lovers and are like sometimes even our encounters. Right. I won't go into detail and actually sometimes I will just for shock value. Like, I love when my brothers are like, ew, Reno, that's so gross. Like, stop it. I just like it. I love it. It makes me so happy because here's the thing, so I'm going to say this. I feel like for my life, my entire life I have moved through and existed in predominantly heteronormative spaces, right? Like, let's just say, like, the world at large, in essence, is a predominantly heteronormative. So me being me with love and playfulness and a bit of an edge, like, I'm gonna. I'm gonna nudge against that. I'm gonna push against that, you know, and this is how I do that. It's like, I watch y' all cuddle, kiss, snuggle, talk about your stuff. Walker room talk, you know, water cooler talk, blah, blah, blah. I get to as well. Well, I'm not. You know, I'm not excluded from this just because I'm gay. Forget it, right? So I just made myself really comfortable talking about all this stuff. And honestly, after I came out, I was like, oh, oh, you know, I. I. This, like, image of, you know, the genie in the lamp, and when he, like, finally comes out and he's like, oh, my God, I can breathe. I'm free. You know, it was like that, and. And then I just let her rip. And honestly, I think my family really appreciates me for it. I know sometimes they're like, ew, tmi. But generally speaking, I think it. It inspires a culture, an environment of openness and transparency. You know, they know they can come to me, and they know that they can share their weird and their. You know, the stuff that, like, feels a bit edgy to them, too. So I am not shy. And the last thing I'll say. There's one more, which is I came out to my brother. This all happened in the same day, the same night. I came out to my brother. Him. Me. Him and my best friend Colleen went to the gay bar together with this guy Matt, who I had met online years ago. Told him my name was Jordan. That night, I told him. I finally told him my name was Reno. We went out dancing that night, Went back to his apartment across the street. I slept in his bed that night while my brother and my best friend slept. Slept on the couch in the other room. And I'm pretty sure. No, no, no. I'm not pretty sure. They heard us hooking up in the other room. So that all happened in one night. It was just like. And I'm gay. My brother had a laugh about it, bless his heart. Like, he was. So. He was so sort of cheeky and playful about it, and I loved it. [00:39:46] Speaker A: So, yeah, that's awesome. That's a high level of access, in my opinion. Yeah, that's awesome, though. I mean. I mean, what you said inspired a. Mean, I resonate a lot with what you said about the genie in the bottle. And I think going back to my previous share, having been having hid myself for so long, I think that like, it's like an arrow pulling back with all that tension, then all of a sudden you burst forward. So yeah, I, I, I get that and resonates a lot. Okay, so what, how open am I with my, with my family? Well, like we talked about, here we are in a podcast, which I know that they listen to and in fact, they probably are listening to this episode. Right? Um, yeah. Besides the podcast, I'm also very open about my sexuality and relationships on my Instagram. And I know my, my mom and my aunt and maybe my sister and brother in law subscribe to my, my willismo newsletter. So they, and I'm very open in that, probably more so because there's no filters. So they do know a lot that I put out publicly. So it's not like I'm sharing it with them specifically. They just, they just know what I, my, what I, what I say here, that they can get that. In fact, I've had my partner on the podcast twice and they've listened to both of those episodes. One of those episodes we had talked a little bit about our openness. So they know that. Which was a fun conversation. Yeah, there was some family members who just didn't get it. Like, why would you do that? So, you know, that's fine. I'm happy to have those conversations with them. But yeah, so they do know a lot about that. I will say that I'm very, very fortunate that my family's been very open to all my partners. I've had five long term relationships and I bring these guys into my family because family is very important to me. So historically, no matter who it is, they've all been very warm and welcoming with my current partner, same. So that's really nice. And he's very much part of the family. I think it was last year, two years ago, my youngest nephew. It was like we were in the, in the kitchen and I heard him, I overheard him say uncle Star. He called him Uncle Star. And I was like, oh my God. I don't, I don't know where he picked that up. I don't know if my sister and brother in law said something, but like, it was just so beautiful and made my heart glow. So I will say with my family now, the only times I think twice about it is with pda. I'm a