Spiritual Abuse & Religious Trauma

[00:00:00] Speaker A: One. [00:00:02] Speaker B: Hello, everyone, and welcome to Gay Men Going Deeper. This is a podcast by the Gay Men's Brotherhood where we talk about personal development, mental health and sexuality. Today I'm your host. My name is Michael Diorio. I am a life and wellness coach specializing in sexuality, relationships, and self confidence. Today's episode is about spiritual abuse and religious trauma. My special guest today is Jeremy Russo, who will be sharing his own firsthand experience with these and lending his insight and expertise on how he has healed from it. Some of the things we're going to cover today are exactly what these two terms mean. Some examples of how people might experience spiritual abuse and religious trauma, and most importantly, I think, how to heal from it. So, Jeremy, before we jump in, why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself to the audience? [00:00:55] Speaker A: Yeah, sure. Glad to be here again. And my name is Jeremy Russo. I have founded and am currently administrative leader for a spiritual community that is online and in person. Our in person base is in Florida and we help people that are recovering from what we call spiritual abuse and religious trauma and toxic faith environments. So the big thing that we're working on now is a docu series that allows people to just share their interviews freely and openly in the hopes that naming these things will be the first big step in helping other people heal from this kind of trauma. [00:01:30] Speaker B: Awesome. Yeah. And today's episode really is, I think, you know, I'm curious to know you think, Jeremy, but really about the healing aspect of it. Yes, we're going to talk about it. We're going to talk about identifying it and really have an honest, I hope, conversation about this that I hope others will, you know, others who have experienced it maybe will feel a little bit less alone. And we'll have some resources as well in the show notes for anyone who might need them. So let me start off by saying a little bit about why I wanted to have this episode. I always start off my, my solo episodes by explaining why for anyone who's been following the show for a while, you know, that I really, really enjoy talking about two things in particular. One is sex and the other one is spirituality. I know they're almost on like two ends of a different spectrum, but yeah, I think, you know, we've done episodes where being queer and Christian, we've done episodes about shame and that comes from religion. We've done all kinds of great episodes and I think this is really, really important that we talk about it. So Jeremy's story today, I hope, will help people. My own experience is that I grew up religious Roman Catholic, Italian background. I went to a Catholic school. School. I learned all of my sex education from Catholic school. Anyone who remembers those fully alive books and how completely awful they were with respect to. They had no education about anything queer at any rate. So that was my background. And as I was coming into terms with the fact that I was gay, which I didn't even have the language for at the time, but I knew something was different about me. But at the time, I translated different as wrong. So my faith, my religion, absolutely contributed to my shame growing up and that feeling like I was wrong and up and I was going to go to hell and something was wrong with me. So as I came out, when I came out, excuse me, at the age of 19, I had to throw away my entire religion with it because it just didn't compute. There wasn't room for both Roman Catholicism, at least in the way that I learned it with being gay. So I threw one out completely. But over time, I grew to understand that I could be. I still had a spiritual aspect of myself, and I grew to define what that meant for myself in a way that was free from the rigidity, free from the hypocrisy of the religion that I grew up in. And so I've talked about this, my experience before on this podcast, and it's not really about that today, But I want to offer that I know that we're kind of looking at spirituality and religion in a. At least the title is in a bit of a negative context, but I really want you to stick with it because what I'm hoping here, Jeremy, is that people will see that, hey, at the end of the day, there is room for both. You can be someone who is queer and also spiritual. Is that right? [00:04:20] Speaker A: Sounds good? [00:04:21] Speaker B: Yeah. Okay, great. Okay, so first let's start off by defining these terms. We have spiritual abuse and religious trauma. So what do those mean? Can you define this for us? [00:04:37] Speaker A: So spiritual abuse tends to be more about the relationship with either a person, whether it's a person of authority or a peer, or a relationship with an institution that is enacting the abuse. The religious trauma tends to be the aftermath of that. So it tends to be the longer term effects, things that you don't see until much, much later. And then as you start unpacking and looking back at these experiences, the trauma is the resulting impact has on your body, on your mind, and on your spirituality. [00:05:08] Speaker B: So in my example that I. That I gave you, I mean, I didn't. I didn't. I wouldn't say that I suffered any specific traumatic event necessarily. How would you. What would you classify that as? [00:05:19] Speaker A: So something that Thomas Hannah, who's a licensed mental health counselor that is helping me produce this documentary about spiritual abuse and religious trauma shares is that most people don't think of trauma as a series of little tiny events that build up over a period of time. There tends to be always equating trauma with this massive, huge, unforgettable event that happens in your life. Whereas religious trauma is more complex than that sometimes. There certainly are instances where you know if someone's like praying the gateway for you that you will remember those traumatic, terrible things in your life. But there are other more complex tiny buildup things, things to your self esteem, hidden messaging, things you don't talk about. And all of those are tiny traumas, lowercase T, that build up to the bigger trauma that is resulting. So I would say to people that think it's a stretch to use the words abuse and trauma for spirituality, I would invite you to rethink it. There's actually a whole segment of psychologists and licensed mental health counselors that are asking for these two things to be named as mental health diagnosis because they are seeing a very common pattern of coping mechanisms and healing processes. Doesn't need to happen to address these specific kinds of experiences. Cool. [00:06:49] Speaker B: And just for my own curiosity, how do you. I'm curious how you define the difference between spirituality and religion. [00:06:56] Speaker A: To me, spirituality is more of a universal term. It's a experience of anything that we don't feel is limited to the physical. It's if, even if someone doesn't like believe in God or believe in a religion, spirituality could be like the emotions to them. Emotions could be a very spiritual way of connecting with someone. It's the things we can't see, the things we can't touch. Religion is a more organized framework that has existed for a long time. Much more organized, with a lot of not just sometimes toxic beliefs, but of standards and behaviors built up on top of that over a long period of time. So it's a more organized version of trying to control faith and spirituality. [00:07:49] Speaker B: Yeah, I would, I would agree with that completely. Okay, so we're on the same page. [00:07:52] Speaker A: Okay. [00:07:53] Speaker B: Okay. So Jeremy's here today because he's going to share with us his story. So, Jeremy, why don't we start. We're all good stories. Start from the beginning. Tell us a little bit about, you know, your background and your childhood. What was life like for you? [00:08:08] Speaker A: So my story isn't that uncommon. From a lot of other people's where religious trauma and spiritual abuse weren't the only kinds of trauma and abuse happening in their life. My family tended to be very physically abusive and psychologically and emotionally abusive as well. Hide your feelings, don't show them. You know, all of this was kind of layered together. So it's taken a while for me to start unpacking more. Okay, maybe that was more of a family trauma. This was more of a spiritual trauma. Because it's on. It's important to name those things and separate those things and deal with them appropriately. So it was just a very volatile environment. There wasn't