[00:00:04] Speaker A: Welcome to gay Men going deeper, a podcast series by the gay men's Brotherhood where we talk about personal development, mental health and sexuality. We are your hosts. Michael DiIorio is a life and wellness coach specializing in sexuality, relationships and self confidence.
Reno Johnston is a spiritual life, love and business coach.
And I'm Matt Landsiedel, a counselor and facilitator specializing in healing and empowerment.
We each have our own private practice and in this podcast we're sharing all of our best stuff.
Today we're talking about the fear of rejection. This is a big one. It's a doozy. We're going to be exploring questions like what comes to mind when you think about rejection?
Do you have a story that you'd like to tell us?
Why is rejection so painful? And how do you cope with this pain?
And how have you reframed rejection to make it more palatable?
So the theme of the month in the gay men's brotherhood is facing your fears. So we're going to have a whole month of being able to talk about how to face fear and step more towards into courage. So and on that note, we'll be continuing these discussions on the last Thursday of every month in the gay Men's Brotherhood Zoom hangout or sharing circle where you have a chance to share your own experiences.
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Okay, so rejection.
I thought of this topic because it's very prevalent in my life. It has been for a long time. I'm a recovering people pleaser.
I see this a lot in my practice and I just see it all everywhere in our community. So I wanted to bring it into the light so we can talk about it and normalize it. And yeah, it's a big one. So rejection, it is a part of life. It's part of the human condition. It is something that can cause us great suffering.
Like any suffering, there is always wisdom in it, and there's always an opportunity in it. And I think with rejection, there's an opportunity to practice self love, self acceptance. So whenever we are rejected, we get an opportunity. We hit a fork in the road. We can go in towards self hatred or self animosity, or we can choose to use that as motivation to love ourselves deeper and harder. Right?
And then I was thinking about, you know, just within my life, my practice, and how I see this in the community. And I kind of came up with the typical gay man's journey. Okay. I recognize that this isn't going to resonate for everybody. This is just what I see. It's a common theme and a common pattern that I see in our community, and I wanted to just bring light to it.
So I'm a firm believer that we're all born whole and complete. We come into this life, we're whole and complete.
We're not worried about rejection. We're young, and we're just doing our thing. As we get older, we start to have feelings towards other boys.
And we might feel like we're different, that there's something different about us.
All around us, there's this conditioning, this heteronormative conditioning around a man and a woman love each other, and it's not okay to love or like other boys. So we might get that message. We might just feel like there's something wrong with us, which leads to shame, right? We start to have shame around there's something wrong with me. Why am I like this? Why do I like boys when everyone else around me seems to like girls?
We might fear being outcasted because of this from our peer groups or our families.
We learn to hide who we are because of this. And because of this fear of rejection, we learn that we have to hide who we are because who we are isn't acceptable.
The fear of rejection may become a primary fear that motivates many of us and our life choices.
And then as part of an adaptation to that, we might adapt to learn to avoid rejection at all cost, because this will bring up shame.
And I think, and this is where I likely see people coming into my practice and working with me, is we have a choice when we get to this point, we have a choice where it's like I can continue hiding and not living life to the fullest, or I can go start on an authenticity path and start self accepting and owning who I am and loving who I am. And that is how we face the fear of rejection as we start to live with courage and bravery. So I want this podcast to be an inspiration that we can move beyond this. We can move beyond the handcuffs or the shackles of this fear, because it can be really crippling and paralyzing for a lot of us.
And I wrote down a few things of how I see this showing up in the gay community. There's probably many more. And again, this is just my perspective of what I see. So the fear of rejection can show up in many ways.
Intimacy avoidance can definitely be one of them.
Discreet profiles on dating apps.
Isolating ourselves because we don't want to put ourselves out there being inauthentic and hiding the more vulnerable or insecure parts of ourselves.
Rejecting others before being rejected. So this mean girl energy, or this catty energy that we see in our community, it's like, I'm going to reject you before you reject me. And then I think one of the bigger ones would be people pleasing.
This is a big one that a lot of people use so they don't have to experience rejection or conflict.
And then it made me think about why rejection can be so painful. And I think what it does is rejection. It hits on other core wounds that we might have. So if we grow up thinking that we have experiences that teach us that maybe we're not good enough, or we're not worthy, or we don't belong, or we're unimportant, or feeling unseen and unheard. Rejection, when it happens, it can be this thing that stimulates that. If we have these core wounds, rejection can be like the salt that's being thrown into these wounds, and it can really exacerbate them and make them a lot more painful.
And because we are social creatures and we're biologically hardwired for connection and attachment, when our, when our need for belonging is being threatened, it can actually throw us into like fight or flight, or it can, it can create this survival response. Because belonging is a survival need, and rejection is the thing that can sever or threaten that need from being met. So rejection can feel as if our survival need is being threatened. And the same thing that happens with that would be shame. Shame is also this thing that tells us that something's wrong with us. If something's wrong with us, then there's a possibility that we might be outcasted from the group, or it might also sever our need from belonging. So important to be mindful of that.
And then lastly, I wrote down here, the pain of rejection comes from the meaning we make of it. So the stories that we tell about rejection are likely going to be filtered through these core wounds that we have. Right. So when somebody rejects us, we might be putting it through the lens of I'm not good enough, I'm not worthy of love or belonging.
[00:08:30] Speaker B: Right.
[00:08:30] Speaker A: So it can exacerbate these things.
Why this is a good thing is because if rejection is painful, because the meaning that we're giving it, it means that there's hope that we can change our relationship to rejection, because it means that we are applying a new meaning to what rejection means to us.
And that's what I want this podcast to also be, is that it's an opportunity for us to maybe reframe what our relationship to rejection is so it doesn't have to be as painful. And then when it's less painful, we can be more inclined to move towards connection and intimacy and being vulnerable, which is one of my greatest wishes for our community. So, okay, first question.
What comes to mind when you think about rejection?
And do you have a story that you'd like to tell about this? And today, I'm going to start with Michael.
