Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
Welcome to Gay Men Going Deeper, a podcast by the Gay Men's Brotherhood that showcases raw and real conversations about personal development, mental health, and sexuality from an unapologetically gay perspective. I'm your host, Michael DiIorio, and joining me today is Matt Lancible.
Today we are talking about a show that has many gay men either singing its praises, tearing it apart, or wondering what the hell's the big deal with all this. Yes, we are talking about he rivalry. And this is a show that's not just entertaining us, but it is, I think, exposing a divide in how we respond to gay media, gay love, sex, intimacy, and even coming out. And that's what we want to talk about here today.
So in the last couple weeks, I watched the show between Christmas and New Year's. It's January. And in the last couple weeks, I kind of took to social media to get a read on what y' all are thinking about this show.
And I shared my own thoughts on my Instagram, which generated some very heated discussion. And then I asked our Gay Men's Brotherhood Facebook group their opinions. I just said, hey, guys, what do you think of the show? Very open ended. And I got some strong reactions on both sides, very diverse. Which I think is the interesting bit. Some guys think the show is a gift from the gay gods and it's the best thing that's ever happened in, like, gay media.
For others, it induces rage, and then for others, it just has no impact whatsoever, like, no big deal.
So it got me thinking, why does this show so deeply move some and do absolutely nothing for others? And that's the interesting bit for me. So this podcast episode is not a review of Heated Rival, where you're not going to go through, like, episode by episode. That's not what we're doing here. It's more looking at why these stories land so differently for gay men.
And so let's start with Matt. I told Matt a few days ago that I wanted to do this episode, and I said, yeah, what do you think? He said, well, I only saw the first episode and really it didn't captivate me to keep watching. So my question for Matt is, why didn't it captivate you?
[00:02:03] Speaker B: Uh, well, I want to say, first of all, it's a Canadian show, so I really wanted to support it. And it's. It's now made international stage, which is really great. I love that. Um, so for me, it felt like I kind of had a bit of mixed feelings, actually. So I like the idea of it being hockey. I grew up playing hockey. It's a very, very dear thing to, um. But the, the part that didn't captivate me is I, it's. I only watched the first episode so it was very porn esque.
[00:02:35] Speaker A: Right.
[00:02:36] Speaker B: And for me it just didn't really. Didn't get me going. But then I've talked to people and they're like, well, you got to keep going because the emotional stuff will start to tie in eventually. And that for me being a demisexual, that's what is going to captivate me. So I, I need to, I'm going to give it another chance. So I just don't have crave really.
[00:02:55] Speaker A: How did, how did you watch the.
[00:02:56] Speaker B: First one at this guy's house that I was.
Yeah, so we just watched the first episode together and then.
So I haven't been able to see it since. Yeah. So eventually get around to it though.
[00:03:08] Speaker A: What was your. You said it was porny like, or porn esque. So. So what was missing for you? That, that emotional connection and what was your first opinion?
[00:03:19] Speaker B: Yeah, I totally get that it would need to do that though, like to kind of get. Because that's the premise of the show. It's like discreet.
It's, you know, so that, that's the build. Right. It's like they have to show that it's not something that's accessible. Right. And then. But yeah, I don't know. I just, I think for me it's just I haven't given it a good enough chance to, to be captivated by it.
[00:03:40] Speaker A: Yeah, I think I.
[00:03:44] Speaker B: I have a.
[00:03:44] Speaker A: Lot of opinions on it, but I think that yes, it has to do that because it's TV and entertainment and come on, guys. Like, this is what I mean. They're, they're not trying to have a accurate, realistic depiction of gay culture. This is not, that's not what they intended to do here. They wanted to get eyeballs on the TV and it did. It worked. They did a good job. So that's why they did that for me. I. This. I guess I don't know when exactly it came up, but it started showing up in my like, aura through Instagram and through my friends around like December, December. So everyone in my circle was talking about it. I'm just getting memes and people are posting things. I'm like, I don't, I mean, okay, this show is kind of there. I'm not really much a hype guy. I usually kind of wait until all the hype's gone and then I watch it. But, but I will Say that's what changed it for me was like, I had client sessions, and they're like, oh, my gosh. And have you seen heated rivalry? I want to talk about it. And I'm like, okay. Like, this is really apparently striking up feelings for people. So that's what got me to watch. I'm like, okay, if my clients want to talk to me about this, then I'm going to watch it. So we can kind of coach them through and use the show as a coaching opportunity.