a lot of stability really with me. A lot of the social interaction I would get would come from church because that was our life. My dad was a pastor, and our relationships were limited to that culture of religion. And anything outside of that was viewed as a very negative thing. You know, we don't have relationships with people who don't believe in God. We don't. We're in the world, not of the world. Sorry if I triggered some of you people. That was a triggering one for me. And then as I grew up, into my teenage years, I started to find language for things that started setting off light bulbs in my head. Um, I think, like what you said earlier, a lot of us either grow up not knowing the language to describe what we're feeling or our emotions or experiences, but even revisiting it maybe in mental health therapy sessions or in conversations with other people. I think we're still sometimes trying to find the language for what exactly we mean. So, yeah, very volatile. It was. It was physically abusive. It was very restrictive. It was very controlled. And as a pastor's kid, you had this expectation of like you were supposed to be the representation of all things wonderful to the rest of the people that are in your church. Yeah. And so it was a lot of pressure, very performance based, I would say, not just in the spiritual realm, but just in general. [00:10:16] Speaker B: And at what point did you realize that being in this, in your home and in your religious community was unsafe for you? [00:10:26] Speaker A: I think I always felt a degree of uncertainty. I think it just got worse as I got older and I started realizing the depth of what it was doing to me. I think part of that is our minds have this mechanism where they try to ignore information that's not absolutely essential to your life at that moment. It's kind of like your mind's coping mechanism. So I don't think I realized how bad it was. I recognized not feeling safe. But as I started to grow up and have the language and realize what was happening. Those feelings really intensified. And that's when I started dealing with things like anxiety. Not even naming it anxiety, just feeling scared more often. So it really kind of came to a culmination. I think the biggest moment I remember is in my teen years when I had a conversation with my dad about, like, belief systems and standards about all sorts of minor things that might sound stupid to someone who didn't grow up in religion, like dress code and, you know, translations of the Bible. And the next Sunday after that conversation, he got up in the pulpit and he was basically railing against everything we had talked about. So it felt very pointed. It felt like a very pointed conversation to me. And that was the first time he said the word gay from the pulpit or homosexual from the pulpit. And so it was a very direct. He had never said that before. So that moment really stuck out to me as the, oh, man, I need to get out of here. Like, I need to figure out how I need to get out of here. And that was probably the one moment that even from that moment, as a healing aspect, I just vowed to myself, I'm like, I will never spew this kind of hatred. I will never, ever do this. And that is a vow to myself. And even in that unsafe environment, that was one of the things that I kind of buckled down and resolved not to be the same way. [00:12:25] Speaker B: How old were you at this point? [00:12:27] Speaker A: Like 17. Yeah. [00:12:28] Speaker B: It's a lot to take on for a 17 year old. [00:12:30] Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. [00:12:31] Speaker B: And for yourself, did you know that you were gay? Did you identify and have that language for yourself? [00:12:37] Speaker A: What's funny is I already lost my virginity at 17, but, like, I didn't have. I didn't. This was back in the days of Craigslist, like, so I didn't really. The language on there was men with men. I didn't for some reason connect gay and homosexual as being an identity descriptor. I just didn't connect that until he said it from the pulpit. And then he said men with men and women with women. And that's when I was like, oh, shit. And then all the shame of, like, me not being pure and like, all of that just started to come crashing down once that language was named. Yeah, so. [00:13:13] Speaker B: So what was going through your mind at the time? Do you remember? [00:13:20] Speaker A: I think it was one of the most terrible moments of feeling the most vulnerable in my entire life. I couldn't get. I couldn't leave. I was planted to the chair. And even if I wanted to leave, I felt like I was just frozen in place, like. Because it was, like, surreal. It was like, am I seeing this? Am I taking this in? And, you know, that can be a thing for people. Going through any kind of trauma really is kind of like that sense of dissociation and maybe trying to distance yourself a little bit. And I think I went through that that first week. It's like, that couldn't have happened. Like, maybe that really didn't happen. But it was later after that that I think I went into my first depression. And I was a very vibrant, bright, almost obnoxious kid, like, with this amount of energy that just was just. I just, you know, loved everything in life and loved people and wanted to be around people and. And I started getting quick and short and frustrated and, like, angry at my brothers and sisters, and it just turned me into a whole different person that I didn't really like, but I didn't know how to deal with it. So really what was going through my mind was more like, is this happening? Like, is this actually happening right now? And. And the fact that he knows. He's not just saying this, like, he knows me. He knows what I told him. And it was just a very, like, yeah, vulnerable, terrible experience outside of that. [00:14:50] Speaker B: Moment where he was speaking on the pulpit. Did you. Did he ever talk to you personally, one on one? Did you guys ever have a conversation, just the two of you? [00:14:58] Speaker A: No, we didn't until years later, and my dad's passed away now, but we didn't until years later, I want to say, maybe two years after I'd come out, and he messaged me out of the blue and asked if we want to go out to lunch. Like, okay. Weird. So I have the good, you know, chick fil a like Christian people do, you know, I wasn't driving and didn't really talk about anything in particular. And then we got back to where he worked, which is at the Christian university I was kicked out of at the time. And he. He's like, I need to tell you something. I'm like, okay. And he's like, you know, I just want to let you know that I had a gay phase in high school, and I got over it, and I had victory over it. Just like. Like, reeling again. I was just like, is this happening? Like, is this real? And the only thing. The first thing I thought to say to him was, you know as well as I do, that's not the way that works. I'm like, you know, deep down in your very soul, you know, that is not the way that works. I know that is not the way that works. And then he just started crying like he'd been holding that in for so many years. And it wasn't until months later that I would realize. Not that it excused the behavior, but I'm like, okay, since I'm living open. And he chose to live a closeted life, every time he sees me, it is reminding him of this internal struggle that he's dealing with and he is choosing to repress. And we know what happens when we repress the angle. It comes out in other ways. His was anger and it was physical abuse. So that was really when we had the conversation outside of the church. Outside of that, we didn't even say the word in our house. It was the first time I had heard him say it from his lips was in the church. Wow. So. [00:17:07] Speaker B: And it speaks to shame as well. [00:17:09] Speaker A: Right. [00:17:09] Speaker B: Like, we've talked about this on the podcast a lot. I think even on our podcast that we've had before is when you have the shame and it goes repressed and it stays within you, it manifests itself in other ways that are usually a lot worse than just healing it authentically. And it sounds like that was very much the case for him, for sure. Yeah. [00:17:29] Speaker A: And then you end up taking that out on other people and making other people feel ashamed because you feel ashamed. [00:17:34] Speaker B: We're talking to you homophobic beeps out there. Not that they'd be listening to this podcast, but. Okay, let's go. Let's go back, Jeremy, to this. You know, you're sitting there in the pulpit, everything's happening. At what point did it reach a breaking point? Because at some point, I mean, you're