Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
Welcome to Gay Men Going Deeper, a podcast by the Gay Men's Brotherhood that showcases raw and real conversations about personal development, mental health and sexuality from an unapologetically gay perspective. I'm your host, Michael DiIorio, and joining me today is Matt Blanc. Before we jump into today's episode, guys, we're doing something a little new today, and I want to just give you a brief explanation of what's going on. We are going to try out a shorter, more organic conversation where Matt and I pick a topic that feels alive for us in the moment, and we're just going to talk about it without any outline or agenda or preset questions like we normally do. So it's still Gay Men going deeper. We're still gay men. We're still going deeper. But maybe you can consider these shorter episodes, you know, just the tip, if that helps. You're still going to get our regular episode deep dives with Reno and with Matt and I. So that's still happening. Don't worry. We just want to give you guys a little more of a spontaneous combo where you get a bit more of a behind the scenes of our work and our lives. So that's what we're doing today.
All right, let's get into it. Our very first topic, I wanted to talk about gay labels. If we use them, why or why not? And unpacking our overall thoughts on this. I think it's an obsession that sometimes we have with gay labels and how they impact our identity, dating, confidence, and sexuality.
So first burning question for you, Matt.
What gay labels do you identify with either previously, historically, or today, if any gay labels?
[00:01:32] Speaker B: I would say I don't know, actually, because I don't really.
Don't really identify with many, now that I think about it. Are you talking about labels in the sense of identity or are you talking about labels in the sense of sexual preferences like these?
[00:01:46] Speaker A: Let's do identity. So things like daddies, jocks, bears, twinks, all of those things, there's so money now, like, those are the kind of. The main ones we can start with.
[00:01:56] Speaker B: That is mystic.
[00:01:58] Speaker A: It should be. It should be a more popular one, in my opinion.
[00:02:01] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I used to be a jock. I would say I used to see myself as a jock. And I really, I. I appreciated that. But I haven't really been jockey for the last six years. And I feel like, I don't know, maybe my. My identity is more like the spiritual one or the. The earth, earthy kind of guy, you know? Like, people always describe me as like a Bit more granola, those sorts of things. Definitely not bear, not daddy, not cub, not twink.
What's a twunk?
[00:02:31] Speaker A: It's like a hunky twink. Like, a twink is normally pretty slender, but twunk is a bit more muscular.
[00:02:36] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:02:38] Speaker A: Yeah.
And then there's the. The twas, which is a twink that is now older. And so he's a twas.
[00:02:45] Speaker B: A twas. Yeah. I would say probably those would be the ones I identify with, but again, I don't really identify with. With them as much. It's more. So I just kind of see myself as Matt now.
[00:02:55] Speaker A: Right.
[00:02:55] Speaker B: I kind of done a lot of work on shedding a lot of these labels because I found that they were, like, holding me back.
[00:03:01] Speaker A: Yeah.
That's interesting. I think a lot of people will say that the reason this. The reason I picked this topic is because we just had a. I do an alumni event every couple months with my former clients and former group participants, and we had an alumni session this last week, and we just kind of got into this topic about gay labels. And I, like, jotted it down. I'm like, oh, we need to talk about this. Because everyone got really fired up about.
Some people, like, you felt like it was holding them back and they didn't like it, and it just. They felt like they were put in a box. Other people really felt a sense of pride identifying with whatever label, like the bear community, for example, and that didn't give them any sense of feeling like it was in a box was like a label in a good way. Right.
[00:03:42] Speaker B: Yeah. And I agree. I think there's. There's pros and cons. If you think about when people say the gay community, I don't know if it's really a community. I think it's a population.
And then we create communities within the population. Right. So I'm not really a big fan. I know it's so mainstream that I have to use it because I'm not going to say the gay population, but it's. It really is more of just a population of people. It's millions and millions of people. And we all. So the labels is where we can start to subdivide and be like, yeah, I'm a bear, or I'm a this or I'm a that. I find so much benefit in labels like. And I've identified with, you know, things like neurodivergent or highly sensitive or empathic demisexual. Like, these are all the ones that I represent. But I've never really grabbed on to a lot of the ones around being gay because I feel like I've never. I guess jock, probably. But that doesn't necessarily have to just be within the gay spectrum. I think it could be anybody could see themselves as a jock if they were athletic or whatever. But. Yeah. I'm curious for you. What are the benefits? Well, actually, no, I want to know what you. What you identify with first.
[00:04:43] Speaker A: Probably jock as well. Although that's shocking for me to think.
[00:04:47] Speaker B: That I would ever be that.
[00:04:48] Speaker A: Like, if my little boy Michael heard this, like, yeah, right.
If anyone has seen me play sports, you know that I'm not a jock. But it's more so the look. The look that I would wear, like, the kinds of things I wear, wear sporty, sporty gear.