So I love that. Yeah. It's not just. And then I switched it from like, okay, this is just another TV show, to like, this is not just another TV show. This is something that's having a cultural impact, and whether I like it or not doesn't matter so much because I want to know what all the fuss is about. So I watched it between Christmas and New Year's. That break, it's only six episodes. I finished it.
[00:05:09] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:05:10] Speaker A: And I felt the same as you, Matt. The first episode, even two, I was like, eh. I'm like, okay, sure. But similar to you. People said, just keep going, keep going, keep going. And I did.
And I completely changed my opinion on it by the end. I did a bit of a. Was it 180? Yeah, a 180 on it.
So my. My opinion now is that it.
I think it's become very popular because it taps into the fantasies that a lot of gay men have that never got fulfilled. It's a. It's a fantasy fulfillment episode. It's catnip for the emotionally tortured gay heart is what it is. And you can take your pick on any of these stories, Right. The getting chosen by the hot guy, a hookup that turns into something deeper.
A secret love affair with. With a hot kind of athlete. There's so many. Even the hot sex. The hot sex, plus the emotional intimacy that comes with it. Like, there's so many fantasies that I think we get to play out through the show, and that has been, I think, why we're so obsessed with it. But it's still interesting that some people love that it's a fantasy fulfillment and others kind of still don't, and they find a lot of rage in it.
[00:06:23] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:06:23] Speaker A: And that's interesting to me.
[00:06:25] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, I'm just kind of reflecting on, like, what I was feeling when I was watching the first episode. And I felt like there was a bit of a sadness in me, like, that this is how we are portrayed. And again, I know, like, everything is contingent on me not seeing the rest of the show because that's when they. They tie in that there's actually love here and there's actually feelings. But I kind of was like, this is really what gay men are always portrayed as, as horny and just always fucking each other and stuff like that. And for me, I was like, there was a sadness about that because I'm like, there is sadness in me around wanting more from our community and it not being available. Right. Like wanting more guys to be demisexual and to actually want to connect in deeper ways beyond just the physical body.
So that's what came up for me. And maybe that is what causes rage for other people. It's like, once again, this show pigeonholes us as horny, you know, like discreet, like all the things that I kind of find maybe not.
Not appealing about our community, you know. So it's making me want to watch the show more now because it's like I want to. I don't want to be left with that taste in my mouth. I want to try and give it a chance to. To captivate. Like, how. How were you captivated by it? Like you kept. You kept watching it?
[00:07:42] Speaker A: So what, by episode three? Yeah, by episode three there it just kind of shifted a bit and I was like, okay, now I'm. Now I'm. Now my interest is piqued. And then by the end of. By one, I was like, okay, fine, I'll watch two, because I kind of have to, and I guess I will. I wasn't that keen, but after episode three, I was like, okay, I want to know. Like, now I'm in, like, let's do this. And the same thing. Like 3, 4 and 5 and 6 were all the same.
And so I think what captivated me is exactly. Is exactly the piece you're missing. I think the only difference with you and I, Matt, is, is I kept going. And I'm actually very interested to hear what you think of it after you watch it. But all of a sudden, like there was. The first episode or two was just very like superficial, the characters. And when I'm watching tv, I like. I like rich depth characters.
[00:08:25] Speaker B: Yeah. Like meaning and story and.
[00:08:27] Speaker A: And they were kind of one dimensional by three. All of a sudden these added dimensions start getting teased and pulls and then they go deeper and deeper in four and five and episode six.
And so that's really, for me, what hooked me. And I think they kind of did like a bait and switch. Like they baited us with the sex and the hot men and the nice butts and all the things and Then they switched in a good way to, like. And, hey, by the way, guess what? These people have feelings and they have traumas and they have issues and. And all the intimacy that comes after.
[00:08:57] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Interesting, interesting. Something got activated me. When you said bait and switch, I don't know if that's, like, it makes me think, like, that's the only thing that captivates gay men's attention.
Right. Like, if you think about, like, you look on Instagram, you see, like, the most. The guys. The most popular followings are the guys that are just posting their shirtless photos.
[00:09:18] Speaker A: Right.
[00:09:19] Speaker B: So it's like bait and switch. But usually gay men are just baited. There's no switch.