[00:09:29] Speaker B: Thank you, Matt. Thank you for the intro. Really, really well done. And I think you had a lot of really important points. It is a huge topic. Agreed. In fact, I don't know if you guys know this. Our very first topic of our very first episode.
[00:09:43] Speaker A: Exactly.
[00:09:44] Speaker B: Yeah. Okay. Um, yeah, so I, I was thinking about this, and it really depends for me on the flavor of rejection. Um, there's, for me, I guess, on the, on the low side is like this. The flavor of, you know, sending someone a message on a dating app and them saying, not interested. Right. That's one thing. Um, then there's, you know, the flavor of rejection, where you go on a few dates with somebody, like in a romantic sense, and, you know, eventually it's just not a match. And they say the same thing, sorry, you know, I've had fun, but this not a match. And then on the other side of it, on the other side of the spectrum, is hearing your partner tell you, I don't want to be in a relationship with you anymore. Right. After years or after a long period of time or going through a divorce, if you're someone who's married, whatever, or that feeling of rejection that happens when you feel like you're getting squeezed out of your friend group, when you start noticing people are hanging out with you that you usually hang out with and they're not inviting you anymore, you just get that feeling of wait a minute. I'm being rejected, right? So there are lots of flavors of it. And the way I think of it is it's kind of like a plant you can't see in my house. But I have a lot of potted plants. And when the plant has been living in there for a long time, the roots are well sunk in to the pot and they're well developed. And when you unroot it, it's painful, it hurts, the roots break, and it's just really difficult. Versus a plant that you just planted yesterday. You can plop it right out of the soil, no problem. So I think it really depends on the type of rejection we're talking about. And everything you said is very accurate. That sense of belonging, the shame, everything like that. But it really, for me at least, depends on what the scenario is.
That being said, I looked at it more so from the lens of romantic kind of rejection, going on dates, that kind of thing. That's the way I took it. To me. So I think, for me, rejection is one of those things that I have become quite good at over the years. It's definitely an area of my life that I knew I needed to address because I was very afraid of projection. All the things that you listed at the beginning, Matt, that typical man's journey, that was me for sure. So it really resonated with me. But these days, I'm the kind of guy who is the chaser. In a romantic sense. I tend to be the one who takes initiative. I'm the one who walk up to you at a bar. I'm the one who'll walk up to you at the gym. I'm the one who walk up to you at a park. The guy who'll say hi to you at the cafe, even walk up to you on the street, and I'll shoot my shot.
By the way, I just want to take a little moment here. I do love when a guy does that to me. When I'm not the one being, when I'm not the chaser. I do love when a guy comes up to me. So if you're listening to this and you're single and you're sexy and you see me walking down the street, please do say hi.
Okay, back to my point. Sorry. Okay, so my point was because I am the one who's. Who's. Who's typically the chaser, the one taking initiative, and the one who shoots my shot. I get rejected a lot because I put myself out there a lot. So I take my shot, and I don't I certainly don't hit them all, and that's for sure. But it's funny because people will say, oh, you know, you're so confident, you must never experience rejection. But my friends, it is the exact opposite. I'm confident because I have learned how to experience rejection and like Matt had said at the beginning, learned what it means for me, learned how to reframe it, learned how to interpret it, and learn how to hold myself through it. Because it is painful. I'm not going to deny that it's not painful. It is. It stings some more than others. But because I'm willing to put myself in harm's way emotionally over and over and over again, I've just become really good at it. And like anything you do, you. The more you do it, the more you get good at it, you know, the less painful it can be. Not all the time, of course. As I said earlier, there's going to be times where it's going to hurt really badly, no matter what. But I've learned how to lick my wounds, give myself self compassion, and I have the tools to process it. And most importantly, I do not use it as a weapon against myself ever.
And that's what creates confidence. So as someone who coaches on confidence, one thing I would say is like, I want you to go out and get rejected a hundred times because you will be so confident after that, because you'll have learned the skills of reassurance, self assurance and so on.
However, I'm going to flip the script here for my a little story.
I have a lot of stories of being rejected, but I mean, it's just, you know, the typical garden variety rejection. But I was thinking about something I would prefer being the one being rejected, not the one doing the rejecting. And I think that that's very interesting. So if someone walks up to me and they're cute and they're nice and everything, but I'm just not feeling it. Or let's say I'm dating somebody and I'm just not feeling it. This happened a few years ago. Actually dated this amazing guy.
It started something casual, and that casual thing became more frequent. And then those turned into sleepovers, which turned into brunch together, which turned into weekends together. And he was gorgeous, incredible, and we had great sexual chemistry. It was wonderful. But I wasn't, at the time, in the space for a relationship. I just didn't want to be in one. I just wanted to be single. So what I noticed in me was I was more afraid of being the one to end it.
Than if he would have ended it. I would have much preferred if he ended it, because I could handle it. I could handle it on my own. So my work is not so much these days, not so much getting rejected, but it's actually being the one to do the rejecting. And this is still true for me today. Um, you know, I struggle more with saying no, thank you than I do with being told no, thank you. Why? It's that people, please. Are in me.
He's alive and well, and I can. Like I said, I can handle rejection for the most part. But it's very uncomfortable for me to say no to somebody or to have to let them down, because I don't want them to think that they're not good enough. And I don't want to be the cause of that. I don't want them to feel unloved. I don't want them to feel unattractive. I don't want to be that guy. So I would. Yeah, I'd rather have them reject me. So that's my. That's my story, is. I think my work these days is kind of learning how to be the other person in that and do so with love because I know how much it hurts, and I know from just my work and my life how painful that can be.
[00:15:58] Speaker A: I want to just say something. Thank you. That was a beautiful, beautiful share. And I want to maybe, well, ask you, but also challenge you. Do you think that it's.
Maybe it's not people pleasing, it's compassion?
[00:16:12] Speaker B: Yeah, could be it's empathy, too, because I know how it would feel when I'm on that. And as I said, I have coached people and been on the other side of that, and I know it's going to go through someone's head. Well, I shouldn't say no, but I'm projecting what's going through my head. Right. What would be going through my head would be, oh, I'm not hot enough. I'm not good enough. All my insecurities would be triggered. All of my. I don't belong, I'm not good enough would be triggered. And I would not want to be the cause of that. Even though I know I'm not the cause of it intellectually, I know that I'm not the cause, but I just wouldn't want to put someone through that kind of pain.
