When To Get Off the Apps (And When to Go Back On)

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. Welcome to Gay Men Going Deeper, a podcast by the Gay Men's Brotherhood that showcases raw and real conversations about personal development, mental health, and sexuality from an unapologetically gay perspective. I'm your host, Michael Diorio, and joining me today is the lovely Matt Lancidal. [00:00:23] Speaker B: Hey, guys. [00:00:24] Speaker A: Today, guys, we are talking about our favorite on again, off again relationship dating apps. Okay, so the backstory here is I was off Grindr for about five months, and this was not the first time I've taken a hiatus from Grindr. I've been a user of that app since, like, 2011, and it's been on again, off again, I think, for a lot of folks. And just a few weeks ago, I decided I'm going to go back on Grindr. So it made me think. We talk a lot about deleting apps, but we don't really talk enough about knowing when to go back on. And I think that that's important because, yes, getting off the apps can be healthy, but getting back on the apps can also healthy. And so the real skill is knowing the difference between using the apps intentionally and using them compulsively. And why I wanted to have this conversation with Matt is because it was funny how when I was off the app he was on, so we. We kind of had this opposite flip flop season for a moment there. So I went off the app, he went on, and then he. He had joined. And so we haven't really had a chance to talk about what would, like why that is and what. What. What was his motivation for getting on was my motivation for getting off. So that's what we're going to talk about today. We want to talk about in general that on again, off again cycle, which I think a lot of you all can relate to because it's not just us, for sure. I call that app seasonality. I think it's a really good term for it because there are seasons. I'm not talking about, like, nature seasons, but seasons of our lives when apps are useful and then seasons when perhaps they're not. And so we don't need to look at apps in an absolutist, permanent, yes, no kind of way. I think that it's a tool that either fits the season you're in or not. Okay, I know that in my intro here, I just talked a lot about Grindr, because that's the one that I'm talking about. But, you know, it's not just about Grindr. It can be any app that you're using. Some of you use a few, but Just, just think about apps in general, even though our experience might be with ones that you don't use. Okay. All right. So my first question is for Matt. We're all dying to know. Why did you end up deciding to join Grindr? [00:02:20] Speaker B: So I was off GRINDR for almost 10 years. [00:02:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:02:23] Speaker B: And Scruff or any of those, any of the hookup apps. I. So there's for me, there's dating apps and then there's hookup apps. Those are the two distinctions that I have. So Tinder, Bumble, Hinge, where it's a little bit more delayed, less impulsive, less sex oriented. Those would be dating apps for me. And then hookup apps would be like Grindr and Scruff. I'm not saying that you can't find either or on each app, but I think the intention of those apps is pretty clear. [00:02:45] Speaker A: Right. [00:02:46] Speaker B: So why did I decide to go back on. I think a lot of it is the supply. The supply on the dating apps is not. There's not a lot. Right. I find every gay guy is on Grindr pretty much. Right. Not all, but a lot of guys are on Grindr, but only certain. There's only a certain pool of guys that are going to be on like Tinder or Hinge or Bumble. So yeah, I wanted to widen out my. And then part of me was also just curious to see what it would feel like because I do think it can be therapeutic being on the apps. It's not necessarily a bad thing to be on the apps because we can get a lot of data about ourselves. Right. Like, how judgmental am I? You want to know how judgmental you are? Go on the apps and, and check out and you'll, you'll know quickly how much judgment you have inside of you. So yeah, for me it was, there was some personal development piece to it. And then there was also I wanted to increase my odds of, of, of meeting somebody. And then some of it too was around sexual stuff because in those 10 years I had went from probably I would describe myself as more sexually compulsive, hypersexual, not needing emotional connection at all in my connect. In my sexual connections, demisexual in that ten year period. So I wanted to almost go back in and see like, okay, like how am I feeling about, you know, these sorts of things. So it was, it was a bit of an experiment for me. Yeah. [00:04:05] Speaker A: Are you slong render these days? [00:04:06] Speaker B: Yeah. So. But it's interesting because you just. And we. So to the audience, like Michael and I have no, like, previous indication of this Stuff. So just in the last probably week or so, I've been contemplating deleting them again. Because I'm like, this is not serving me. It's actually creating like a feeling of hopelessness. Like, I'm like, oh, this is just not. These are not my people. The people on Grindr are not my people. And I've had to come to that realization that it might be harder for me to find a person that I'm looking for outside of Grindr because it's less. The pool, smaller. But the quality of the men that I'm looking for at least are not going to be typically on an app light Grinder. Yeah. [00:04:42] Speaker A: Or if they are, they might not be presenting in that light that you're going to notice them. Yeah, right. Like, I think there are a lot of great guys on Grindr. I don't think necessarily