[00:09:23] Speaker A: There's no switch.
[00:09:24] Speaker B: So there's no switch into, like, oh, I'm actually a human being and I have a heart and I want to connect with you deeper, these sorts of things. So. Yeah.
[00:09:32] Speaker A: Yeah, it annoys me, too. And, you know, this podcast, Matt, if all of us did this same podcast without our shirts on, like, in some studio with, like, gray lighting and us in our underwear, like, we'd be like the number one gay podcast in the world. But we don't. And I think that that. That does.
That says a lot as well.
[00:09:50] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:09:51] Speaker A: Not just in the game world, but in the world, but especially in the gay world.
[00:09:54] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That brings up anger and sadness for me that we live in a culture that is like that, truly. And I get it. Like, I. I have physical attraction, too. I. You know, so it's not. I'm not saying it's, like, something that we should take away, but it's. Wait, I feel like we need to add in, like, add in other stuff too. Like, you know, I wish you could.
[00:10:14] Speaker A: Just start without the bait and switch. Like, it just be like, hey, this is what I have to offer. Authenticity, courage, deeper conversations. Like, start there. Not, like, I don't have to, like, lure you in with, like, a body. But, yeah, that's. That's the world we live. And I think. I think that stirs up anger. And the other thing that I know stirred up anger is the fact that, yeah, these are all pretty, like, the pretty privilege of it all. Because they're athletes and they're hockey players and they're young.
And so some people were, again, really upset that it's just another show about hot guys.
[00:10:42] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:10:43] Speaker A: Which I get. But they're hockey players, so you kind of. I gave it a bit of a pass. Only because of it. It was a plot. They weren't depict. They weren't Trying to depict regular Joe Blow. Guys, it's about hockey players.
[00:10:53] Speaker B: Yeah. Interesting.
I heard about it on my gay hockey team. They were all talking about it in the. In the dressing room, and I was like, what? What's that? And I just thought it was just kind of like this Canadian, like, whatever show. Like, it's not going to gain any traction. Then it started getting so much popularity, I was like, oh, okay, this is interesting.
[00:11:10] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, I kind of did the same thing. Like, why. Why is it so popular? What has been your take on just gay TV shows and gay movies in general? Like, do you think that we've done a pretty good job with representing gay culture in the last 10 years or.
[00:11:23] Speaker B: No, I would say somewhat like Brokeback Mountain was my very first show that I ever watched. Which. Which, that. For me, it's very similar, actually. Now you think about it, one's just cowboy and one's hockey, but the premise is very similar. It's discreet, at least. Again, I've only seen one episode, whereas Broken Mountain, I saw the whole movie, but they didn't get to fall in love. Right. And then it was a tragic ending and stuff like that. That. That movie really captivated me.
But spoiler alert. That was my. That's my ultimate favorite.
Do you remember. Do. Have you seen that?
[00:11:55] Speaker A: No.
[00:11:55] Speaker B: With Jim Parsons and can't remember, but the one dies of cancer. It's. I don't know. It's just. It's a very emotional show. It's really. Yeah, it's really good.
[00:12:06] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, I thought you were saying spoiler alert to the pro quagmund, but spoiler alert. This. Hopefully people will still watch it, even though we're talking about it. But, I mean, spoiler alert.
There are a lot of positive depictions in the show as you go through it, and I think that's something that I personally enjoyed as well, because we see so much heartbreak and so much.
I mean, not that it's all positive there. There is negative as well, but we see so much heartbreak and not happy endings. And it's nice to kind of see something a bit more realistic in that it does not end in, like, tragedy.
[00:12:44] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm excited to watch the other. The other five episodes. And.
Yeah, yeah. See what it does.
[00:12:53] Speaker A: For me, I think that the other piece of it is coming out for a lot of people who are in the closet for whatever reason you're in the closet. It does show, I think.
[00:13:04] Speaker B: Why.
[00:13:05] Speaker A: And a little bit gives you a little bit of insight as to why, because, I mean, Especially in western culture, there's a lot of, I think, shame for people who are still in the closet or who maybe took, took a while to come out or if they came out and later in life, like they're, There's a lot of shame around that. Like, oh, I shouldn't have done that, or I don't need to do that, or I'm, I'm afraid. And, and I think this does a really good job of normalizing it and being like, hey, there are some really good reasons why people stay in the closet and that's nothing to be ashamed of. You come out when you come out, if you, you want to come out.