And yes, I do like to go to the gym. But yeah, I would say that one. And I would say lately I'm getting into my daddy, daddy vibe.
I mean, I'm 42, so I think I have earned that, at least in some ways. And I don't mind it. I think, you know, I, I. People call me daddy and like, yeah, bring it. Like, that doesn't. That doesn't make me feel any. Any which way. I kind of like it, actually. So those two probably. And then, you know, when I was younger, I would say the boy next door. I was always that, like, boy next door. Like, cute little preppy, Preppy Abercrombie guy. Yeah.
[00:05:32] Speaker B: Yeah, I can see that with you. I like that I'm. I'm usually attracted to boy next door kind of guys just, like, humble and, like, you know, they're not like, yeah, there's just the boy next door energy that I'm really drawn to. Or even kind of geeky. I've said that in previous episodes where I like geeky and freaky.
That's a really nice mix. A guy that's kind of geeky, you would never suspect that he would be, like, sexual and, like, have this prowess or this, you know, this energy, but yet he surprises you in the bedroom. I kind of. I kind of like that.
[00:06:00] Speaker A: Yeah, I love that as well.
And, you know, on apps, like, all the apps. Actually, I shouldn't say all the apps. Grindr for sure. I don't know what the other ones, but they do have that where you can, like, search, search, filter your grid by all these tags and labels. And there's so many more than the ones we've named here. There's tons.
[00:06:20] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:06:21] Speaker A: And, you know, I think that can be limiting. I don't do that personally. Like, I don't look for only jocks or only whatever. Whatever it is.
But I do think it. I do think in some ways it can be limiting. And I think. I think the answer, of course, is. Is both to that question.
Personally, to me, it does not limit me at all. But I think I get to choose my usage of labels and when they suit me, great. But if not, I don't get too fast. And even if people mis. Label me as something, I really don't care.
I'm like, sure, whatever you want to think.
[00:06:52] Speaker B: Yeah.
What makes somebody identify with labels? Do you think, do you think it's like, how they look or how they behave, their lifestyle? What are the things that make people say, oh, I'm a bear or I'm a whatever?
[00:07:05] Speaker A: Like, I think looks is the main thing because that's how we. We just look at somebody. We don't even know how they live or how they act necessarily, but we look at them and poof, we can kind of say, oh, you know, look at that bear over there. Like you know exactly what kind of person I'm talking about. Or look at that twink over there. Like, I don't even need to describe for you, you know, you know, the features. So I think that's the primary thing. And when it comes to, to those, like, main gay labels, and I think that, especially with the bear community, I'm going to say I'm not a bear. I'm. I'm speaking on behalf of y' all bears out there. Please, please let us know in the comments. But I think that they, first of all, when I have spent time, I have the most amazing time. They're super fun. They're very just. They're just a good time. And I think that there is a great sense of pride in the community. Like they, they have their own flag, they have their own colors, they have their own events, they have their own bars. And so I think, you know, shout out to all the bears out there. I think that they've done a really good job making a label work for them.
[00:07:58] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:07:58] Speaker A: In a positive way.
[00:07:59] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And it's a very inclusive. Well, I've never been in, in the community, but from the outside looking in, it's. It seemed like a very inclusive community. Yeah, yeah.
[00:08:12] Speaker A: Have you ever wanted to be part of a, like a label and just were part of a community or a subset and just felt like you couldn't, you know, you didn't belong?
[00:08:22] Speaker B: I think so. Not off the top of my head.
[00:08:23] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:08:24] Speaker B: No, I don't think so you.
[00:08:26] Speaker A: Yeah, jock.
I always talk.
[00:08:28] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, for sure.
[00:08:30] Speaker A: Because I had such a crush on them as a. As a kid, and I was like, oh, my God, I want to them, and I want to be them. Yeah. And then, you know, eventually, I guess. I guess I did it.
Check.
[00:08:40] Speaker B: What are the benefits from your opinion? What are the benefits of being or of labels?
[00:08:45] Speaker A: Well, you know, like. Like the bear. Like the bear population.
I think that it does give them.
You know, in. In the gay community, belonging is a big issue. We talk about that a lot. And I think that, in a sense, it gives people a niche. It gives people a subset. It gives people their. Their. Their tribe, their folks, their. Their fellow people that they can easily connect with. And I think that, you know, if you walk into a big room, you just see your people, all of a sudden it's like, okay, I feel safer. My nerves are calm. And I think that can help in that sense. Now, what I shadow. The flip of that is when it becomes insulated. When you become insulated in that community too much, and you think that, you know, everyone else sucks or is not as good, or you just stop interacting with other people. So one thing to find your camaraderie and a safe space within that subset, but at the same time, not completely isolate yourself from everybody else.