are always in that headspace. More on that app particular. Sometimes, like when you're on the app, like, it flicks that part of your brain off depending on how you use it. I'm not. I'm not saying this is everyone, but I have actually met some great guys on Hinge and then like we actually chatted on Grindr. I'm like, whoa. Like, I would have had no idea. Cause I remember your profile on Grindr and that is not what I would have suspected from your profile. And Edge. Very different things. And that's fine. But I think they're there. Maybe we're just not leading with that part of us that maybe wants what you're looking for. [00:05:18] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. But I. I also think for me, that's a bit of a yellow flag because I would want somebody that's congruent between the two places. Like, the way I represent myself on both apps is the same. I almost have the same write up. I have the same photos. Like, I don't have like a sexy shirtless photo or anything like that. Like, so I think, you know, the type of guy that I'm looking for would probably be similar to me, like more demisexual, more highly sensitive. And I just find Grindr is not a good place for guys like us. I just. [00:05:45] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I get that. I. My profile is slightly different. I mean, obviously it's me. Like, I think some of the photos might overlap, but I. On Hinge, I don't have any. I don't think I have any shirtless photos at all. And then on Grindr, I do. I have some sexy photos on Grindr as well as the other one. So. You would say, oh yeah, I recognize this photo from Hinge and my profile write up is. Is a bit different. Not to say that they're not one of them is not authentic. I think they're both a typical Michael faction. They're. They're both. They're both me. Depending on what I'm looking for, what I want. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So when you were on or are on, let's say Grindr, because this is the one I have the most experience with. What. What are you usually looking for when you kind of reach for the phone and you open the app? [00:06:22] Speaker B: Yeah, I was. This was. This was really eye opening for me to like explore this because the intentionality or the motivation behind why I'm using the apps, it can vary. So I have days where I am seeking relief from loneliness and then I have days where I am seeking connection. That's. Those are two very different things. I know they sound like the same thing, but they're very different. For like when I'm seeking relief from loneliness, I. There's a desperation. There's like a. I don't want to feel this way. There's an escaping of myself. There's. Someone has to save me from myself. Almost like there's that kind of. That really. It's an anxious thing. It's a nervous system thing. My nervous system is looking for a way to regulate itself outside of myself. [00:07:03] Speaker A: Right. [00:07:03] Speaker B: And then when I'm seeking connection, I'm more grounded. But it's interesting because I would say for me, the distinction is this. If I'm opening Grindr, there's a part of me that's like, that has a bit of. I'm wanting more sexual energy. Like I'm kind of feeling into that. Whereas if I'm opening the other apps, I feel more connected into myself. Like when I'm. When I'm on Hinge or Tinder, I feel like I. It's a different energy than if I'm on Grindr, both in the energy I'm bringing in, but also the energy it creates and makes me feel when I'm on the app. So, like, I think there's something different in like a window, one window and you're swiping versus a bunch of these windows and all. It's just so overstimulating when you're seeing all these photos and like so much different people and stuff like that. So it's. It can be overstimulating for me. [00:07:47] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's by design too. Like those apps. I know Hinge, I don't know so much about Tinder or Bumble, but I know Hinge is meant, like, they kind of want it to be that way where you are slowing down. I think they limit the amount of matches you have, so you can't be chatting with, like, 25 people at once. Yeah. Or as things like a grinder or a scruff or even a Sniffies. Yeah. By design, it's like, here are all your options. So it kind of lends to that. Oh, there's always another one. There's. There's always something else. There's like. It's like kind of gambling. Like, let me try one more. Let me try one more. Let's see who else. Yeah. And it becomes very good. [00:08:15] Speaker B: Refreshes, Refresh, refresh, refresh. [00:08:18] Speaker A: And that's how you end up on there for hours. And it's compulsive, and it's designed that way. They want to keep you on those apps. And I think that's a really good point about the distinction. You know, you kind of alluded to it a bit there, but let's go deeper there. Compulsivity versus intentionality. That when I. When I do any kind of coaching on this, that is the number one thing we get to like, is this a compulsive thing? Are you being pulled into it or are you intentionally choosing it? Like, is the app pulling you in so it has the power, or are you intentionally choosing it where you have the power? That's the difference that I would say is between compulsivity and intentionality. What do you think? [00:08:53] Speaker B: Yeah, sorry, what was the question? [00:08:55] Speaker A: Like, what do you think is the difference for you between intentionality and compulsivity? Like, how do you know when you're being intentional versus when it's more compulsive? [00:09:02] Speaker B: Yeah, I think loneliness, like, when I'm. When there's a. When there's a negative emotion that's fueling