very naturally affectionate person. I touch, I like to touch. And so sometimes I realize, oh, Wait a minute. This is maybe what we do at home is what we do at home, but what we do, let's say at family dinner, it's maybe a little more than what other people do. So I do find myself catching, like, okay, maybe that's not the right place to put my hand, or maybe that's too much or like cuddling and whatnot. So, yeah, I do find myself trying to limit what I do there and that respect. Okay, so that's. With my partner, I want to also talk about like my friend life and my day life in general, not just, not just my partner. So with my chosen family, my friends, my. My parents know all of them. They are again, very much part of the family. They know who everyone is. They know my life, they know my life and they're very respectful of it. They get that these bonds are very important to me. And I think they have come to realize and be very thankful that I've been for the fact that I have my chosen family. Because I think they just know that, oh, you know, Michael needs the support and he needs these people in his life who can get him in maybe the ways that they can't. So they know that my, my chosen family are like siblings basically, and they respect that, which is really nice. And then when it comes to my city life, my gay life here, I live downtown Toronto, right in the middle of the village. I will say my parents have not come with me to like the gay bar in your sense, Reno, but. But they have come to Pride. Once. My mom and my aunt came down to Pride one year, which was really nice and really great. And even just a couple weeks ago, my, my mom and my aunt came down to, to visit and we went to Woody's, which is a gay bar, but it was like on a weeknight and we were only there. They were only there until like nine or ten. And then once like all the hotties started coming in, I was like, okay, I know it's can't. We gotta just choose one. I can't focus on my mom. And then also like, look at all these hot guys walking in around. So yeah, but it was still really nice. [00:44:21] Speaker B: Did you choose the hotties or did you choose your valet? [00:44:24] Speaker A: Well, they had to go home, so, yeah, I walked them back to the car. [00:44:29] Speaker B: Yes, it was getting late. [00:44:34] Speaker A: So yeah, I'm very lucky that. But even being in that space, I felt it just was a mind trip and I loved it. And my friends were there too. So it was like me and my friends at the bar and like My mom and my aunt, which I. I will probably remember that for the rest of my life. It's a very special moment. So, yeah, they've come to pride. They get all that. I will say their experience of pride really warmed my heart as well, because they had such great feedback. They loved being in that environment. They're like, wow, there's so much love. And like, everyone knows each other and, you know, you're a family. Like, this is really a family, a beautiful village. Like, literally a village where everyone knows each other and loves each other. And all these people are coming up to me and like, they're like, this is my mom. They gave for a big hug and it was just so, so full of love. And so I think that also helped them realize because don't forget, right? For if your parents are in a very different, hetero, suburban world, they might get scared for a child who's like, how are they going to live their life? What are they going to do? Who's in love with them? What life? What's life going to be like? So for them to actually come into it and see, oh, wow, there's a lot of love, there's a lot of support here. I think it gives them a lot of comfort knowing that their son is. Is in that. So now what they don't have access to is similar to what Matt had said, is we're not a family that really shares a lot about sex, so that's kind of off the table. So they don't know that. I mean, I don't. I can't imagine my parents seeing something like Grindr or like those. Those types of gay things like bath houses. And I'm not sure they know about that, and I'm not going to be the one to talk about it. But yeah, that level is like the. No, no, that's the room we don't go into. But that's just our family dynamic. That's just how we are. Not because. Not because we're ashamed of it or anything, or not because I'm ashamed of it rather, but more so just because we're not. We're not that kind of family. Yeah. So, yeah, that's. That's. [00:46:18] Speaker C: I love it. [00:46:18] Speaker A: The Access piece, which I'm excited if they are listening to this. Yeah, I'm excited to. To hear what they have to say. And the other face that I talked about two weeks ago was my niece finding my TikTok. I think I talked about that and she saw all the stuff that I'm posting on TikTok. And I'm like, you know what? If we have to have a conversation about it, I'm happy to be that guy. I'd rather you hear it from me than from somebody else. That's just my stance on