[00:16:45] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I relate, because I'm, like, I'm the same, but I definitely don't people please anymore. And I think for me, it's compassion. Like, I just feel so much compassion for people, because I know the pain of rejection, it can feel really hard. So it's like, yeah, yeah, that's probably.
[00:17:01] Speaker B: Better word for it, actually. Yeah.
[00:17:03] Speaker A: Yeah. Which is a beautiful thing, really. Compassion is beautiful because it's like. It means that you're able to understand that, you know, and be like, yeah, this. That's why I always say when somebody asks me out and I'm not into it, I'll just, like, the first thing I'll say is, like, wow. Like, the courage that must have taken to do that. Like, you know, I'll applaud the courage, for sure, because it's scary, you know, putting yourself out there, so. Yeah.
Yeah, that's awesome. I love that you're so courageous and that you're so ballsy. Like, I'm the opposite. I'm like, I'll let people come to me.
[00:17:34] Speaker B: I'm a great wingman. I am a friend of this week, man. I'll do pretty much anything. Yeah.
[00:17:38] Speaker A: Yeah. That's awesome.
[00:17:41] Speaker B: Reno, how about you?
[00:17:42] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:17:47] Speaker C: Well, there's a few things that came up when you were sharing, and I think one is the.
The piece around compassion and empathy. Like, it's a vulnerable. It's a vulnerable thing to be on both the giving and receiving end of a proposal, a request, an ask, you know, and then also a yes, a no. I don't know. Maybe. Let me think about it. Right?
In this case, we're talking about rejection so explicitly, I would say it might be a no. Right? And I've been on both sides of that equation. The person asking, the heart gets going, the blood gets pumping. Maybe the hands are shaking a bit. Maybe the throat starts to run a bit dry. Um, and you're just like, dang. And. And maybe the mind's racing, too. Um, maybe you've been thinking this through for a while, and you're sort of, like, stepping up to the plate to, like, shoot your shot. Um, whether that's, like, asking for, you know, someone's number or telling someone you like them or just, like, you know, it might be, like, a personal request or something like that, it doesn't necessarily have to apply to dating or. Or sex or relationships, but it could be, like, for a promotion or something like that. But my experience is that on either side of that equation, it's uncomfortable. And I think my experience is that the more willing we are to honor that and get close with that, the more room there is for compassion and empathy in both directions. If I've rejected the experience of. Rejected the experience of asking and what comes with that. If I've rejected the experience of rejection and what comes with that, what Im doing is im, like, im numbing. Im numbing my feelings, and Im cut off from a part of my humanity that will allow me to relate more authentically and again with more compassion and empathy. So I looked up the definition of rejection just for clarification purposes. And what I saw was, it reads, the dismissing or refusing of a proposal, idea, etcetera, or the spurning of a person's affections.
So I think another thing that I want to say about rejection is that it's not necessarily personal, but my experience is that it can be taken personally, right? So, like, I can make someone saying no mean something about me if I want to, but it doesn't necessarily mean anything about me, right? So if someone. If I ask someone, say to go on a date, right, or which I have many times, and I've also been on the receiving end of it, or if I propose sexual activity to someone and they say no, in the past in particular, I've been known to make that mean that I'm not attractive. I'm not enough.
I need to change something about myself. It was my personality. I'm too gay. Wait. No, I'm not gay enough. I'm too masculine. No, wait. I'm not masculine enough.
Maybe if I spend more time in the gym. Maybe if I was, like, more like this or less like this.
And it's been my experience, in my observation, that's just not the case. You know, there's a caveat here. And the caveat is that rejection is information, right? I would say everything is information, including rejection. And so what I get to do in those situations is maybe not take it personally, maybe not make it about me, but maybe just be curious, you know? Like, I don't need to. I don't need to go into a shame spiral. I don't need to make it mean that I'm not enough, that I need to go hit the gym a bit more.
And who knows? Maybe it ends up being that, right? And this is where the caveat comes in, is like, how can I take this rejection and approach it with curiosity?
So, I guess as far as the story goes, I.
I just had a. I just had a brain fart.
It's like I forgot what I was gonna say.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I lost it for a second.
So I'm in the habit, like you, Michael, of asking for what I want. And I would say that, like, sometimes that makes people uncomfortable, like, and not the people I'm asking, but the people who are observing it, because they're just like, oh, I could never. I would never. And it's everything from, like, me speaking to someone who's, like, you know, almost obviously straight, but, like, maybe not like, I don't know until I ask.
But I'll go up to them and I'll talk to them and I'll let them know that I'm attracted to them, down to something as simple as asking for, like, a side of pickles with my order because I'm obsessed with them. And people are like, you can ask for that. I'm like, yeah, of course. Why can't. You can ask for anything you want. You're not always going to get it, but of course you can ask for it. And so I'm just. I would say, like, in many ways, I'm kind of a machine when it comes to asking. Like, I'll just ask almost shamelessly, almost.
And it's become kind of a superpower of mine.
That said, like, it's, it's incredibly uncomfortable. You know, like, in a lot of cases, just the, you know, like, some of the judgments, some of the scrutiny, and then also, like, obviously, the no's that come up. I've received a lot of no's.
I want to say more no's than yeses, but. But I'd say there's like, yeah, probably more no's than yeses, but it's almost, it's almost balanced.
And so, anyway, I'll probably go into this a bit more later. But like you said, the practice of that has, it's probably been one of the things that has changed my life. The most significantly added the most value to my life. Yeah, I'll leave it there for now, but, yeah, Matt, what about you?
[00:25:48] Speaker A: Thanks for sharing, Reno.