my desire and my search, that's going to lead more to compulsion versus when I'm feeling centered and I'm feeling like, oh, I. I just. I want connection. [00:09:16] Speaker A: Right. Like, I'm. [00:09:16] Speaker B: I'm. I'm whole here as I am, and I'm feeling regulated, but I just want connection. Right. And the type of the. The. The mat that meets somebody from a place of wholeness and already connected to himself is very, very different than the mat that would reach out to somebody when I'm feeling depressed or lonely or disconnected or. Or if I had just experienced previous rejection. [00:09:38] Speaker A: Right. [00:09:39] Speaker B: And then I go back on the app straight Away, like, to try and soothe myself. It's like, okay, we're coming at it from a very different place. And let's be honest, like, rejection is around every corner in gay dating. It's like, you could be the hottest guy ever and you're still going to experience rejection. It doesn't matter. Like, rejection is a part of gay dating and gay and just dating in general. So what do we do after we get rejected? [00:10:00] Speaker A: Right. [00:10:00] Speaker B: Do we open the apps right away again and start to regulate ourselves with scrolling and. And messaging? Like, because if we do do that, we need to actually. We're not developing the skill or the muscle of learning how to be with shame as id. Like, essentially, that's really what rejection brings up for a lot of us is shame. So if we're always mitigating our shame triggers with avoidance or compulsively scrolling, then we're not going to actually develop capacity to hold one of the most prominent experiences that we'll have as gay men, which is rejection. Right? [00:10:29] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And that way, you know, being on the apps can be a great opportunity for your own personal growth and development. If you go in with that mindset. [00:10:38] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:10:39] Speaker A: Like, being very intentional, like, you, you know you're going to get in there and get rejected. Can I get blocked? I know that's going to happen. Sometimes, you know, I share the album and I'm like, hold my breath. Like, am I going to get blocked? Right. And sometimes it is like, the profile disappears. I'm like, okay, cool, that was nice. Thanks. Thanks a lot. But it isn't a good opportunity for you, if you're feeling. If you're feeling capable, if you're feeling like you can, to do that work and really sit with those feelings of whatever. Rejection, Inadequacy. Yeah, yeah. That can be really. But it can be really good work for you to do because otherwise we're just talking about it. When you're on an app like that, it really brings it home into real time and you actually feel the dead weight. Rejection. [00:11:17] Speaker B: Yeah, it's heavy. Do you pay for Grindr? Yeah. [00:11:20] Speaker A: I cannot stand ads, and I'm happy to pay for not having ads. I. I've been, like, I said, I've been on this app since, like 2011, and it has gotten progressively worse with ads. I remember back in the good old days, there was no ads. It was just nice free app with no ads. And yeah, yeah, now I pay. [00:11:34] Speaker B: Yeah, it's awful. I don't pay and it's awful. So what they do is they. They behind the paywall is. So I kind of noticed this. Like, you look at the extra, it says extra. And then beyond that is all the guys that are being tapped on a lot. So the app can track. It has an algorithm that can track when who's getting tapped more right? In scruff. It's like, who's getting woofed more or whatever. So they know these are like what we call. They call them like the premium profiles that are going to lure people in. So they put those behind the paywall. So if you look and watch, right, Whether if, like, I think you, you know, if you pay for extra, you'd be able to see this under unlimited, right? But if you pay for the whole thing, it's going to just open and open up all the gates. But because, like, the guys that I would say, like, are probably getting tapped a lot that are the most conventionally attractive on the app, they're always going to be behind that. Also, I'm like, I see how sneaky they are and they've like, that's one of the reasons why I wanted to delete it. I'm just like, I don't want to be a part of an app that's like this. You know what I mean? It's like they're. They're encouraging us to objectify each other. And. And it's. It's almost like a. Instead of we. Instead of us learning how to build intimacy, we're learning how to consume each other. [00:12:42] Speaker A: Right? [00:12:43] Speaker B: And that's something I just, Ethically, I have a real hard time with that because our culture is already so good at consumption of each other. Like, I just think I want to be part of a culture that is helping, like, build intimacy. You know what I mean? So I know there's people that listen to this, and I know there are people in our community that are wanting to build apps that are not like Grindr, that are the opposite. So I strongly encourage guys that are app developers to wanting to build something that has a little bit more substance than app, like Grindr Segue. [00:13:10] Speaker A: Let's talk about when it's time to take a hiatus, as I call them, or a break or to delete it, whatever that is. So I could talk about my. My experience. Yeah, I know it's time to take a hiatus when everything you just said, when I start to feel really frustrated, when I start to get down and pessimistic and my. I don't. I don't leave that app feeling better or in fact, I feel substantially worse. That's how I Know, it could also be when I'm looking for a more, you know, intentional, let's