that. [00:46:43] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:46:44] Speaker A: All right, guys, as we. As we finish up here, what are some tips you would offer someone who is considering coming out to their family? Matt? [00:46:53] Speaker C: Yeah, this is. It's a big deal. So I would say just really honor, like you said off the top, Michael, like, honor that it feels right and that you're not being forced to do it and that you're listening to your nervous system, because it can be depending on, you know, your family. And if you come from a really religious family. I know a lot of. I've heard horror stories over. Over my years of people being outcasted from their family for coming out and outcasted from their church and all these things. So it can be really. It can be traumatic for somebody that's. That's already traumatized. So I would say be mindful. Make sure that it feels like the right thing to do. Have support when you do it. So whether that's a. A coach or counselor or friend or somebody that you. You can let them know that you're going to be coming out to your family so that if it does go sideways, that you can fall back on that connection and that they can be there to kind of hold you in that. In that tender moment, you know? And then there's this other, more fierce side of me that's kind of like them, if they don't accept you, you know, like, there's 8 billion people on this planet, meaning there's 8 billion opinions, potential opinions of us. And why we get hung up on a few is. Is, you know, beyond me. So there's a part of me that's like, don't wait for approval from anybody, like, because you might not get it. And don't bring expectations into anything that you. Or when you're coming out or. Or whatnot, because, you know, just let it be what it is. If people can't accept you, they might find their way to accepting you might take them time and. And to offer people that time, but don't sit there waiting for them. I would say, live your life. Be happy. [00:48:45] Speaker A: Be gay. [00:48:45] Speaker C: And if people have a hard time accepting that, then that's on them. You know what I mean? That would probably be my. My best advice. I'm grateful that I've gotten to a place in my life where I feel like this isn't an issue anymore. And obviously that's, you know, part of being able to support people through this because, you know, you live it and you go through it and you understand how painful it can be. But yeah, it's one of the most empowering things that we can do. And I actually think it is a gift really. Like when it's not a gift, when we're going through it, it feels very much like a burden. But think about like, how many people go through life not being their authentic self and part of us, we're, we're really like, I'm not going to say forced, but we kind of are a little bit like nudged by the universe to like be authentic and come out. And it's a, it takes a huge act of courage to do that. And when we practice courage, we literally become more confident and authentic and all the things. So I do think it becomes a gift and I feel really blessed that I was, you know, able to, to find the courage to do that and just what. How it changed my life in a really big way. So. [00:49:49] Speaker A: Yeah, that's beautiful. Yeah, tell that. I wish you, I wish you could have told that to my 20 year old self. Who really needed to hear that. [00:49:56] Speaker C: Me too. Yeah, exactly. [00:50:00] Speaker A: Reno, what tips do you have? [00:50:03] Speaker B: Well, well, I think first and foremost, you're not obliged to, to come out. You're not obliged to come out. You don't have to. Heterosexual people don't come out. You don't have to come out. You can just live your life and be who you are. But if it, if it, if it occurs to you, if it feels, if it feels aligned for you to come out, you know, if that's something that you feel would enhance your experience of life and being in this world and it feels necessary, then absolutely, you know, but it's. Yeah, it's. You're not obliged to. I think the other thing too is what was really important for me when I was coming out was that I had at least one person in my corner, like knowingly in my corner. And let me say this, like, I didn't, I didn't know that my parents would or wouldn't be in my corner. Right. And, and luckily it turned out that they were. And I certainly had reason to believe that, you know, that. My dad, for example, bless his heart, I love him and forgive him absolutely. He, you know, his, some of his actions would lead me to believe that he wasn't going to be that person for me. Right. So I, my best friend was that person. I told her. And what ended up happening is there was this sense that if she was the. [00:51:48] Speaker C: Your audio, your audio just cut out. [00:51:51] Speaker B: Is it back now? [00:51:51] Speaker A: Yeah, you're good. [00:51:52] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:51:53] Speaker B: If she was the