Yeah. Okay, so I was, well, I'll first say that, for me, I'm coming into this energy just very, I'm a late bloomer in this energy around really understanding my needs, my authentic needs, and then communicating them. And I notice that for me, that's one of the things, like, denial of needs. So when I have a need, it's, like, very rare for me to, like, put it forward, especially romantically. And then when that gets denied, it can really sting because I'm like, it reinforces a core belief of, you know, people aren't there for me or whatever it might be. So having needs and communicating and making requests around those needs, especially if they're really vulnerable needs, can feel like it can sting. There's that stinging feeling so for me, rejection is like a stinging feeling. It feels, it feels shrinking. Kind of like, I feel like there's this, like, I feel small when I'm rejected. That's kind of the feeling that comes up for me. It does bring up shame for me. And then I notice that my, my shame response usually is like, defensiveness, or I have this protector part inside of me that minimizes, so, minimizes people's importance to me or does these things. And it's like a way that I've tried to protect myself from more. So, like, specifically, like, relational rejection.
So, like, I don't care or nothing bothers me or I don't let people get under my skin. You know, it's very much like my ego chimes in and tries to protect me.
So that's just kind of sitting at the surface. And then I wanted to tell a story because when I come, when I came up with these questions, I was thinking, and I was like, man, like, I have a really painful story of rejection, um, that I wanted to share. And I think it's, uh, it really shaped like, shaped me in a really big way. So around the same time that that story happened at the subway, subway sandwich shop, um, around my acne and the kids saying, daddy, what's all over that guy's face? So that was about maybe 19 something, seven, but, well, maybe 18. And then when I was around 20, um, my acne was still really bad. And it was actually probably worse at this point. I think my acne started at 15 and went till probably like 22, something like that. And I was living in Lethbridge at the time and I was connecting with a guy. And keep in mind, like, around this time, there was no such thing as facetime or anything like that. It's all just phone and text, I believe. So there was no way to see faces or anything like that, so.
But I think I had met this guy at a gay bar in Calgary and we, like, you know, hit it off or whatever. And at that time, I think it was also, like, dark in there and maybe I had a bit of acne, but it wasn't as bad because my acne would, like, flare up and then it would get less and, and so anyways, he ended up, we ended up, we were talking and, like, I was having like, really strong feelings for him and, like, very, very rare. I can count on one hand the amount of times I've had crushes in my life. Like, I don't often crush on people. It takes a lot for me to crush on somebody and he's, I would probably say, one of the biggest crushes I've ever had. And I was very into him, and he was road tripping down to see me in Lethbridge. And I remember he came, and he came with. I think he was with maybe.
I think it was two other buddies or maybe just one other buddy of his.
And he comes into my apartment, and I just remember, like, he saw me. And, like, I remember the feeling inside of him that I could feel like, this is the shitty thing about being an empath, is you can feel these sorts of things, and it makes it ten times worse. But I could feel this feeling of, like, disgusting in him, and he was like, oh. And then immediately he went into this, like. Because keep in mind, all the talking we were having was, like, very sexual and, like, romantic, and we had this. This vibe. And then as soon as he saw me, it was like he. He turned it right into friend energy. And I could feel that.
And it was painful for me. That was painful for me. But I think the most painful thing for me was we.
We went out that night, and again, like, just his distance, I could feel the distance. And it was, like, it was just shitty, right? And then when we.
We were out drinking and partying or whatever, and then we came back to my place. I had a spare bedroom, and he stayed in the spare bedroom with the guy that he brought, and him. And that guy had sex in my spare bedroom.
And I was in my bedroom, and I was, like, literally, like, up all night just feeling this. Ugh. Like, just such a yucky feeling inside my body. And that's why I said it had such an impact on me, because it's like. It's almost like a somatic memory that's been stored in my body around, like, um.
Yeah, like, and that's the feeling I was trying to connect with. I was, like, it was very shrinking, right? And then the next morning, I was just, like, I just wanted to, like, disappear. I'm like. Or I wanted them to get out of my apartment. You know what I mean? I was just. It was just such a yucky feeling. Um, so, yeah, I felt like, um, sharing that because it was, uh.
Yeah, it really did shape, and I think I still carry it with me because I know for me that there's still this energy of, like, um.
Like, worrying about, like, people thinking I'm disgusting or like, something around that. Like, it was just such a. So, yeah, yeah, big energy.
[00:31:40] Speaker C: I really appreciate you for saying that. I think that that's such a vulnerable share and a courageous share and, yeah, I think I'd still be feeling that too. Definitely.
[00:31:55] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's the reason why a lot of people won't put themselves out there anymore. They'll use that as a reason. Well, I'm not doing that again. Right.
[00:32:04] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:32:05] Speaker B: And I think that happens a lot.
[00:32:06] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. There's a bit more to the story. And I was like, do I share it?
And I think I'm going to share it because it's. It's kind of fun and funny and it's obviously the person's anonymous. It doesn't really matter. But, um, so fast forward to.
Geez, that was. Must have been like five or six years ago. He, like, hardcore was pursuing me and, like, wanted to connect, and he ended up, we ended up being in the city at the same time and we ended up having sex. And he, like, developed these really strong feelings and, like, wanted to, like, date me, everything like that. And I was similar to where you were at, Michael. I wasn't in that place. And it also just didn't feel. The vibe didn't feel right. So it's just, it's really interesting how things come full circle, you know what I mean? And, yeah, the crush energy was definitely not the same, obviously, after that experience, but, yeah, I thought that was an interesting.
[00:33:02] Speaker C: Admittedly, there's something really gratifying about that.
I'm not even going to pretend. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:33:13] Speaker A: Okay, moving on to the next question. So why is rejection so painful and how do you cope with this pain, Michael?
[00:33:20] Speaker B: Yeah, I think you just said it. It's personal. We make it. We make it personal. But it is personal. Sometimes. Sometimes it's not, but sometimes it is. Like in that story, Matt, that's a very personal thing.