say dating. If I'm looking for dates, and I'll. I'll say I don't really. I mean, I can find dates on Render. I absolutely have. I'm not saying that none of this conversation, by the way, is. Is. Is about that you can find anything anywhere, but I'm more likely to find what I want to find on Hinge. And when that's the case, then I will just stick with Hinge and not have Grindr. Also, when I want to spend less time on my phone in general, this is kind of a entire app hygiene thing, not just dating apps, but in general, I will delete a whole bunch of apps from my phone, including things like Facebook messenger, whatever. But I go through those areas where I'm like, I just don't want to be on my phone. I'm on my phone too much. And so Grindr's the first one to go. Don't need this one. When I've noticed it feels like a crutch or I'm doing it compulsively. Going back to our previous chat here. So compulsively, to me, means it's on my phone just all the time. Even when I'm just watching tv, cooking, walking, going to the gym. It's just always there just in case. Just in case. Just in case, right? [00:14:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:14:33] Speaker A: And so that, to me, is that, for me, is a personal, like, yellow flow. Like. Like, I don't really need to be on it. I'm just kind of on it because it's there that I don't love. And then lastly, I usually get to a point where it turns into more fantasy than action. So sometimes I just enjoy the chatting, the sex, the. The hope, the sharing the photos. But, like, when. When the guy's like, oh, hey, do you want to meet? Like, I should say, yeah, I do want to meet. Like, maybe not now, but, like, tomorrow or the next day or something. But when I find myself saying, yeah, no, not really, then I'm like, michael, why are you here? What are you doing? Like, what. What are we doing here? So those are kind of the signs for me that I. That I. It's time to take a break in a hiatus. Or sometimes if I have a really busy season of my life coming up, like, where I know I want to focus on work or I want to focus on something else, like, maybe I'm dating somebody, and I really want to see how that goes. I will. I will delete it for those reasons. So it really depends. Like I said, it is a seasonality. And I am very intentional with what is my outlook for my life in the next month or two. And does Grindr fit in? Yes or no? [00:15:32] Speaker B: I'm curious, from your perspective, what would you say a screen time number in hours would be that would start to lead into. Maybe you're. You're on Grindr too much or compulsive with it? [00:15:43] Speaker A: Let's see. I can tell you when I use it. I use it at night for sure. So if I'm by myself, if I'm watching a movie or watching tv, that kind of the end of my day, I'll pop on Grindr. As I said, I'll kind of watch TV with me. So that's maybe a couple hours right there. So I can just say anything over two. I don't use it during. Well, I do use it during the day sometimes, but I don't. I'm not on it a lot during the day. I have my notifications off so that when I get messages. That's another thing. If. If I get messages during the day and it's someone that I remember chatting with or someone I was looking forward to chatting with, like, oh, let's see what he said, and I'll jump in. So another kind of thing that I can do is just turn the notifications off so that I'm not lured into the app. I just go in when I want to go in. So I think anything over two hours for me was probably. But, like, I'd question that on. On a weekday, weekends, more. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:16:27] Speaker B: I like this notion of seasonality because I'm. I'm thinking for myself. I'm like, but mine actually coincides with nature. You said at the beginning you're not talking about nature. Mine kind of does, because right now we're recording this in. In May. Right. And it's like spring and it's mating season. And so my libido tends to be a bit higher during these times. And then leading into summer, it's higher as well. [00:16:46] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:16:47] Speaker B: Peak of winter, my libido is not as strong. Right. So I do kind of work with the seasons. Maybe not everyone's like that, but so perhaps during peak. Peak seasons, your numbers might be higher. Your screen times numbers might be higher. Right. [00:16:59] Speaker A: So morning to my man. That's why I went back on as well. I was like, you know what? I could just. I could use some of that. One more thing I didn't say is actually when. When I'm at home. Like, in my neighborhood, I find Grindr, after a while can get very boring because I've already chatted with everyone or it's the same old profiles over and over again and eventually just was like, yeah, this isn't fun. It's not really. It legit is boring versus traveling or going somewhere new. Then Grinder, like my best friend, especially as a solo traveler, I have met so many amazing friends overseas on Grindr, and it has not even been necessarily for sex. It has legit just been, hey, let me show you around, or let's go to the bar. Let me take you to this restaurant. So many great guys that way. And yes, also fun. So for me, being at home, I'm less inclined to. Sorry, I should rephrase. Being at home, I'm more likely to get to the point where I get bored of it. Whereas when I'm traveling, it really is a lovely travel companion. [00:17:50] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And I. I would agree with that. I find dating apps, I wonder what we're bringing in. What are we bringing in that's different when we're traveling versus when we're. Because there's an energy that I think people that are