at that 17 year old age, so you're not quite an adult, but you're not also a child. So what happened next? [00:18:01] Speaker A: Well, things after that point kind of escalated more physically with my dad because there was, I think, more anger in me toward him because I felt even though maybe no one else in the church knew, even though they probably knew, I felt like I was singled out. And so I had a lot of anger and bitterness toward him for that. And so I just. Anything he would say, I wouldn't listen to and I'd dismiss it and just whatever. You're just, you know, speaking off at the mouth. Sorry. You know, probably expected attitude, but it wasn't healthy. Probably I had no other outlet to process those emotions with, so I just took them back out on hand. So that's the way my family did things. I think when it reached the breaking point was I was going to. He was working at the college that I was attending, POW Jones University. He was a staff member, and I was a student. And things got so bad physically one night that I went to the Dean of Men at the college and, like, still just hurting physically. And, like, I'm like, I need to move out of my house. Like, it's not safe for me to be there. And he's like, I. Why? Like, just completely shocked and. Because the perception of my family in the church that we were going to, which is the same church our Dean of Men was going to, it was very inbred, but he was like, your family always looks so, like, happy and so, like, perfect, and so just like, you know, yes, ma'. Am. Yes, sir. Like, da, da, da. And, like, internally, we. All those kids were just screaming inside, like, it's not this way. Like, it is not this way in our family. And so there was this huge disconnect between the way people. Other people perceived us and the way things really work. And the first thing I said when I said dad was physically abusing me was, he's like, your dad would never do that to you. And I was like, you really don't believe me, do you? And then I, like, started to lift up my shirt to, like, show him the prison. He's like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. He's like, no. Because he. I think he knew in his mind at that point if he saw something, he would have then had a legal right to say something, and that would have affected someone that's on their staff. And Bob Jones tends to have a history of suppressing those kind of things and not dealing with them. And that was really a point where I'm like, I am getting out of there. I am not turning back at this point. Like, if Bob Jones will not take me, I will leave the house. I will run away. I will figure something out. I am not staying in this house anymore. I can't. And that was really the breaking point where I'm like, I'm leaving. There was a whole other. The Dean of Men then called my dad and my mom into the office with me. And then I think he saw things really were. Because it was literally just them yelling and screaming the whole time. And I was just sitting there, not even saying anything, like, do you see this? I'm not exaggerating. [00:20:59] Speaker B: They're yelling and screaming at each other, or you at me. [00:21:02] Speaker A: Oh. And the Dina men's like, oh, this is not the. The. The image I see of them at church. This is not computing. [00:21:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:14] Speaker A: So. And then my dad threaten not to sign the form to have me move out of the house. Because if you're a staff kid, you have to have your parents consent for you to move into the dorms at the Christian college. Some of that's like, well, what if I don't sign it? I'm like, well, then I'm calling the police. Like, I am not going back. I am like, I'm done. I'm completely done. I'm not going back. So your choice. So where did you go? And that's not a threat. I'm just saying that's what I'm going to do. Yeah, he signed the paper. So I ended up moving into the dorms, ironically, during Bible conference week, already an emotionally charged week at a Christian university. But that was really that breaking point. I made the decision to leave. So. And at that point, I was 18, so I could do that legally. Yeah, But. Yeah. [00:22:04] Speaker B: And how was your faith at this point? So having grown up in that faith culture, what. What were your thoughts and what was your own? If you can recall your own relationship with faith and spirituality and religion, given that you are suffering at so much at this time? [00:22:24] Speaker A: Because of the way I grew up, I didn't even think it was possible to question anything. I'm like, I. I can't question that. I can't question God. I can't question these things that I've known for 18 years. And it's almost like I started going to, like, the chapel services or to church or whatever. It's like, because I needed to fill a void that I wasn't getting since I was at home and we did that every Sunday. It's like I was doing it because I felt like I needed some sort of stability and connection, even if it wasn't a great connection. It was some sort of stability and connection because I'd already. I was one of six kids, so we had eight in our family. So when I moved to the dorms, it was me, like. And I was not used to being by myself. So I feel like I looked for community in the church, and I looked for that sense of, like, I have a direction, I have a purpose, even though I wasn't really finding it. I'm like, maybe if I just try hard enough, like, maybe if I just keep going, try a couple different churches, then I'll find it. And the breaking point with faith and spirituality there came was when I had found the language to describe myself as gay. And I came out to my best friend who went to the same church with me. I mean, I also happened to have a crush on him, which really didn't help anything. It made the situation a ton worse. Don't make the person you come out to first the person of a crush on. That's a little verb of advice there. Do it to a safe friend. I move on. And I asked them, like, please do not tell anybody. I'm confiding in you on this. I don't want anyone to know. The university, like, church. I just feel like I'm going to explode, like, if I don't tell somebody. This first thing he did was went to the pastor. And so I. The next Sunday at church, I remember sitting in the car with. It was him and three other people that went. And I was just sitting there looking. And I remember looking back and seeing him talking in the past in the parking lot. And I'm like, I know what this is. And, like, just the rethinking feeling of all the rejection again. And just like, like, damn it. He walked into it again, like, why can't you find a way out of this? And so, of course, I pretty much just stopped talking to everybody at the school. I had, like, two or three friends that I would talk to, but that was it. I just isolated myself completely. My other friend talked me into coming, trying to come back to the church and visiting a couple times. So I did, and then was put into a counseling program there. And they wanted me to serve in the praise band. So I'm like, okay, well, maybe they don't have a problem with it. And he's like, well, all of our worship and praise band members are required to go to counseling in order to be in the praise ban. Like, okay, like, leadership training. That's great. And so I went there, and about two months in, I realized it was conversion therapy. It was, like, very, very subtle. Not talked about. It was very, like. It was so subtle. At first, I didn't realize what was happening. And then by the time I realized what was happening, I was like, oh, I'm in it deep. Like, I am in it deep. And that's when I left the church. For. For a Baptist, many months is a very long time. But I didn't go back to church at all. [00:26:00] Speaker B: So you were able to just walk out of there at that point? [00:26:03] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:26:06] Speaker B: Is that a point where you lost faith? [00:26:12] Speaker A: I still feel like something was calling me and I was trying to discern to myself. I'm like, is this guilt, like, or is this actually a sense that I still have a Connection to something, like spiritually or faith wise. I didn't know what it was or what it would even look like outside of the context of the Christian faith that I grew up in. But it was like, there's this yearning and longing and I'm like, oh, you're just dealing with loss, you're dealing with grief. Like, it's just. You're dealing with all these things. But then when I thought I found a community that were actually more health, that was actually more healthy, it's like, I still felt it. And I'm like, why do I keep feeling