only person in my life who accepted me for who I was, that would be enough. Right. So I think just having a safe space, you know, cultivating a sort of sanctuary, a safe space for yourself where you're supported is probably really important as you're gearing up to come out and you. That may occur to you instinctually and intuitively, you know, but if it doesn't, certainly, you know, put that into place. And then the other two things I would say are, you know, prioritize and validate your own experience. Right. While honoring and giving space to theirs as well. So it's like on the one hand, everything you are experiencing and everything that is important to you is valid and is a priority. Right? And so cherish that and honor that and give that the tender, loving care that it deserves and that you would want from someone else. And simultaneously recognize that when you come out to your family, they are entitled to their own experience. And what we get to do is honor that and validate that and let that be there. But we don't have to take it on. We don't have to take it on. Theirs is theirs. Ours is ours. And the last thing I would say is, you know, have high standards but low expectations. Right? Have high standards, but low expectations. Yeah, like you. Because I am here. I am enough. I am worthy of being here. Point blank period. Because I exist. I don't need to prove it. I don't need to. There's nothing to prove. I don't have anything to prove to anyone. And you know, and I require that I be cherished, that I be respected, that I be honored, because I exist. And I will extend the same to you. And beyond that, I have no expectations. You know, it's just. It's agreements, right? It's agreements. But if I come in with high expectations about, you know, what's going to happen and how people should be and how people should respond, etc. Etc. I'm setting myself up for deep disappointment in some cases. And in many cases, you know, so have high standards, but low expectations. [00:54:21] Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. Guys, you got like so many great tips. Those are some really good, really good ones there. Yeah, all of that. I don't know what else I would add, actually. I just did a. For National Coming Out Day, I just did a post about up some tips for coming out and yeah, you guys nailed all of them. I think. I don't know what else I would add. I. I would say one of the questions I get a lot is, you know, people think that they have to do it in person, and you don't have to. There's. There's no right or wrong way to do it. You know, ask yourself what would be the best, you know, environment for you will make you the most comfortable. If it's not in person, that's okay. It doesn't have to be. Another thing that I would say from my own perspective is something that I didn't do that I wish I had is I wish I had prepared what I wanted to say and how I was going to say it, because with the example I gave with. With my mom, I just kind of, like, made my household miserable until she asked me. I wouldn't do that again. So, you know, think about exactly what you want to say. Maybe even write it in a letter just for yourself. Not like. Not like you have to give the person this letter. Just write it out. And sometimes that tends to help. You guys know that I love writing and journaling. I believe in that as a very therapeutic method to get things out. So sometimes that helps. And I'd even go so far as saying, say it out loud to yourself. Because sometimes just saying the words, I'm gay, I'm bi, I'm queer, whatever it is, saying it to yourself in a mirror helps you get over the jitter. So the first time you're saying it aloud is not in front of a family member. So I didn't do that. The first time I think I said it to a family member was when I said it to my mom. Or actually, again, I didn't say it. So, yeah, I think just preparing yourself. Another thing I like to do is write out just like, my. My main points. Like, what is the main three things I want to say? I'm gay, please love me. You know, whatever that might be. Yeah, I think other than that, you guys covered all of it. And I love what Reno said about having your support network ready. [00:56:25] Speaker B: Yeah, big time. And, you know, I. I'm gonna say. I'm gonna say one more thing, too. And I. I'm saying this with a lot of passion. I think that before we come into this world, our parents have these expectations. You know, they have these images and these visions of who we're going to be and what needs of theirs are going to be met through us, their children. You know, oh, they're going to give me grandbabies, and it's going to look like this, and it's going to look like that. And they have this whole made up, imaginary idea of what things are going to look like. And then Reno comes out and says, you know, I'm gay. And in an, in a flash, all their dreams are dashed. Right. If they had them, all their expectations, that is. That is a