traveling bring into those apps that it's like, I don't know, is it a curiosity versus, like, a compulsion? Like, oh, I'm curious. I want to meet people, I want to have experiences versus it being like, I need relief from horniness or I need relief from loneliness or whatever. It's like, is there a different way that we can approach the apps that will feel more like. Like it is when we're traveling. [00:18:20] Speaker A: Right. I mean, I think it's a couple things. One, yes, what you said, like, when. When I'm in that space, I legit do want to meet people. I don't just want to sit there and scroll. I'm watching a movie like I do at home. I am like, I'm here, I'm alone. I'm in this new city. I want to know where to go. I want to know the places to be. I want to know the bars to go, and I want to know the areas. Like, I want someone to say, hey, let's go for a walk, or let me show you around. Right? And when I go on Grindr and I'm traveling, I will say, solo traveler, tell me all the things hit me up. And people also like fresh meat, right? So as someone who gets a lot of visitors here, I live in the Village in Toronto. A lot of people come visit and they have things on their profiles saying, hey, I'm visiting from, you know, so and so. Yeah, I will be like, okay, you got to go here. You got to do this, you got to do that, you got to do this. And it's. I think people genuinely do want to help other gays have a good experience when they're traveling. I really do. That's been my experience. Anyway. [00:19:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:11] Speaker A: So there's a fresh meat component. I don't know if I said that. There's a fresh meat component. [00:19:13] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And fresh eyes, like, as the person that is the meat. It's like you're there and it's like everything's new and it's nice. So, yeah, it's a different experience for sure. [00:19:23] Speaker A: Let's talk about some other ways that apps can be. Some other situations or some other, you know, circumstances in which apps can be good, not just traveling. What are some other ones, do you think? [00:19:32] Speaker B: Like dating apps, you mean? [00:19:33] Speaker A: Yeah, dating apps hook up apps. Either way. Like, we just had a really good example there where they can be really useful when traveling solo. But I think they're good for other scenarios as well. [00:19:43] Speaker B: Yeah, like I said earlier, I think it's a good barometer test for where you're at, like, you know, getting out, putting yourself back into the dating app pool. It's like you can see, you know, how. How judgmental you are. That's right. It gives you awareness, self awareness. It allows you to kind of taste different people and experiences so you get more in, like, self inquiry around what your needs are and what you like. So it can help you study yourself better. I can't. I don't know. Other than. Yeah. Finding. Finding love. [00:20:14] Speaker A: That's. [00:20:15] Speaker B: That's my hope. I want to find love. Yeah. [00:20:18] Speaker A: I think that there are a lot of guys who want that as well. And you. You made the point earlier, Matt, about supply. I think when we treat apps like a search engine, like a Google, there is a lot of supply there now. Yeah, you're gonna have to go through a lot of not great options sometimes. But if you're prepared for that and you can emotionally, mentally handle that, that there's gonna be a lot of rejection on both sides. You're gonna be saying no a lot. You're gonna be told no a lot as well. But it is a great place for supply, especially for those guys who live in places that might be rural. Rural or a small town who don't have gay bars or gay dodgeball or gay hiking groups to go to apps for. A lot of them are really their only real access Point to things like sex, dating, community, flirting, even friendship. Not to say that you're. Again, you're not always gonna find the kinds of guys you want, maybe the caliber that you're looking for, but it is sometimes the only supply people got. And so in that case, I think apps can be good. [00:21:15] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. Accessibility is huge. Right. If you. Even if you think about like life, Life before the apps to life after the apps, I. Our generation was that generation. Right. The generation above us didn't have. Right. Well, I guess they, they would. Yeah, sorry, I should take that back. They would get the experience, but maybe they were a bit older. So it's. Yeah, it's very different. Like we had to go to the gay bar and meet people and. Yeah. [00:21:40] Speaker A: So I'm very lucky I had that experience or I had to. I never choice. [00:21:43] Speaker B: Yeah, well, because that was fun. That's what, that's really what I want. But the thing is, is I don't drink and I'm. I'm not really a big bar guy, so it's like I wish there was more like coffee houses that hosted things because I would go to those sorts of things. So I kind of. I'm in this weird space that it's like I don't meet a lot of other gay men in organically in settings. [00:22:01] Speaker A: Right. [00:22:02] Speaker B: Because I don't. But I'm learning to more like playing hockey and different things like that. So. And yeah, I'm. I'm working on this. This is an area of my life that I'm working on right now. [00:22:11] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, Calgary is not a small city. There's things going on in Calgary. [00:22:14] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. Like we have gay everything. Like everything that Toronto has, we have gay everything. We just don't have like 10 of them. Right. [00:22:20] Speaker A: Like, yeah, we have