[00:13:32] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I like that. I like that. I'm, I'm curious to know the cultural impact that this show is going to have on. Yeah. Gay athletes that are, are still closeted.
Do you.
[00:13:45] Speaker A: Your hockey league, did you say was a gay hockey league?
[00:13:48] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:13:48] Speaker A: Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what was your experience of that when you were playing hockey when you were younger in like a non gay league?
[00:13:56] Speaker B: Yeah, I, There was always an anxiety.
Like it's, it's a hyper vigilance. It's. I think it's no different if you're in a lock or a hockey locker room or at school or wherever. Right. It's going to be the same feeling of like, oh, like you're looking around, you can see guys you're attracted to or.
Right. Like there's just those, those feelings. But when I was probably 20, in my 20s, I played on all straight teams. I never started the gay league in Calgary until probably like late 20s, like maybe 29, something like that. 28 or 29. So before that, from 20 to 28, I was playing on straight teams and I, I was out to the guys and would tell them and it would change how they would show up though. Like they would make sure to like, not the shower when I was in there, or they would like be really discreet. They would have their towel, they would pull their boxers up like while their towel was over them, like just stuff like that. Whereas before, you know, they might have not done that, but they. I remember in the dressing room one time there, someone said like, Matt, you're really attractive. You must get a lot of. And I said, what did I say? I was like, I can't remember, but I, I had a clever comeback and I just said, yeah, I'm gay. And just like the whole energy in the room just completely shifted.
[00:15:16] Speaker A: Right.
[00:15:16] Speaker B: Like as an path I can just feel everyone's like, oh, and but then they were all like, oh, that's fine. Like, we don't care. Right. Like the kind of. The whole thing. But then it does change things. You know what I mean? Like, the locker room does change once they know that somebody in there might possibly be attracted to them.
[00:15:31] Speaker A: So homophobia is alive and well still. It's just a little bit more subtle. And even though people say the right words out loud, I think their attitudes shift at a much, much slower rate. Yeah. Because I think they know that they. And I mean, even these days, haters are emboldened. But that's another. I think that's another great thing about the show is love it or hate it, people are talking about gays and gay love and gay sex and the fact that it's even talked about, in my opinion, like, we're here, we're not going anywhere. So keep talking about the show, whether you love it or hate. I think it's great for the LGBTQ community.
[00:16:07] Speaker B: Yeah. A good example of that is so on YouTube. I follow a lot of channels that are hockey channels for the NHL, for hockey teams, and there's been a handful of them that have done reviews of. And there's one channel, the guy's totally straight, and he's done a review of every episode, all six episodes. He. He reviewed it. And I was like. I was shocked. I'm like, I've been following this guy forever, and he's got, like, so much bro, like, all in the comments, all the bros and stuff like that. And I was like, good for you. Like, good for this guy for doing that. And his. His episodes or his reviews got, like, you know, in the 30,000 plus viewings and stuff like that. And there was a lot of comments in there that were supportive of him doing that, but then a lot of people were like, obviously, like, why the hell are you talking about this gay show? And stuff like that.
[00:16:53] Speaker A: And so that's another thing is. Is that fantasy of, you know, the mask, quote, unquote, mask, athletic guy. And, like, so. So many of us either had that fantasy or still do.
Like, you know, the jocks I talk about all the time. When I was in school, I was always into the Jo.
And so this, again, catnip, just like, oh, my gosh. This is. This is like porn played out, but, like, emotional and. And sexual porn played out.
[00:17:20] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:17:20] Speaker A: For a lot of people. And I think that in. In our culture, I think it's great because it's kind of, in your example, like, gay guys and the straight bro, hockey bros now have like this thing that we have in common, that we had nothing in common before TV show has kind of brought us together and that's such a good example. And I think that's a good thing. I think it, again, just opening up a dialogue is, Is a win always for me.
[00:17:41] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I agree.
I agree.
So, yeah, we'll have to maybe talk about this after I've watched it.
[00:17:49] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And, and if you're out there listening, when I did the poll on my Instagram, which I know is very scientific, I think 75 had either watched it or were in progress. 75% were either watched it or in progress of watching it. And then the other 25% had not watched it yet.