this? I don't. I want to make sure it's not guilt because I know what that feels like and I know what shame feels like. And so I just tried to repress it as much as I can by going out and getting drunk every weekend, going home with a different guy every weekend, which is nothing inherently. I mean, like, why you do it is what matters. Right. And the reason I was doing it was trying to dampen and repress and shove and not deal with stuff. And just. So that was my intention. So that's why it was unhealthy for me. Yeah. And then I showed up at a church one Sunday because my. I think it was. I called one of my friends or like, really early Sunday morning when, like, the bars had closed and we went and got something to eat. And she was like, why don't you look for, like, just gay friendly churches? I'm like, that's great. That's funny. That's a real good one. I'm like, you know, you really think there's going to be churches that are Christian, like, that are going to accept gay people? Like, that's nice. You have a very positive mindset. I was a little jaded at this point. [00:27:51] Speaker B: Yeah, fair enough. Fair enough. [00:27:53] Speaker A: And she's like, just type it like gay friendly churches. I'm like, and the first one that came up, and she's like, oh, look, that one looks cute. Like, first of all, I'm like, you really think I'm going to go to the first church I see on Google? This is the gay friendly church. I ended up going. But the first Sunday that I went there, it was literally a house that had been renovated. So I'm like, okay, this is us. Like, this is really Susan. And so I'm like driving past it, and I drive past it again, and then I drive past it again. I've also done that, like five times. Just, like, not wanting to turn in the parking lot, like, feeling like it was A point of no return again, I'm like, do you really want to step in here? And this is not another safe space? And then you're rejected again. Like, this is going to put you over there. And then I pulled in the parking lot and then parked, and then I backed. I. I was just probably for half hour, just so conflicted on the inside that I didn't even know what to do. And then I walked up the back steps of the back door, and this friendly gay guy opened the door, clearly gay, and he's like, hey, like, I saw you driving back and forth. I'm like, yeah. Like, are you actually cool here? Like, I'm a little. Like, I haven't been in church in a while. I probably smelled like booze because I'd just been drinking the previous night and, like, whatever. And my little short shorts and, you know, my little fabulous self. He's like, come on in. Welcome. And then I started meeting people and they started saying hi, and I was like, I'm like, I smell like. Like, I probably smell like booze, like. And like, these people are just, like, the most welcoming people. Like, it's almost like they've been here before, like, where I've been. And then I literally probably just cried through that whole entire service because there was such a feeling and such a naming of just accepting love and being willing to accept who you were created to be. And it's like, I didn't have all of the logistics of how I felt, like that would work from a biblical scholarship standpoint, but it was the first time I'm like, I might be okay. Like, I might be okay. So that's when I kind of came back. And even then I would go and then leave and then go and then leave and then go in and leave again. Because I would feel this tension between, like, oh, I'm going out to the bar on the weekend and come to church on Sunday. What a hypocrite I am. And there was so much that was still, like, I call it the Baptist hangover. It's just awful. And it just keeps coming back. And, like, these thoughts that are just literally programmed into you and you're learning to identify them and like, oh, that's where that's coming from. [00:30:36] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:30:36] Speaker A: So there was, like, another year period, probably, where I went back and forth on faith and spirituality, and it was not comfortable to think that the things I knew growing up had a possibility of not being true. That was very, very unsettling. [00:30:53] Speaker B: It's strange, isn't it, that the things that Even though they don't serve you and they're not good for you and they cause you a lot of pain, it's still. And this happens all the time. It's still hard to let go of them. Even though they're. They're not good for us, it's really hard to, like, unlearn those beliefs. [00:31:06] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:31:08] Speaker B: I think that's a big part of the healing, which. Which we'll talk about in a bit. So before we go to that part, Jeremy, for our listeners and viewers out. [00:31:15] Speaker A: There. [00:31:18] Speaker B: Which part of your experience was the spiritual abuse and which part was the religious trauma? [00:31:29] Speaker A: Spiritual abuse would have been the things like my dad saying to me, I'm not only your father, I'm also your pastor, so you're going to listen to me. A lot of my spiritual abuse was experienced from, like, authoritarian figures either in the church or from my parents, or things like that was like, I am over you. You will listen to me. And so what I say goes. Yeah. Or even like emotional manipulation, you know, like, there's. Oh, God, I haven't remembered this in years. But there was a time where, like, the church, I don't even know what prompted them to do this, but they thought it was a great idea to put a mic up in the front of the church and have everybody. People come up and just confess their. [00:32:09] Speaker B: Sins in front of everybody. [00:32:12] Speaker A: Yeah, like, isn't this a real, like a little Catholic? Like, we're Baptists, we don't do this. Like, I gotta help us if it's in front of everybody else. [00:32:21] Speaker B: Even a Catholic student in a little. [00:32:22] Speaker A: Booth with a priest. I know. Side note, I was in Albuquerque and I went to St. Francis Basilica and I saw their confessional booths, but they had two sides. I'm like, oh, you can. The priests can listen to two at once. I'm like, I. I wouldn't be able to handle anyway. But it was. It was such a, like, getting caught up in your emotions thing that it was just like a spiral and like, it's. It's energy, but I didn't know it at that time. And it was literally like emotional hypnosis, like, just inducing you to this spot where you were just in such grief and you're in such agony and such guilt and such shame that you just spewing like, like, oh, I felt this way toward this person. You're just sitting there and I'm just like, what the hell am I saying? Like, I've never done this in front of everybody. And like, that would be spiritual abuse. Feeling Pressure in an environment to do something because everybody else is doing it. And especially as a pastor's kid, like, you're expected to do it. The religious trauma would be once I started going to the affirming church and I started realizing the effects on my current relationships that were still coming from that spiritual abuse, the feeling of trying to chase. And again, like, I'm like, not a slut shamer at all. But the reason I was going so crazy was because I was looking for closeness and connection and intimacy and fulfillment by just giving it out to everybody. And I would equate that with, why don't I feel close? Why don't I feel like this? Like, it was a very rude awakening that I'm like, I just thought you had sex with someone, you love them. Like, that's just my little baby gay brain hallmark. And I'm like, why am I not fulfilled? Like, why am I not feeling like I'm close to these people? Why do they just not talk to me again? Like, and it was this whole. Like, this whole mind. So things like that would be the religious trauma or it's the effects of the relationships you've been in starting to affect your current relationships and starting to identify, like trying to find intimacy in unhealthy places or avoiding intimacy. Some people just avoid it. They isolate from any friends. They avoid sharing anything about themselves. You know, which there's discernment in who you tell what. Yes. And, you know, like Brene Brown says, you have to know who you can be vulnerable to. Yep. But I think we go on a little pendulum, and then we just are so vulnerable and we get taken advantage of. And then we go over here and we don't share anything with anybody, which is the other side of the coin. Those are the things, I think, that are the religious trauma, when you start realizing how the abuse impacted you in the now. Right. And that is a. You will find every single