a. [00:22:21] Speaker B: We have gay softball, gay dodgeball, gay bowling, gay, like all the stuff. You know what I mean? So it's like, it's all there. So it's a matter of me just accessing it and putting myself into it. Right. Hockey. I play on a gay hockey team. [00:22:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:22:33] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:22:34] Speaker A: You know, that's important. I think when, when we talk about dating and even just meeting, meeting gay guys in general, whether it's for dating or friendship or sex doesn't matter. I always like to focus on a two pronged approach. One is online and the other in person. I think they're both beneficial. They both have their pros and cons. They're not for everyone. You got to. You got to really decide who you Are and what one you want or a little bit of both. But I think it's. Personally, I do like having both. I like having the option for both. Again, depending on the season that I'm in, sometimes I'm feeling a lot less. A lot more introverted. And in those cases, apps tend to work better for me. If I'm not feeling, like winter, for example, you're not going to see me out very much. Yeah. So apps are great sometimes, if that's what I'm looking for. [00:23:15] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I like that. I have a question for you. What is. What's. How do you conduct yourself as far as the etiquette of when somebody messages you on the apps, do you respond? Like, if you're not interested, do you respond. [00:23:29] Speaker A: Well, if it's. If it's Tinder or if it's Hinge? Of course, because we would have matched. So I definitely respond. In fact, if I match it. No, I don't always respond. Yeah, it's too much. It's. It's too much. And that. That makes me feel overwhelmed sometimes. I'm like, oh, I have all this messages to get to, and if I'm not interested, I'm not interested. And I'm a firm believer on an app like Grindr or Scruff, no response is a response. [00:23:51] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:23:53] Speaker A: Because it's, It's. It's just too much. [00:23:55] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree. I agree. But what, what I think, you know, so I used to. I used to always respond to everybody because it was like a thing that I felt like I wanted to be kind, but then I was burnt out from it. Right. [00:24:04] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:24:06] Speaker B: So now I don't. But then there's this thing of like, okay, now if I go to, you know, this gay event and these guys are there that have messaged me and I never responded. It's like, I don't want people to think that I think I'm better than them or anything like that. [00:24:17] Speaker A: Right. [00:24:17] Speaker B: So there is all this under. And that's. That's the hardest thing about being an empath in the gay community is it's like I can feel the undercurrents of everything. So it's like I can feel tension in a room. And when you go into a gay room with all gay men, there's lots of tension in those rooms because you can feel like, you know, just people who got rejected by this person or this person slept with this person's boyfriend or whatever. So anyway, I just was curious how you. You conduct yourself in that. That sense. [00:24:43] Speaker A: I should also Clarify that. If it's a hey, I don't respond. If hey. I look at their profile, my go, not interested. I don't respond if someone's like, hey, Michael, or whatever. They don't know my name necessarily. I love your profile. This looks really cool. How's your day today? Like, if they. If they send me something with meat on it in the first response, even if I'm not interested, I will at least honor the fact that they said more than hey or hi. And I'll. I'll engage with them a bit, knowing that, like, I'm not gonna lead them on or anything. But I'll, you know, say, not looking or sorry, not my type, but. But thank you and whatever. [00:25:18] Speaker B: Yeah, that's good that you're clear. [00:25:20] Speaker A: But most guys don't say that. Mostly with a hey. [00:25:22] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Or sup or into or yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:25:26] Speaker A: And if. If they say, if they start with that and I'm into them, I will reply with what I'm into. But if I'm not, then I'm like, I don't need to. So it really depends on the level of effort that they put in at first. I will match that. If it was very little effort, then I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna give you this big, long. Sorry, I'm not interested. Explanation of all you said is hey, yeah, right? [00:25:43] Speaker B: Grinder should have, like, a section that you can, like, like, go into that's like something more. Like, they can have, like, the typical Grinder, which is like, sex hookups. That's what you're looking for. Then they should have a something more because the apps already being so used and all the gays are on it, right? So to create another app, it's like, yeah, people get app fatigue. So it's like, if Grindr was smart, they would create a side that was, like, more relationship oriented and have it be a little bit more meaningful. You have to fill out certain things in your profile because. Kind of nice, right? It would give gaming the option to be like, oh, what am I actually looking for right now? Do I want just sex, or am I looking for something more? [00:26:18] Speaker A: Well, they. They took Sniffies and they built that into Grindr as an option, like the Right now feature. And so what you're saying is kind of like they take Hinge and they kind of build that as a subset into Grindr as well. Now, of