I think it's personal because it triggers our very real shame and our very real inadequacy and our very real stories of not feeling good enough. So if you were insecure about your acne going back to your story and this guy comes in and, like, reaffirms and validates all those fears, it is personal and it hurts. And not only do you think, like I'm imagining in my brain, like, you kind of think you have this shame or it's kind of there and you don't really want to look at it, but you know it's there, but you don't want to look at it then. So it comes in. It's like, here you go. You're right. Not only. Not only is it your biggest fear, but I'm going to show it to you right in front of your face, and it's this, like, ah, I don't want to see that. So, yeah, it. It is painful because sometimes it is personal. Now, sometimes it's not, but sometimes it is. Um, and so I think either way, regardless, the. The answer and how do you cope with it is compassion, which we've done a few really great episodes on recently. Um, it's having compassion for it. And I'm not just talking about, you know, you and the pain of the rejection, but also having compassion for the fact that you fear rejection. It's okay. You're human. We are wired for connection. We are wired then to, therefore, fear loss of connection.
So I don't think that there's anything wrong with having a fear for being rejected. I think that's okay. And I think that's part of the compassion as well, to just say, of course I don't want to be rejected. There's nothing wrong with me. I don't need to be some superhuman who's like, yeah, give me all the rejection. It stings, it hurts. We make it personal triggers all of our stuff, and there's compassion around that aspect as well. So I don't think it's an. I think it's an unrealistic expectation to say, okay, we need to be cured of our fear of rejection. I think it can be there. But instead, what I would offer is that we have tools and processes, and just, like, self compassion and other ways we can deal with it. But I don't think it really goes away, especially if it's something that is very personal, that is very deep. Um, you know, we talked a lot about being your own BFF, having your own back. When that happens, in that moment, you can choose to. And I tell this to my clients all the time when we deal with rejection and failure, you could use this as a reason to love yourself harder, or you could use it as a weapon against yourself. The choice is yours always. No matter how much pain you're in. Use it as a reason to love yourself harder. Love yourself more. Always choose love in those instances, because using it as a weapon against you is certainly. There's no upside to that. That I can see anyway. Right? Um, and so for people who do want to put themselves out there more, and I'm not just talking about romantically, but in any way, if you have a business, if you have a book you want to write, if you have an art piece you want to put out into the world, if you want to show up on Instagram or YouTube, whatever it is, you will be faced with judgment, rejection, criticism, all the things, even failure, even humiliation, even embarrassment, either way, always use that as an opportunity to love yourself even more deeply than you already do. And that's how I would cope with it. I don't think it's realistic to say, okay, let's just stop fearing rejection. I think you just get good at it. Like, I have been, in some cases, not all the time.
Yeah. That's my answer.
[00:36:51] Speaker A: Thank you, Michael.
[00:36:52] Speaker C: Yeah, thanks, Michael.
Yeah. I think that the biggest thing that comes up, and I love that you touched on this, Michael. And it's that I think, well, there are a couple pieces to this. One is rejection can sometimes touch on, like, tender spots that are already. There were, like, points of pain, points of shame that are already there.
I, unfortunately, have seen and heard people say, I don't date black guys, or, like, you're too.
You're just, like, you're too feminine, you know, or something. Something of that nature. Right. And there's already, like, I'm not. I'm not going to say now, actually, but I think probably more so in the past, there was already quite a bit of insecurity around some of these things. And so, you know, the moment someone, like, points to them or sort of puts their finger on them, it's like, ouch. Okay. You know, and we'll.
I'll probably talk a little bit more about this when we, you know, when we discuss the third question.
But my experience has been that the more I'm willing to grapple with and reconcile with those insecurities, the less afflicted I am when they're touched on, that has made that flavor of rejection less painful.
There's another piece to this, which is.
Which creates pain, and it's expectation.
So if I have a request or a proposal and I have an expectation leading up to the expression and communication of that proposal or idea or request, and it's that it will go in a particular way, and then it doesn't. Well, my gosh, like, who wouldn't be impacted by that, you know? And so one of the things that I'm learning through trial and error, through experience, is to really check in with myself before offering up my ask, my idea, my invitation, my proposal. Um, does this come with an expectation? You know, um, and if so, what do I want to do with that? I can hold it. Right? I can hold on to it. Um, or I can explore what it might feel like to let it go. And that may be, you know, just sort of recognizing it, doing some inner sort of shifting, you know, feeling, processing, letting it go as we do, and. And then offering up that ask for that proposal from that place.
There's.
There's a story. Recently, I met this guy, and I wasn't sure if he was heterosexual or not. And as I mentioned, more often than not, I won't make an assumption. Like, I'll just find out.
And we connected. And I expressed to him that I was attracted to him upon sight. And then the more I got to know him, the more attracted to him I was. You know, his personality just was so beautiful to me and what he was up to in life and the way he moved in the world.
And he revealed to me in that conversation at some point that he was straight.
And I remember feeling disappointment, for sure, especially because in my mind, like, well, I wouldn't say I made up a story, but there was definitely some imagining happening, you know?
And, like, to be explicit, for all intents and purposes, like, I was like, this guy's so fine. He could sit on my face, you know? And that's, like. That's, like, for me.
For me, that's the. Like, that's the barometer. Like, if I'm saying yeah to that, like, I'm really feeling you.
And unfortunately, yeah, it just, like, it wasn't there. It wasn't there. But what was beautiful was how quickly I recovered from it, because in the past, I feel like what would have happened is I would have made it mean something about me, and I would have thought about the many ways that I could change myself to maybe, like, become more desirable to him.
And in this case, I just thought, okay, cool, that's where we're at.
And I would say, I've come a long way because that used to be a lot harder. And there's one more I want to share, which is this guy that I lived with.
I moved into the house, and I was there for maybe, like, what was it? Like, it was maybe my first or second week, and Valentine's day was approaching, and I had a crush on him, and I think I shared this on him. Yeah, I remember this. Yeah. But, like, I just. I went up to him, and I was like, hey, Valentine's Day is coming up. Like, will you be my Valentine? Can we go on a day?
And he was like, yeah, sure.
And he was really curious about, like, why I asked him, and he asked me later, and he got that, like, Valentine's Day was, like, a special day for me, but it was really, really vulnerable to go up to this person and be like, hey, will you be my Valentine? You know, because there's all sorts of childhood stuff around that, too. Like, when you don't get a Valentine or you go up to someone and they sort of. They're like, no. You know, that's definitely played out in the past. Right. So, yeah, exposure, as we mentioned, I think just, like, rather than living in the idea that this is how things work, because it happened that way back then, let's just, like, try it again and see, you know, because it's not the rule, you know, that's not always the way things happen. Um, but sometimes, yes. You know, sometimes, yes. Yeah.