remarkably difficult experience to navigate. If you've ever had your dreams or your expectations quashed, you know, it's like, that can be really hard to deal with. Someone once said, you didn't suffer from a broken heart, you suffered from broken expectations. And I love that saying. And so, you know, for the parents, it's like, better do away with those sooner than later, you know, I guess have dreams, but hold them lightly because we're not here to live up to your expectations. You know, we are here to be our own creatures and to grow. And ideally you would support us in that process. And I suppose some people don't have the capacity to do that for their children, you know, and, and that's understandable. And I think that's where having, you know, and I think we talk about this in our next episode. But having. What do you call it, Michael? What's the family? [00:58:29] Speaker A: Chosen family. [00:58:30] Speaker B: Chosen family. That's where having chosen family. [00:58:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:58:33] Speaker B: Can be really, really valuable. But just remember, you know, parents, your kids don't owe you anything other than, you know, love and respect and, you know, and, and to those of you coming out, like, your parents owe you the same. And anything beyond that, you get to co create. Yeah. Yeah. [00:58:54] Speaker A: Well said. Thank you for that reminder. Parents don't get a guide, by the way, with your little baby son, he's gay. And here's a guide on how to raise a little gay boy or a girl, whatever. They don't get that, so they're figuring out. Figuring it out along the way as well. Now, it wasn't until many later, many years later, my mom told me that she actually sought help for having to deal with me coming out. And I'm like, oh, why would you, like, why would you need help? I'm the one who had to suffer. And then I'm like, oh, wait a minute, that's not necessarily true. So thank you, Reno, for, for that reminder. It's a very good point. [00:59:27] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That is powerful. It hit me. Yeah. A lot of parents aren't conscious either. Like, they come into this life and evolutionary psychology tells them that, you know, this baby is an extension of you and they are going to become you and they're going to fulfill all the things that you didn't fulfill in your life. They're going to be a superstar football player or this or that, and they just, it's all projecting. So the more conscious parents can become in letting their children be, give them a blank canvas and let them become who they, who they want. It's, it'll lead to a lot less disappointment. And then I also want to speak to the people that are on the front end of parents being disappointed in them. That's so painful. And that hits all the shame wounds. When you tell a parent you're gay and you look in their face and you see that their, their dreams have been dashed. Like, huh. That's just gut wrenching. You know what I mean? Knowing that who you are innately as a human being is disappointing to somebody else. It's, it can hit some deep stuff. So it's a very tender area. Hopefully the listener, viewer is really realizing that this, you know, just how tender and fragile this process can be. [01:00:37] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And I'm gonna actually link in some resources in the show notes, actually. So this is for both. I have some for both for parents and for this. I think it's aimed for children, but either way, you can use them for anyone who's, who's struggling and who wants some, some guides on that. All right, guys, anything you want to add before we wrap this up? [01:00:56] Speaker B: I love you all. Yeah. Just loving you, holding you, like, yeah, we get to be here. We get to do this. You are so loved. And that's what communities like this are for. Yeah. [01:01:10] Speaker A: Yeah. Amen. Yeah. [01:01:12] Speaker C: And the three of us are qualified to support people in their coming out process. So if you're needing support, don't hesitate to reach out. [01:01:18] Speaker A: Absolutely. Okay. To our viewers and listeners, thank you for sticking through another episode with us. This was a, a deep one and definitely necessary one. I'm happy we, we got to talk about it. If you like what you heard here today, please give us a five star rating on whatever podcast platform you're listening to us on. If you're watching us on YouTube, don't forget to subscribe where you'll get notified of when new episodes premiere every Thursday and leave us a comment as well in YouTube. Tell us about your own coming out to family, your own tips you have for people who might stumble upon this video, our allies, maybe parents and queer folks alike. And don't forget to join us in the Gaiman's Brotherhood Zoom hangout on the last Thursday of the month. And otherwise, we'll see you next week for another episode. Have a good one. Bye. [01:02:06] Speaker B: Bye.