course, they're gonna. They're gonna charge you for it. They're gonna make it like a hundred dollars a month. [00:26:31] Speaker B: Well, I would Pay for that. Because at least that then it weeds out the guys that I know are looking for similar things to me. [00:26:36] Speaker A: Right. So, yeah, maybe they will. [00:26:38] Speaker B: Maybe. Hopefully. [00:26:39] Speaker A: All right, let's answer. [00:26:40] Speaker B: You're listening. [00:26:41] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, get on it. Okay, let's answer the. The last question. The second part of the episode here is how do you know when you're ready to go back on? [00:26:49] Speaker B: You're no longer a grumpy. [00:26:52] Speaker A: Okay. [00:26:53] Speaker B: No, I think there's. If that's your reason for going off of it and you're frustrated and you're right. So that you've gone off and you've reconnected and plugged back into yourself. Right. You found your hobbies again. You've got friends or all these sorts of things. You're not just, like, finding you're drinking from this one. Well, I would say so, yeah. It's just. For me, it would be intentional. I would really. I would. I would have a new revived purpose for. And maybe clarity about what I'm looking for would be a big piece of it. [00:27:20] Speaker A: Yeah, I would second that. Exactly. And asking yourself, you know, my. My question of the episode is, what season are you in? When I went back on, it was exactly as you said. It's spring. I'm feeling more social. I'm going outside more. I'm more active. I'm just ready to, like, go engage with the world again after hibernating in the winter and really focusing on work. So I was like, yeah, I'm ready to do this. And, like, it had been five months, so part of me is like, who's new? There's probably some new folks in the. In the area. I want to see what's going on. So it's kind of a genuine place of curiosity and interest, and I do want to meet people. So if I do chat with somebody and they say, hey, let's meet up, I would say, yes. Or as maybe before, I'd be like, no, no, I don't really want to. And then that's my sign. So just being. Asking yourself, like, is this something that I can engage in without losing myself? Does this feel like a useful tool for me right now? Those are the kinds of questions. If you say yes to those, then that's maybe a sign that, okay, yeah, I. I can go back on. [00:28:13] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I like that. What are you looking to experience right now? And you can't say everything and anything. Like, what. What do you want to experience? Like, even just in this moment, like, if you're like, oh, I want to open the app. Like, what do you. What are you wanting to experience? [00:28:25] Speaker A: My gosh. Ideally, a super smoking hot guy who wants to a lot and also be in a relationship. [00:28:34] Speaker B: Okay. [00:28:35] Speaker A: And hang out with me and, like, come over and not waste a lot of time chatting and be like, oh, my gosh, you're so cute. I can't wait to get to know you. Let's get off this app, and I'm gonna come over and bring a pizza and wine and let's hang out tonight. [00:28:46] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:28:46] Speaker A: Boom. That's my fantasy. And then it comes over, we hang out and we cuddle, and he sleeps over, and I make him breakfast in the morning. Yeah. If that's you, please come over. How about you? Same question. [00:29:00] Speaker B: This is might be one of the reasons why I'm wanting to pull back, because I'm so conflicted. I have it. I have a day where I'm wanting a relationship, and I have another day where I'm just wanting sex. But I think what I'm actually wanting is something in between. Because. And that's why I'm confused, because sex, just sex is not enough for me, and a relationship feels like too much for me right now. I got a lot happening in my life, specifically right now, like, not just with work and stuff. I've got a lot of stuff happening, like a big transition in my life right now, and it's occupying a lot of my energy, so I don't feel like I could devote myself fully to a relationship. So something in between, which would be, like, a guy that I can hang out with, build connection with him and have safety and trust and have great sex. And if that connection leads into a relationship, I would be happy with that. But it would have to be a slow build. [00:29:44] Speaker A: Right? [00:29:45] Speaker B: So because, like, sex, just. Just sex for me, it's not enough for me to enjoy. Like, I need there to be something else. And I find you have two camps in the gay world. They're either wanting a relationship or they're wanting just sex. It's very hard to find the in between, at least for me, because if I start connecting with a guy and just have connection, I find they start developing feelings for me and they want to lock me down and be in a relationship. And then that makes me feel like that's not what I'm looking for right now. But then you have the other side, which is they just want sex and that. And they don't have a lot of capacity to build intimacy. [00:30:17] Speaker A: Right. [00:30:17] Speaker B: So that's why I looked the episode we did, which is like, friends with intimacy or sexual intimacy. Like that's really what I'm looking for. Like something that is like, yeah, come over, let's have dinner, let's hang out, let's spend some time together and have great sex as well. But we don't have to be like locking each other down right now. Like as in like I want you to be my monogamous partner right now. Do you know? Like so. Yeah, yeah. [00:30:39] Speaker A: I've said before that if I really like somebody, the tell is that I don't