What about you, Matt?
[00:44:33] Speaker B: Can I add something quickly?
[00:44:34] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, please.
[00:44:35] Speaker A: Yeah. Right.
[00:44:35] Speaker B: Now, you stimulated something within me, and it wasn't about the sitting on your face part.
[00:44:39] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:44:40] Speaker B: It was. It wasn't that one, shockingly. Um, so, yeah, I think I had shared.
Use it as a reason to love yourself harder. And I think the how. I think you helped me answer the how. The how is you have this wound, this shame, this inadequacy, this belief that you don't want to face or you don't know is there, but most likely you kind of know is there. You don't want to face it, and then someone shows it to you. And I think that that's the gift. That's the way you can cope with it and help yourself and say, oh, almost like, thank you for showing me this thing that I did not want to see. That was kind of festering in the back of my part, causing. Causing me all this grief. Now that I can see it and it's right in front of me now I can actually do something about it. I can. I can, you know, face it. I can clean it out, whatever. Whatever analogy I want to use. But I think that is the gift there. And I think that's how to cope with the pain, is when you see that shame or that inadequacy or insecurity, then you can work with it. And as much as it sucks to see the monster under the bed, you have to see the monster under the bed in order to make the monster under the bed disappear.
[00:45:41] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:45:42] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:45:43] Speaker A: I like that. You guys are both really highlighting for me the just how important resiliency is in this. And resiliency means, like, I'm going to develop, like, scar tissue, right? Like, that's what I see as resiliency is, like, I've been through some shit, and I got the scars, right? Which is interesting because I have acne scars. These are, like, my resiliency. Like, I've been through some shit with these, and they've really helped me, again, learn to love myself. And it's, uh. So, yeah, so it's. I just. I see that that's so important. Um, the only way through the fire is through the fire. Right. You gotta, like, when you get knocked down, you have to stand up and dust yourself off. That's really how we develop the scar tissue to, uh. And the resiliency to. To, um, rejection. So, yeah, I like it. And you guys are definitely much more, like, put yourself out there than I am. So I'm like. Like, hmm. But for me, I really like being courted. Like, that's such a. It's such an important part of the process for me. Like, I love being courted. I don't know why. It's just so. Such a good feeling. And maybe it is because it's a protector for me. It's like, I know that they like me and I have control. There's probably a piece of that there, too, but it also. There's just something about it. It's such an outdated thing. Like, not a lot of people do that and. Or do it well anymore. And I'm like, I kind of like that. So, um, we need to do an episode about that courting. Yes.
[00:47:04] Speaker B: Yes, absolutely. Someone write that down. Someone remind us. I want to do an episode on that.
[00:47:09] Speaker A: Okay. Yeah, I'll write it down right now so we don't forget.
Um. Okay, so what do I have to say about this question? So why is rejection so painful? How do you cope with this? Well, you know, again, the psychology is, like, it's playing on my core wounds. These damn core wounds keep throwing salt in these core wounds. Um, the top three for me are like, I'm not good enough. It's just. It's always been. It's just been such a big one for me. It's the fuel to my perfectionism, you know? It's. Yeah. So if I could just have a magic wand and race I'm not good enough, it would. I would. Yeah. That would probably save me a lot of suffering. I don't belong, and I am different, and no one understands me. These are, like, three big ones for me, and they keep getting reinforced. It's such an interesting thing. Like, I have this experience. I go on dates, and this just happened to me. Like, whatever. Like, a week ago, I went on a date with a guy, and.
[00:48:05] Speaker C: I.
[00:48:05] Speaker A: Have this story, but there's got to be truth to it because it keeps happening. I have this story that I am intense. I'm an intense energy. And, like, for example, I sit down at the table and the guy immediately crosses his arms and I can feel his energy close. And I'm thinking, okay, like, so then what happens in my psychology is I'm like, okay, I have to tone myself down because this person's feeling insecure around me. So then I go into, like, okay, do I have to dim my light? That was the old me. Okay, new me doesn't dim his light anymore. And I'm just like, bleh. Like, I let myself come out and. Right. And that's just who I am. And I get this reaction from a lot of people. It's like, I'm intense, or I'm too intense for some people. And I talked to my friend about this, and she's like, it's because you're authentic. She's like, authenticity is very confronting for people. Like, they. It makes them see themselves or their insecurities. And so anyway, so that has happened most of my life. And I've created this story or this core wound around, like, I don't belong or I'm different or I'm too intense or these sorts of things. And I've done. I've had to do a lot of work around this, so.
And after this date, it was interesting because it kind of went like this. It was, like, peaking and valleying. It was so strange. And I was very attracted to him, which, again, is not a very common thing that I feel. And I could feel the same thing from him to me. But towards the end of the date, it was like, there was just this closure. Like, he was like, I can't proceed. And then I took that as a rejection.
And again, this is the pain of being an empath. I can track all this shit. I can feel it happening in time. I can feel it happening. And I'm just like, okay, I know exactly where this is going to go. Whatever. Whatever.
So then afterwards, my tape started playing, and I was like, you know, I'm not good enough, and whatever, here we go again. Like, I'm being too intense. Like, what do I need to do to change myself in order to make this work, right? And I have two parts of myself. There's the higher part of myself that's like, fuck that. We're not changing anything. You're going to just. You're eventually going to find somebody that can. That can contain you and hold you for who you are. You don't have to change who you are, but there's also this younger part in me that feels like I have to. I have to change or curate or perfect myself so I can be accepted.
So this experience, again, it made me doubt myself. That's what paint rejection does to me. It can make me doubt myself.