day, like, there are things that, like, you'll say or you'll do or you'll think about someone. You're like, that's probably because of this. That happened years and years and years ago. And I just realized this was still in my subconscious. And so it's a process. Yeah. Realizing. [00:35:26] Speaker B: So the abuse happens in the present moment, and the trauma is the impact of it years down the road. Is that. Is that fair? [00:35:33] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. [00:35:35] Speaker B: Yeah. And as you're talking, you know, we talk on this podcast a lot about shame and the impact of it. But, you know, the things that you are referring to. [00:35:42] Speaker A: Right. [00:35:42] Speaker B: Things like perfectionism, like wanting to be seen as this family who has it all together. That's one of the masks of shame. We use that to kind of go over, gloss over all of the hurt and all the pain that we feel. Another one is denial, denying the truth of it. Another one is. Is, as you had said, you know, looking for connection or relief from the emotions of it, from the emotions of the pain. And whether it's sex or alcohol or substances or whatever it is, we all have our thing that's very common to do that. So I love that the story does kind of hold water in the fact that regardless of where your shame source is, it manifests itself in a lot of the same ways. [00:36:28] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think the biggest thing for people to acknowledge about healing from this is like, you can't go on telling people why did this. It worked for me. Like, it's so intensely different. It is so intensely individual. And the experiences and the nuances of what happened in the relationship, like, dynamics, like, just because I do meditation and yoga, like, that's my thing. But some people, if they're like, neurodivergent, whatever, that really doesn't work. Like, they're gonna find something else. And that a lot of that's just trial and error. Trying to figure out with a licensed mental health therapist, with a life coach, like, what things you can focus on in the day to day to start just making very small, positive steps towards self acceptance, toward acknowledging things and naming things, but not living there. Like, you don't want to re. Traumatize yourself. Always frame the abuse and the trauma. And this is what happened, and this is how it affects me right now. You're bringing it back to the present, and then you're trying to deal with it in the present. So. Yeah. [00:37:29] Speaker B: So then let's talk about your specific journey. How did you heal from all of this? How did you start to, you know, work your way out of that and unlearn all those beliefs and. And move past it? [00:37:42] Speaker A: I don't know if a lot of K people can say this, but when I first started dating my husband, who was also going to church with me, we would have, like, these very intense theological debates, of course, because, you know, like, Baptist or theology over here that I was still, like, having my Baptist hangover, and he came from a very different background. And we're just sitting there. I'm like, it's not that, it's this. And like, stuff is so very important to me. And then I'm sitting there like, you really don't know what the you're talking about to me, like, is really this. Is this the hill you're willing to die on? You know, because we were. And again, that's part of the trauma. We were ingrained in apologetics and standing up for your beliefs and trying to persuade people to believe like you. And that's the core of evangelicalism right there. And of course, I had stigma around mental health therapy. Like, no one was telling me to go to mental health therapy. I'm like, I'm not a nutcase. I'm not going to mental health therapy. What are you talking about? It wasn't until probably trying to think of when that was 2017, that I actually went and saw my first mental health therapist. And when I did the intake form for the counseling agency, I went with, she's sitting there, and I'll just never, like, forget, like, the look on her face. And she's like, all right, so, like, based on what you're telling me, and you're like. She's like, I think we need to put you with a trauma therapist. I'm like, really? Trauma? Like, trauma therapist? Really? That seems a little excessive overkill. Like, are you sure you suddenly like a regular therapist? She's like, how about you give it a try? And then if it doesn't work, you can always change. And she's sitting there going, you definitely need a drama therapist. Yeah. And I think I realized in little ways before then how things were affecting me, but my self awareness was, like, still very much in the tank. And even my practices, like yoga were still very physical. They weren't mind body connection. Like mind, body, spirit connection. It was very like, this is the physical exercise. And, you know, it wasn't about connecting to your inner self. And the first session I went to the trauma therapist, it's oh, Lord Jesus, I like to say that's what I realized. How up. Not really. That's when I realized, like, how messed up some of the things that I went through actually were. I think the weight of everything finally came crashing down on me. Like, I thought I felt it before and when I was sharing these things and just, you know, rattling off these stories, because that was my lived experience. That was my normal. I didn't. I thought every pastor's kid went through this like this, because my family would be like, everyone goes through this. Everyone goes through their parents beating them and this and that. So you're like, okay, well, I'm so lucky because, you know, I don't have it as bad as so and so over Here. But I had this weird thing where I'd start laughing when I would talk about something very, very serious or traumatic. And I'm like, he's gonna think I'm a psycho. Like, why are you doing this? And so afterwards, he stops and he's like, okay, we're gonna take five minutes. He's like, and I just want you to like, just sit and like, just be in the present. I'm like, I came here for talk therapy, but we did. And it was the most powerful thing because as I'm sitting there, I'm like, oh, like, thinking about the things that I just said. And I'm like, maybe not everybody did deal with this. Maybe this is just a specific to me scenario. Like, maybe. Maybe I do really have a lot more to work through than I thought I did. And through talking with him in therapy, I discovered that like, the whole laughing about uncomfortable things was a coping mechanism that I would do growing up. Whenever I'd feel unsafe, I try to make a joke and start laughing. It's like, let's keep the situation light. Like, we're not getting knowledge, negative emotions. We're just not going to do that. And so, like, I would do that. Yeah, it's gotten much better, believe me. Like, when I. It was, it was bad when the first I'm like, I said, you're literally gonna think I'm such a psycho. Like, because, like, it's my way of trying not to feel things so deeply. It was a. It was a coping protective mechanism. And through that, I had just different levels of self awareness be increased and unlocked. And the big theme that he kept going back to was frame your past experience into how it's affecting in the present. Like, don't just stay in the past. Frame how you think is affecting you in the present. And then we work on moving forward. And so I went to him for probably about two years, did a lot, like a very uncomfortable self work and a lot of vulnerable conversations and apologies to people, you know, even like exes that I had just treated like. And not because they were terrible, but because I was like, I was defending myself the way I knew how. And I didn't want to be vulnerable. I didn't want to even deal with it. And every time I'd start to get remotely emotionally close, I'm like, I'm not gonna live if I don't have this person. Like, it's very codependent type of idea. And later they're like, yeah, like, it hurt. Like, that sucks. But, you know, I mean, I Did the same thing when I came out too. Like, it's like we all have our, like, initiation phase. And I guess that's just the initiation phase. But it, it brought a freedom to me of being able to talk about it more openly. And once I started talking about it with a licensed therapist and started naming some of these things and like, reframing those things into how it was affecting me in the present day, that's when a lot of the healing starts. And people think of healing as like this. Oh, you know, this white light thing that comes down to you and healing. Healing is messy. Like, you know, you're healing when you're