[00:18:06] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:18:07] Speaker A: So a lot I think, and probably more as we go. But anytime you, you watch this, whether you like it or not, you have to ask the question, why is it having that impact if I love it? Why? What makes me love it? Is it, is it, is it, is it a fantasy that's being fulfilled, as I was saying? Or if you hate it, why, why do you hate it? What's going on there? And if it has no impact, then ask yourself the question. Like I had asked Matt, what kind of story, specifically, what kind of gay love story would captivate you, would interest you? So Matt had said something with a bit more emotion and depth right from the jump would be more captivating to him.
[00:18:43] Speaker B: Yeah. Or yeah. Like where the clothes are on and you're starting to get to know each other and like, you know, like there's like eye contact, a lot of that. And then the clothes can come off after.
[00:18:54] Speaker A: Right.
[00:18:54] Speaker B: But it's like, it's always with gay men, the clothes come off first and then the stuff's built after. I'd love to see a love story where it's like, you know, it's, it's, yeah, like, and people are like, that's so heteronormative or whatever. But I'm like, that's what I like. I like where there's a knowingness and you can actually, you feel the emotions of the characters and then they get to kind of bring that together in a sexual scene or something. Like that's really what would captivate me.
[00:19:19] Speaker A: Yeah. So. So ask yourself that question the way and answer the way it kind of matches it. I think for me it's one of the fantasies is the opposite way where you have the ha. Hookup with a guy and it's just supposed to be a one time thing or just a hot thing that happens like in A locker room. The fantasy of like, what if, what if that becomes something.
Yeah, right. And so I tend to have those experiences, like more casual experiences. And yeah, like sometimes they would be nice. Like, oh, that was so fun. I would love to see him again. Or I wish this was more. I wish this wasn't just a one time under the radar, discrete DL thing that we did.
And the show kind of gives you that story.
[00:19:55] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And maybe that's why a lot of people were triggered by the show is because they've had a lot of experiences where hookups turned into nothing and they wanted more and they didn't get it and it left them feeling empty. And there's a lot of that story in our community.
[00:20:09] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, for sure. Yeah. That's ultimately my. My thesis on it is just a fantasy. It gives us a really well done fantasy of the things that we long for and don't have in so many ways. Even. Even coming out stories, beautiful coming out stories that are dramatic and sweep.
[00:20:27] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:20:29] Speaker A: Happy endings.
[00:20:30] Speaker B: I gotta find somebody with crave now.
[00:20:32] Speaker A: Hey, if you were here, I have crave. You. You could. Yeah, we could binge watch it. We could even like do reaction videos of Matt watching it for the first time.
[00:20:39] Speaker B: I refuse to pay all these subscription companies. It's just so pathetic. Like you got it. And then they pass them back and forth. So then you have to buy this one and that one. I'm like, no, I have Amazon because I have Amazon prime for free shipping and I have Disney plus because my nephew comes over and watches it. That's it.
[00:20:56] Speaker A: It's gonna happen. Someone in Calgary is gonna have craven message you and be like, hey, guess what? I have crave. Wanna come over and watch it?
Okay. So instead of, you know, getting into opinion wars on whether the show is right or wrong or good or bad, you know what? What we want you to get out of this episode is use the show as an opportunity to get curious and self reflection. The prompts that I have for our listeners are why did you have the reaction you had?
If you loved it, what need did it touch that maybe feels unmet in your life?
If you just didn't get into it, then what kind of story does captivate you? And again, not about right or wrong, good or bad. And it's not about whether the show is good or bad. It's really just a window into deeper reflection for yourself.
[00:21:40] Speaker B: Yeah, I like that.
[00:21:42] Speaker A: Anything else you want to add, Matt? No.
[00:21:44] Speaker B: I'm sure I'll have things to add as I. As I watch it. So.
[00:21:47] Speaker A: All right. We might have to do a repeat after this.
[00:21:50] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Part two.
[00:21:52] Speaker A: All right, guys, thank you for joining us on this episode. Remember that you can join us in any of our events. Please go to the www.gaiman'sbrotherhood.com. there's an events page there. You can join us in one of our connection circles. You could also learn about our coaching collection and different events we've got going on and different groups we've got. So all of the info is in the show notes. And please, if you want to continue hearing this kind of content and getting access to episodes early, please support the show. And you can also get access to early episodes on Apple Podcasts. All right, we'll see you next week. Bye.