It bruises my ego for sure. And then my ego, from a bruised state, will start to go into this shadow energy of minimizing, like, oh, like, I wasn't even that into him anyway. Or whenever I start playing these. These tapes, in my mind, anger is a part of my shadow that I feel when I'm rejected. Defensiveness. Like, it's like I'll go into this inner dialogue of, like, fighting, you know, which is like rumination, right? So when. And I know as soon as I'm in rumination or defensiveness, I'm not feeling something. So for me, it's like, shame or inadequacy needs to be felt and tended to. I don't want to go there. It's too stuck, like, too sticky and yucky to feel right now. So I'm going to go into ruminating as a way to kind of compensate for that. Um, my shadow also likes to reject before getting rejected, not putting myself out there. These sorts of things are very common. So that's. That's more like my lower self.
But then my higher self always comes. Comes in and takes over. And I offer gratitude for rejection from a. From a higher self state because I know that I'm just not seeing something yet that hasn't been seen. My ego wants something, but my soul's like, oh, that's not a good match. Like, no, this is not going to work. Right? So I offer gratitude to the universe for showing me something that I can't quite see yet.
My conscious or my higher self is, like, in acceptance of it, usually right away. Like, there's acceptance of, like, okay, like, this isn't in alignment.
And then whenever I have to move through the shadowy ego energy, I always end up meeting humility when I meet it with consciousness. So it's like, oh, yeah, okay, I'm not for everybody. Right? What does that feel like to be not for everybody?
Like, it's a. It's. It's. It's humility, right? And it's like, it's the opposite of ego energy. It's like I'm. Oh, I can be okay not being for everybody. And.
And then lastly, how do I cope with this pain? So, like I said, I reached out to my friend, and she reflected that to me, and I have. I have, like, a handful of cheerleaders in my life. And they are the people that they, like, I could do no wrong. Like, they see me as, like, the holiest, most loveliest, beautiful person in the world. And those are the people I turn to when I feel rejected, because these are the people that mirror to me my divinity, my beauty, my brilliance.
So I do think it's important, and I'm learning that in life right now is just, like, how important it is to have people, you know, like, people reject us, but also people accept us. And it's like, it's important to have your continuum and know that these are your people, and they love you unconditionally. So, yeah.
Yeah. There's a lot of stuff in this top. In this episode. It's, like, a lot of stuff coming up. You know, it's interesting. Yeah.
Okay, last question.
How have you reframed rejection to make it more palatable?
[00:53:26] Speaker B: I think you just nailed a bunch of great ones that I have used, that I used to reframe. And I take it out of the ego, because clearly it is very much an ego thing, and I kind of give it to God, universe, whatever you want to say. And there's that saying that I think we've all seen so much of rejection as redirection. I do believe that.
I like to tell myself the universe has something better in store. I don't see the full picture here. I only see this much. There's little much, and there's something right around the corner that could be much, much better, much more suited, much more aligned.
So that helps. Similarly, again, to what you had said, matt, is I don't want everyone to like me. I don't want to be accepted by everyone. That's a lot for me.
And I don't want to like everyone either. I don't want to have to like everyone, and I don't want everyone to like me. So when I look at it that way, it's like, oh, it's this perfect system. People like some people and not others, and it works that way, too. Um, and, you know, when I'm in the position where I'm being. Where I'm rejecting someone, I can empathize with that and then vice versa. So sometimes I put myself in their position, and I'm like, well, I kind of get it. Like, I've been there before, so that that helps me. And then another one that has really helped me a lot in probably the last five years is really developing my own sense of self worth, self confidence, and really, truly, truly knowing my own value. And believing in myself. So if someone else doesn't see it, I mean, that's on them. Like, and, and I've done a good job demonstrating it, then that's on them. Like, it's not on me. Like, if I imagine myself, like, hey, I'm this big, juicy steak, but if you're a vegetarian, I'm barking up the wrong tree. It's just not going to happen. I'm still a big, juicy steak. Doesn't mean anything's wrong with me. Doesn't mean that I have to go and be a vegetable. It just means that I'm a big, juicy steak. So I'm still tasty. I'm still juicy. My job is to just focus on finding the people that want a big, juicy steak, and that's it. And when I make it about that, they're really, when I make it about that, it really helps me reframe it and then again takes it out of it being personal. Right. But it doesn't work if you don't truly know that you're a big, juicy steak. Right. You have to really see that and believe it. And I'd say demonstrate that in the world, because sometimes you are a big, juicy steak, but you're not necessarily acting like you're kind of going out there acting like a McDonald's cheeseburger, and that's a different story. So those are some of the quick, quick and dirty ways that I like to reframe.
[00:55:50] Speaker A: Yeah, I like that. What a good analogy. And, you know, how, how we can do that, at least in my opinion, is surround yourself with people that see and value you being a big, juicy steak. Right. Because oftentimes it's like we're trying to get the attention from somebody that can't value us and see us for what we are. That lowers our self worth. So surround ourselves with people who appreciate us and value us. Yeah.
[00:56:13] Speaker B: 100%.
[00:56:15] Speaker C: Oh, I love that. And I love big, juicy sticks.
Yeah. I think one of the first things that comes up is to use it as fuel. You know, to use it as fuel. So, like, sometimes when I get rejected, it'll bring up anger in me, and I've just, like, I've gotten good at, like, looking at that and then, like, channeling it. Right. So, um, I'm trying to think of an example here specifically, but it's like, you know, maybe I'll use it to, like, go harder in the gym, you know, and not, this is not a prescription, and it's not necessarily like, sometimes it's been to kind of be like, you know, I'll prove. I'll show them. I'll, you know, I'll. I'll show them I've got something to prove now.
And sometimes that's fun. Like, sometimes that is fun. I'll admit that. Like, sometimes I do get off on that, but I also think that I've been able to, I guess, to use it as energy, like, alchemize it and use it in the creation of something that I actually want, something that I actually want to experience or to have.
The other thing is it's an opportunity for curiosity.
So, you know, when I experience rejection, what does it bring up in me?
And what wisdom does that information hold?
Right? If I'm willing to sit with everything that arises in me, I'm going to find some gold, you know? Like, there's going to be some gold in there for sure. There are. Always. Always is.
And then. I love what you said, michael. Bumper sticker moment. Rejection is redirection. Love that.