feeling very deeply and you're just like, this is what healing feels like. Like, this is what growth feels like. This sucks. Yeah. And then later, like a week later, you notice yourself responding differently. You're like, oh, this is the result of the self work. This is the result of, you know, learning yourself and being more intuitive about yourself and being in tune with your body. And so, yeah, I don't know how I got off on that, but. No, that's all probably related to the question, hopefully. [00:43:58] Speaker B: Yeah, it absolutely is. One of the things that I love to, to remember about anything in our past is the past is done. We can't go back, we can't change it. But yeah, you can choose to bring it with you into the present, and how you choose to bring it with you into the present is really what matters, Right. A bad thing is a bad thing. A bad experience is about experience. But how you frame that today, how it, how it's going to affect you today in the present moment, really will determine your experience of it now. Because it already happened, right? [00:44:29] Speaker A: Yeah, it did. And I would say to someone that is trying to start working through some of their experiences of abuse and trauma, whether, I mean, whether it's spiritual or not. But spiritual and religious trauma do have their very own unique nuances that mental health therapists are finding specific ways to address it. Yeah, but what I would tell people is, you know, just prepare yourself. I think you'll realize how much of a critical voice you still have living inside you. And just observe it and don't take it personally. Like your inner voice is the culmination of all the experiences that you have heard over the years, the things people have said to you. One of the most powerful things I did was my second therapist because my insurance changed, so I had to go to a different therapist. The first session I was, I thought I had done so much work and then I went Back to therapy. And I'm like, you are screw up. You're back at therapy again. And I'm like, no, no, no. That's criticism right there that we don't like that. And the first thing he told me to do was, I want you to write every critical thing you think about yourself down on a piece of paper. I'm like, this is easy writing things down. Got a whole sheet of paper filled. I start writing the backside and going, whatever. He's like, now write the positive things about yourself. And I'm like, I think I'm funny. Like, I think I'm energetic. Like, like the tone just completely changed to a sense of un, like discomfort. And he's like, I want you to look at the voices that you wrote down on the critical page. And he's like, and I want you to look at each one and write down who said what to you. Growing up, every single thing that I thought critically about myself I could trace to a person that said something to me. Yeah. And that's when I'm like, these aren't my voices. This is other people. This is me internalizing what everybody else has said about me. These aren't even my voices. Like, it was crazy. And to start realizing those things is extremely uncomfortable. And that healing process is just tough. But just be prepared for a lot of yourself pushing back almost like as a self defense mechanism because your body's still trying to find those unhealthy coping mechanisms to like, nope, don't go there, don't go there. But nowhere is a safe space. And let it out, name it, speak it. [00:47:11] Speaker B: Well said. The analogy that I love to use is it's, it's like what you're speaking to is an emotional wound, but it's like having a physical wound. If we have a physical wound on our arm or something and we don't tend to it, we don't heal it, we just cover it up with stuff under that stuff, it's, it's rotting and it's getting infected. And so the work is to unravel whatever you put on there. And that's going to hurt. And as you go deeper into the wound, it's going to hurt even more. So it's almost counterintuitive. Like this hurts more. I shouldn't be doing this. I should just continue to like ignore it and just put this band aid on it when, when in fact it needs to be looked at cleaned out, which hurts like hell. And then that's when the healing starts. So I love that you had made that comment, and it's. It's very true. And it does take a long time, right? [00:47:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:47:58] Speaker B: So at any point, Jeremy, did you want, like, justice or retribution for what happened to you? [00:48:04] Speaker A: Oh, I dealt with a lot of anger and bitterness at people. And the way I explain to people, my experience is just mine, but I feel like I. My emotions had been just frozen for so long, and it's like once it started to thaw, it was like a flood, and everything just started pouring out. All of this, like, anger and this resentment and this bitterness and the grief and everything. Like, it's like every emotion was so uncontrollable. It's because I had repressed it for so long. I felt like I'm, Like, I'm never going to be able to control like, or manage my emotions. Like, this is ridiculous. If this was what feeling angry feels like, this is terrible. If this is what feeling deep sadness and grief feels like, I hate this. I don't ever want to feel this. But I had to keep telling myself, like, this is the first time you're letting yourself feel these things in years, probably your entire life. So, like, when you want the justice of the retribution or, you know, the bitterness, it's. It's about reframing it. It's like, you know, yes, I can be angry at the things that happen to me and be, like, depressed and upset, and I have the right to feel those things. And if I keep repressing those emotions, then they're just going to keep building until something later. But you need to find a way to talk through it and finding an outlet for it, whether it's a creative outlet, whether it is. And I think it really needs to require talk therapy. Like, please. And, like, finding groups of friends where you can just exist. You don't have to talk. You can do whatever you want. My friend Debbie, she comes over and she just colors. We don't even talk. We just sit there and we just exist. And sometimes when you're going through something, that's what you need. You just need someone to sit with you and offer presence. Yeah. And I started to. When I wanted the justice, the retribution. I had a conversation with my therapist about forgiveness and how I'm like, I hate the idea of forgiveness. It's just terrible. It's like, you don't have to forgive people. He's like, well, no, you don't, I guess, have to, you know. But he's like, what is it about forgiveness that you hate? I'm like, it just lets him off the hook for Everything, Absolutely everything. And he's like, so I want you to look up the definition of forgiveness. And so I did. And he was talking about, you can hold forgiveness and justice in the same thing. He's like, you can feel more than one emotion at once. Like we can hold things as complex beings and want and, and forgive someone and also want justice and say, that was not acceptable. And I will not let this happen to me again if it is within my power to do so. And so once I started understanding those things, it was more, it was more a lot of self forgiveness that I found out that I was actually needing because it was like, why did you notice this sooner? You know, you idiot, why didn't you. Why wasn't that the time where you decided to leave and you waited until you did instead of having compassion for the decisions you made and knowing that at that time you did what you thought was the best thing to do, whether it was not healthy or it was healthy, you did what you thought in your environment, your little bubble, you thought this was the best thing to do. Because this is what I know. And it just comes a time where that's. You don't have to do it anymore. Yeah. [00:51:46] Speaker B: I always say it's unfair to ourselves to judge our past selves for decisions we made based on things we didn't know at the time. Like we have knowledge and experience and expertise now. It's easy to look back and say, oh, why did I do that? And be, you know, and be mean to yourself. But it's not fair. Right? You, you did the best you could with what you had. I'm speaking to everyone here when we have that tendency to want to judge our past selves. And that doesn't mean you don't make mistakes. Of course we make mistakes. And of course there's things that we learn. But take the learning from it. That's what we're talking about. If something bad happens, the learning is, okay, well, here's what happened and here's what I'm going to do about it now. Now