have sex with them on the first date. Yeah, yeah. Because the, what I'm thinking is this is not the only time we're going to see each other. So we got lots of time to do that. And it's a little bit of a test for myself sometimes because I've found that my own tendency sometimes could be to get ahead of myself sexually. And then I think a lot of guys do this. Once we get the nookie, we're like cool urge satisfied and we kind of throw the baby out with the bath water and there really could be something interesting there. But we just kind of. Sorry, I just kind of unfortunately skipped that part because we heard asx. So I've learned to slow that part down. If I do, I'll think in my mind like, is this somebody that I want to hang out with again? And if the answer is yes, genuinely, then I'm like, then I'm not going to have sex with them. Yeah, for now. [00:31:22] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I kind of have a similar rule. I think for me my, the first date is always just something super casual. Like a walk, like 30 minute walk. Just do we vibe. And I still consider that a first date. It's just like a very like almost like a meet and greet. And then I don't kiss on that date ever. It's just not something I would, I would do. And then the second date I would be open to just letting them a moment tell me. So would I have anal sex on the second date? Definitely not. Would I have like making out and maybe some moral sex? Sure. Like, do you know what I mean? So it's like I, yeah, I am progressive in the way that I like, I like to share my body with somebody. I think it, it's, it's smart to be intentional. [00:31:59] Speaker A: Like that intentionality is the key to this. Right. So you know, Matt and I are sharing our personal experiences based on where we're at now, based on our nervous systems, based on who we are and what we want. But for the viewers and listeners out There, Think about that for yourself, right? [00:32:13] Speaker B: Like, ask. [00:32:14] Speaker A: Ask these same questions, right? How. What is your ideal pace of connection? You know, are you like, Matt and. And you want to take things a bit slower, and you would like that slow burn, especially as it pertains to sex and sexual intimacy. Or are you okay having a hookup? And that's not going to throw you off your. It's not going to throw you off, right? Like, for me, a hookup is great. If I. If that's the space I'm in. Like, if it's late at night and I just want to get my rocks off. Yeah. If I pop on Grinder and find someone close by, great, that's fine. But I'm in that season. There are times where I'm not in that season, and I do that, and then I feel like shit after. And then like, okay, there was a mismatch. [00:32:48] Speaker B: I'm. [00:32:49] Speaker A: I'm not aligned with what I'm wanting, and my actions and my intentions or intentions are not aligned. [00:32:54] Speaker B: Yeah, Yeah, I agree. I think it's important for us to know who we are, and sometimes we only know who we are through trial and error. So you might do something. You might. And again, notice how your body feels after you do something. Like, whether it's. Doesn't matter what it is, just notice how you feel. If you feel like this doesn't feel good. [00:33:11] Speaker A: Right. [00:33:11] Speaker B: Listen to that, right? And start to inform your decisions based off of how your body is communicating to you. Because it's. Your body's always your little vessel of truth. It's letting you know what feels good and what doesn't. [00:33:22] Speaker A: So amen. And on the. And to bring that back to the apps in general, you know, a question you can ask yourself is looking at your needs for connection in general. Are apps currently enabling that or are they detracting from that? And if they're enabling or expanding and they're a useful tool because there's a lot of supply or for whatever other reason you like, then continue. Continue as you are. All good. If you find that they have become something that is detracting maybe from being too compulsive or you're just not able to handle all the bullshit that comes with it, then maybe it's time to take a break. And that doesn't mean that you're off forever, but sometimes it's a week, sometimes it's a few months, like me, sometimes it's 10 years, like Matt. But it's just knowing who you are and what you need and really giving yourself that. [00:34:05] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, I like that. [00:34:07] Speaker A: All right. Any last words, Matt? [00:34:08] Speaker B: No. This was good. Yeah. It's helpful for. Even for me to kind of get some perspective on myself and my intentions. Yeah. [00:34:15] Speaker A: Yeah. Guys, we didn't. We didn't know. Matt didn't know that this was. He knew that. He knew the topic, but he didn't know that this is where we're going to go today. So. Yeah, it is very good timing. [00:34:23] Speaker B: Yeah, it is good timing, as it always is with us. Yeah. Interesting synergy. [00:34:27] Speaker A: Okay, thank you, Matt. And thank you to our viewers and listeners for another episode. If you're watching us on YouTube, you can tap that thanks button to support the podcast the Gaiman's Brotherhood community. You can also subscribe to the early access app option on Apple Podcasts to gain access to episodes before they are available to the public. All of your support helps us to continue making content for you and supporting our community. So we thank you in advance. And one more thing, guys, we are still running our connection circles twice a month, so please go to gaymansbrotherhood.com and check out the event section to see the topics and the dates to join us there. All right, have a good one. Bye. Bye.