Because from a spiritual perspective, from a higher perspective, it's like there are things inclusive of me and transcended to me that I have no idea going on, right. And so it's like, I'm like, yeah, but I really want that guy. And universe is probably like, yo, chill out. You have no idea what's coming. Like, just relax.
Keep walking. Like, there's more, you know? But we're just like. I'm just, like, so convinced, so convinced that it's got to be that gig or that guy or that, you know, whatever.
And so many times, it's just, like, so much better than I could have imagined, you know, if I just hold out and, like, I just want to say something real quick on that note.
Like, sometimes it being so much better is that I get to have the best relationship with myself that I could possibly have because I was forced to spend time with myself, to meet myself, to know myself, you know, it's not always, oh, the guy shows up or, like, I get the thing I want. Sometimes the gift is like, I don't get the thing I want, but I get the thing I need. You know, sometimes that's the gift, and that can be really hard. Right. But that's another reframe. Yeah, I think that's it. Yeah. Yeah. What about you, Matt?
[01:00:03] Speaker A: Yeah. I feel like I share your guys sentiments. There's not really much more, but I'll. Yeah, well, I guess what I'll say is, you know, based off my. Or my story about going on the date and, you know, being authentic and these things, you know, ever since I've. I've stopped people pleasing, you know, I've. I've gained enemies. Haters, people that don't like me. People. And I've experienced a lot more rejection. And I think that's what people that people please fear because they don't want to sit with the shame, right? People, pleasers, please, because they don't want to feel the emotions that being disliked create. And so for me, authenticity. Whenever I'm struggling with rejection, I'll always remember I'm being authentic. And that, for me, is my number one value. I want to be authentic and real and show up with courage all the time. So whenever I experience rejection, I'm like, I must be doing something right. I must be living authentically. Because when we do live authentically, and that's why they say the spiritual path or the authenticity path can be really lonely, especially at the initial stages of it, when it's like, okay, I'm moving away from people that are inauthentic, and I'm moving towards my most authentic self. Maybe you haven't found your people yet. And that can feel very isolating and very lonely. And I know for me, my spiritual path and being, you know, living almost, like, fiercely authentic has led to, like, loneliness and isolation at times. Right?
So there's this piece to it. And then I wrote a quote on my instagram. It was probably like, I don't know, four years ago. It was like, you have to risk rejection for connection. And, well, and I'll say that you have to risk rejection for authentic connection. Because I think, again, when you're being authentic, there's a high likelihood of being rejected or somebody being like, oh, this person. I don't like steaks. I don't like juicy steaks.
When you're owning being a juicy steak, it's like, yeah, you might get rejected for that.
And then the main word that I use to help reframe rejection, always, it's my higher self that gave me this word. Because my lower self, my ego uses rejection. It's painful, but my higher self reframes it to misalignment. It's just misalignment. And the universe got there before I did. The universe is showing me something, or the person got there before I did. They saw something in our connection that wasn't in resonance before I was able to see it. Because, like, you said, ego. Or I might have been an ego, and I might be like, I really want this. I want this guy. He's so hot. But really, emotionally or value wise, he would not be a good fit for me. So the universe doesn't bring him into my path. Right.
So I'm just. I just trust that the universe is always showing us, like, what we are a vibrational match to. And sometimes we can't see that because we might be operating in ego. And I actually think this was the exact thing I said in our very first episode, which was on rejection. I think I said this exact thing because I've been working with this reframe for probably, I don't know, five or six years now. And it's helped me tremendously. But it does not mean that the sting of rejection doesn't sting, because how it stings for me is ego. So if I'm in ego energy, I'll be stung by rejection. But then I can always soften into my higher self energy, and I realize that it's actually, you know, there's a path that's being paved for me, and I'm walking this path, and this person obviously wasn't meant to be part of this path. So.
Yes. Any final thoughts before we wrap up?
[01:03:41] Speaker C: Yeah, I'll say Michael touched on this. I think in the beginning maybe you did, too. I'm not sure. But, you know, my. I guess my invitation, should you choose to accept or reject for those listening, is like, game. If I gamify asking and, like, see how it lands. And, like, start big or small, you know, like, you could ask for a side of pickles, like I do with your order, right?
Or you could ask for a raise. Or you could, like, hit up that person you have a crush on. Right.
And maybe it's one of us three, I don't know, sliding our DM's, you know, like, you can, you know, but, like, just gamify it and start. Start with. Start with, like, maybe start with the low hanging fruit and then just, you know, keep going. Because as Matt mentioned, you know, there's, like, a resilience that comes with exposure to asking and exposure to rejection, and it just becomes a lot easier, you know, over time. Kind of like cold plunging.
[01:04:56] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
[01:05:01] Speaker B: The resilience comes from. The resilience comes from the ask, regardless of what they say. That's the beauty of it. Um, best case scenario, they say, yes, I'll give you that side of pickles. Um, the worst case scenario is, like, no girl. And then you're like, okay, at least I tried. But that's what the resilience comes from. The attempt, not the result. That's the key. So the more attempts you have. Doesn't matter how many what the yeses and the nos are, but the more attempts you have, the greater your confidence, the greater your resilience and all the good things. So more attempts. That's why I love action oriented coaching. Take action. You can't go wrong. You always learn or you get what you want.
[01:05:39] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly.
Yeah. Beautiful. Well, thanks guys for your wisdom and vulnerability and, and authenticity and all the yummies.
All right, so come and join us last Thursday of every month for sharing Circle to talk about this topic. And we also have our connection circle on the second Thursday of the month, which we break into smaller pods. So connection circle is groups of three come in, we break off. We go deeper into topics with a smaller group of people. Everybody shares. Sharing circle, big group. We don't break off and you know, a handful of people will share and other people listen. And so different, different style of relating. So come and join either of them.
And if you're watching on YouTube, drop some comments. Let us know what your relationship to rejection is like. We would love to hear it. And let's normalize it in the comments section because I know a lot of people come to our channel just to read the comments and learn from each other. So it's a great place to meet people, too.
So yeah. And lastly, yeah, if you want to learn anything more about the gay men's brotherhood, you can visit our
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