I've. Now I know better. Now I know the science now I'm not going to do that anymore. So, yeah, it's really hard. I think I see that a lot where people, or myself included, will kind of on themselves for things that they may have done in the past when it's just not fair. You didn't know what you know now then, right? [00:52:43] Speaker A: Yeah. Right. So it's true. [00:52:46] Speaker B: Did you ultimately find a way to forgive? Because forgiveness is really about. It's for You. You forgive someone for yourself. You're not condoning them. You're not letting them off the hook. You're not giving them a carte blanche. You're still holding them accountable. But you forgive as a way to kind of release the resentment, release the anger, which does take time. [00:53:06] Speaker A: I did. Well, it took a very long time. And I think something my therapist will keep saying to me, he's like, it's like, I'm not saying you have to forgive, like, now, today. Yeah. He's like, just work through it now. Like, you know, I'm not saying, like, you have to forgive him right now. Like, honor your emotions. Yes. Think through them, process them, journal them, talk with me about them. Like, in forgiveness is something that, you know, it's not like a one time I've forgiven them. Like, sometimes it is a daily choice to go back and to offer forgiveness. Like, whether it's to yourself or to the person, you know, it's. And my forgiveness came from. Understand, from understanding. So the more I understood about potential reasons or motivations why someone might do something after I started understanding the reasons why I was doing things, yeah, I didn't excuse the behavior, but I'm like, I mean, if you've made the same set of choices they made up to their point in their life, you could have definitely done the same thing. You know, it's. It's having compassion for yourself first and also having compassion for the other person. I started to have more compassion, understanding for my dad when I started realizing the implications of the things he told me, you know, And I'm like, that must have been a really sucky way to live. Like, I can't imagine, like, just the turmoil of 25 years of marriage, six children later, you know, again, it doesn't excuse the behavior, but I sympathize. And, you know, I finally came to the realization. My therapist, I'm like, if I made the same decisions he did, I could have been the same way. Like, the only thing that's different about me is I'm choosing to live as myself and work through all this and hopefully become a better person on the other side. And it's just that one decision that you recommit to every day that made the difference. Yeah. Yeah. So I was able to find forgiveness eventually. And I mean, for me, I did reach a point where I don't feel like I'm bitter or angry at him at all anymore. But that took years, years to get there. Sometimes it was just a daily reminder of not letting this have control over me. And, you know, having sympathy and forgiving. [00:55:42] Speaker B: In my own life, when I. When I look at, you know, people who have done things to victimize me, what helps me is I don't think they truly woke up one day and said, you know what I'm gonna do today? I'm gonna make Michael's life miserable. I'm gonna bully him, and I'm gonna say mean stuff to him, and I'm just gonna. I want to make his life miserable. I really, truly don't believe that that's what they did. I think that, you know, you said it really well. They're coming from their own hurt, their own pain, their own lack of awareness, whatever that may be. And I was just, unfortunately, on the receiving end of it. And again, that doesn't excuse their behavior, not giving them any kind of carpal, but it does make it a little bit easier to see. And then at the same time, I think that helps me with forgiving them. It's like, they didn't intentionally try to, like, make my life miserable, for sure. [00:56:29] Speaker A: Like, later I'd find out, even after my dad died, some of the dynamics with him and his parents were very similar. His dad was very abusive sometimes. And again, like, not a. Oh, well, that just means you're going to carry on the cycle for the rest of your life. No. But it does offer another insight to where there's a very strong influence there that, if it's not addressed, can lead to taking it on other people. Yeah. [00:56:58] Speaker B: So let's bring it into the present day. Jeremy, how has all of this, like, where are you at now with all this? [00:57:06] Speaker A: I'm at a. I'm reaching a point now where I can start to hold space for other people's experiences. It took me a long time still to get there. I feel like another thing I want to say to people that are trying to heal from this kind of thing is, you know, don't be afraid to tell people, like, I love you. I'm not in a space right now. I'm working on my own healing, and I really think you need to talk with someone, and I will be here as a friend to support you, but I'm not in a space where I'm even able to talk about this right now. I want to, and I want to support you as a friend, but I'm not there. I would just stay in these situations. Even way past. One of my emotions were like, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. So learn how to draw boundaries with yourself. Draw boundaries other people as you're healing and don't be afraid to enforce those boundaries, because ultimately they will help you in that healing process. And boundaries are a healthy way of protecting yourself. [00:58:10] Speaker B: Absolutely. Yes. Boundaries are for you. [00:58:13] Speaker A: Yeah. Yes. Yeah. [00:58:15] Speaker B: They protect you not to try to control other people. We always say that. [00:58:18] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:58:19] Speaker B: Right. [00:58:20] Speaker A: You know, it's not saying you can't do that. It's saying, if this happens, this is how I will respond. [00:58:26] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:58:27] Speaker A: Or this is what I will do. [00:58:28] Speaker B: Yeah. It's really about. [00:58:29] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [00:58:30] Speaker B: Well said. Now, do you think there have been. There has been any silver lining from this experience now that you are years beyond it? [00:58:49] Speaker A: I would say that the people that I have met and been able to talk with that have come through these kind of experiences and are still pursuing their spirituality or their faith or their lack of it, because, let's be honest, some people, it's not for them, and they don't want to do that, and that's completely valid. But the people that still work through all of this, and if you choose to try to come back to a sense of spirituality and faith, like, those are some of the most resilient people you will ever meet in your entire life. Because in the face of everything that they have been through, just holistically as a person, like, physically, spiritually, mentally, emotionally, psychologically, the list ends. They don't let people take that part away from them. It's a sense of, like, agency and empowerment over your own spirit. And it's like, you still hold on to that. Like, this is mine. I get to define what this is for me. Right. And it's the ultimate, like, empowerment. And if you keep working through it and if you return back to it and you keep trying and it's not working, you can leave. It's. It, like, don't feel like if you enter faith or spiritual community that thinks they're the answer for you, like, be a little leery or like, you found your home. Don't leave here. Red flag. I've always told people to come, to emerge, like, I'll be your friend whether you're here or not. Like, we're all here to heal together. And if you want me to just meet you outside of these meetings, that's perfectly fine. I don't. I'm not taking it as a personal offense. I had my times where I had to leave and come back. And honestly, I wouldn't go back and change anything because all those things led me to people and led me to different things that made me who I am. And since I can't change it, I just need to accept those things and learn how to use those things to inform my decisions going forward. So. Yeah, well said. [01:00:59] Speaker B: I couldn't agree more. And. And I'm sure that it has impacted and influenced your role now as a leader, as a facilitator, and all these wonderful things. Right. And I'm sure that someone's listening to this, is being helped by your story today, so there's that as well. Yeah, so what. I mean, you've. You've kind of peppered throughout the episode advice and words for people who might have experienced this or are experiencing this. What else would you want to say. [01:01:28] Speaker A: To them before I wrap up? Find a talk therapist or find a life coach as a safe space to process these things in. It is a natural desire to people that you are close with and friends that you are close with to be emotional and trauma dumping and not even realize it. So find a life coach, find a therapist that you can just share these things with and they can help you frame the conversation around what it means for you today. Before you go to everybody else and tell everybody else about it, tell everyone. [01:02:08] Speaker B: What trauma dumping is for people who don't know that term. [01:02:12] Speaker A: Oh, trauma dumping is basically like when you. Well, to me, it's like when you haven't shared anything about it with anyone and you just literally talk about experience after experience after experience after experience. Or you trauma bond, which is another form of codependency. It's like, oh my God, I experienced that. And then you form this connection over shared pain and it goes past the point of empathy into some unhealthy behaviors. And knowing when that line is is going to help you as you're healing too. So find a talk therapist. Find a life coach. Also for me, a psychiatrist was an essential part of that mix. The psychiatrist helped me understand that there are very physical reasons why people experience anxiety and depression. Has to do with chemicals in your body. Yes, Your body literally holds anxiety and depression and PTSD in different places. Like it. It will literally hold it at the cell level. So there is the mental component and there is a spiritual component of dealing with anxiety and depression. And sometimes it's your body makeup, like it's. And it's both of those things. So for me, finding that was difficult. And breaking through the stigma of being on medicine was a huge part of the healing process for me. And once I did, I'm so glad I remember, like the first after it really settled in. Sometimes it takes a month for those things to adjust in your body. But after like a month In I'm like, this feels weird. Like, is this what it like, feels like? Maybe not to be as anxious. Very weird. It's like I was building a whole new library of like self awareness, existence. I'm like, this just feels weird. Something's suspicious. Yeah, I'm feeling relaxed. [01:04:15] Speaker B: Yeah, It's a whole new way to be. [01:04:17] Speaker A: So don't delay in reaching out for support and help. Don't ever. There are people like Thomas Hannah from Tempest Counseling. He is actually a licensed mental health counselor that was a pastor, interestingly. And what he brings to his practice is the knowledge of the language and the knowledge of the framing. That happens a lot of times in religious environments. And he can speak to a person with the language they understand and then are able to pull them out of that and help them realize different ways of reframing those things in a way that I feel like a lot of people, maybe if they're not a pastor, if they're not haven't been in a religious environment, they may not understand. Not that they don't want to, not that they're anti it, but they just don't have that experience. And so he does like online sessions. A couple other resources. There's one called the Global center for Religious Research. If you're an academic nerd like me, there's a lot of studies and conversation happening with licensed mental health professionals and psychologists and psychiatrists about trauma, its impact on the body, how spiritual trauma happens, ways to help people deal with spiritual trauma, how to be more supportive, friend, like conversations. They really aren't just happening enough. I think they'll get there, but it's still a new realm for a lot of people. You can always visit Emerge if you want. I don't ever pressure people to be there. It's. But Emerge is a space more where we'll have like an online dialogue based conversations around general conversations like what is faith and spirituality to you? You know, what was an experience that changed your trajectory about that? And so it's a spot where people can just figure things out themselves and talk. And someone jokes that it feels like an aa because I like pass a piece around to people and they each say something. I'm like, well, you know, if it works, don't change it. Um, but. And talk to your therapist and your life coach about codependency because there is a high risk of people that are coming out of severe trauma, of them falling into more codependent relationships, not even realizing that's what they're doing. Because you're trying to relearn a frame of living. And it's natural. It's not a knock on you. It's not saying that it's a terrible thing. But you're going to do what feels right to you, and what initially feels right to you may not be the best thing in the moment. So share these things with people. Share these things with your therapist. Talk about how to build solid friendships. Yeah. You know, do find a support group of people, but don't dump on them. Right. [01:07:04] Speaker B: But the good thing about having a facilitator. Yeah, the good thing about a facilitator is they will be able to draw that line. Okay. This is, you know, healthy processing. This is dumping and trauma bonding, right? [01:07:14] Speaker A: Yes. [01:07:15] Speaker B: And that's the good thing about being in those kinds of groups. If it's. If it's a group or with a therapist or coach or counselor. [01:07:21] Speaker A: Yes. Yes, for sure. Yeah. So those are a couple things that I would recommend. [01:07:24] Speaker B: Beautiful. And we're gonna put all these resources in the show notes. Yes. Yes. Good. So I'll put them in the show notes for anyone out there who's listening, Whether you're watching on YouTube or listen to the podcast, It'll be there at the end of the day. I guess what I wanted to let our viewers and listeners know is that there is help and you're not alone. And everyone's experience might be slightly different, but at the end of the day, the resources are there to help you, and you don't need to do this alone. There is support in lots of different forms. Jeremy has given his examples of how all the different ways that you kind of manage to see the light at the end of the tunnel, work your way through it. And yes, it is painful. Yes, it is hard. But, you know, the one thing is denying your emotions. This is for everyone out there. Denying your emotions causes more pain and harm in the long term, both physically and emotionally, than simply processing them and feeling them. And I say simply, not easily. [01:08:21] Speaker A: Right. [01:08:21] Speaker B: It sounds almost too easy, but it's not. We, you know, Jeremy told us about that. But yes, as you deny them, it, it generally causes a lot more issues in the long run. All right, Jeremy, so where can people find you if they want to connect with you? [01:08:37] Speaker A: On Facebook, I think those things will be linked somewhere. Maybe you can see the Facebook and Instagram. [01:08:45] Speaker B: It's emerge. Emerge is where you are. [01:08:47] Speaker A: Emerge. Yes. And so that will be in the community. There's emerg.org that is where you can go to kind of see it, get a better idea. Like what we are exactly and what we're about. And yeah, that's where you can find me. I'm always opening if to people if they don't know where to look for support, I may not know either. But I can ask questions to people and we can find it together. So. Yeah, just letting you know that too. [01:09:16] Speaker B: I'll echo that as well. If, if you're listening out there, you don't know where to turn, you can reach out to me personally or Jeremy, I might not be the the guy, but. But I can certainly help you find someone who can. Happy to help in any way I can. [01:09:28] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay. [01:09:28] Speaker B: Jeremy, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you for sharing your story so vulnerably, so poignantly and really having the courage to do that. I really want to honor that and thank you for that service you've provided for our audience and myself. [01:09:40] Speaker A: Thank you. Thank you. [01:09:42] Speaker B: All right, viewer, listener, if you're watching on YouTube, go ahead and leave us a comment. Jeremy and I will be looking at the comments. We will reply perhaps. And if you're listening on, I say perhaps only because we don't reply to the out there and there are many on YouTube. If you're listening to us on Apple podcast, please go ahead and give us a five star rating and we will see you in the next episode. Thanks, everyone. [01:10:07] Speaker A: Bye Bye.