[00:09:39] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, there's. It's an interesting debate because, you know, when you look at exclusive communities, it's like, you know, even in our. In our community, we've had people be like, well, why is there not more content on. For trans men? And why is there no. Not more use of the word queer and these sorts of things? And we do get this feedback.
I wouldn't say often, but it happens. And there's. There's something to be said about exclusive communities in the sense that this is a corner that we've niched out where, you know, the content is created by gay men for gay men, and it's like, people who identify with this label, and I think we can. If we try and be too inclusive, then we dilute, like, the sense of belonging to the group that we identify with. Right. And I think. I think the LGBTQ community has done that a little bit where they've, like, just, like, let anyone and everyone into this pool.
[00:10:28] Speaker A: And.
[00:10:28] Speaker B: And that's where I think we. Now we have so much subdividing, and we got to go into these little pools because it's like, well, we still want to be able to identify with the labels and the identities that actually we resonate with. You know, what I mean, because it's. And I'm all for inclusion. I'm not saying that inclusion is a. Is a bad thing by any means. I think inclusion is a, is a beautiful thing. But when we become too inclusive, it can dilute maybe the mission or the vision of a particular sub community. Right.
[00:10:55] Speaker A: 100%. There is a book I read and I wish I was at home, I would pull it off my shelf. It's by. I think Priya Parker may have mentioned it before, but it's basically about the power of exclusion in creating belonging. And so it's very purposeful, intentional exclusion. So we are creating like in the game as brotherhood, a safe space for gay, bi and queer identifying men for a very particular reason, that it's specifically for that. And that can be a good thing. And so I think people can, especially in today's world, misunderstand that exclusion as us not being.
I mean, it is exclusionary, but it's done with, with a very solid purpose. And I think that's okay. I think that's very, very much okay. Yeah.
Again, not, not to the point where it is the be all and end all, but, you know, this is our community. We, we made it for this reason for these people. And we are serving these people. We're not here to serve everybody. And if you don't like it, that's fine. Go find the next one.
Yeah, right.
[00:11:54] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I just had a thought and actually it's quite a common label that we get in the gay community. I never even thought about this, but mask masculine, that's totally a label that we put on and that is one that I identified with hardcore because I was just thinking, I'm like, what are the downsides to labels? And one of them for me has been it boxes me in, creates concept of self and then we might have a hard time breaking out of that. And for me, my, my concept was masculine jock. And then I would immediately be lumping myself and also by others be lumped into top energy.
[00:12:32] Speaker A: Right.
[00:12:32] Speaker B: And that's not necessarily who I am. And I feel like. So a lot of my concepts started to shift over the years and I started to become more connected with my feminine and I started to be interested more in bottoming and I start. Right. So these sorts of things started to shift for me and it was, it was a grieving that I had to go through to let go of these labels because they weren't who I was anymore, especially the jock one, because, you know, I had all these injuries. I did my fitness competitions and I was very much. My self concept was like, you are the fit guy. And then I started to change, my body started to change and I had to kind of almost grab onto something new, which was kind of, I guess I'm, I'm still in that but I don't want to grab onto anything. So I do feel a little bit almost like nomadic in my identity. Like I'm not really landing on anything other than like what I've already said, like demisexual and this and that. But as far as like things that I actually, actually take on for a full on identity, I don't, I don't. I think I'm trying to be identityless.
[00:13:27] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:13:28] Speaker B: Label lists in a way, I think.
[00:13:31] Speaker A: For me I've always really enjoyed subverting those things and so I actually get a kick out of when people see me as something and then I just completely blow their mind. Something else. I love it. I do. And so I, I kind of have fun with it. So. Yeah, I haven't had that. But I, I get what you mean like in terms of the identifying like a label that identifies you and then all of a sudden like a, like a. Right, like you can be a twink and have all this identity attached to being a twink and then all of a sudden you age and there is a grieving process. It's like, wait a minute, like I'm not that cute twink anymore. I'm, I'm a, you know, 40 year old man and that those things just don't hit the same anymore. And so I think people kind of have that same identity crisis almost as they shift out of identities. But it also, it's also the same for people who are married and who are no longer married. People who worked at a certain place for like 25 years and now they don't. So it's, it's that same thing. Identity can come from all kinds of labels.
[00:14:32] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And we did that episode on Reinventing Yourself and I think that's a good episode to follow up with this stuff. If you are finding that, you know, your labels are just something that you're wanting to start to shed and let go of and stepping into a new version of yourself. Reinventing yourself is a, is a rebirthing process of like, yeah, shedding, grieving, letting go of who you were so you could become who you want to be. I guess.
[00:14:55] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And that takes time. Like my, my label in that episode I talked about going from like a 9 to 5 employee to like a entrepreneur. That was really weird because I'm like, I'm not an entrepreneur. What the fuck do I know about entrepreneurship? And it felt weird. It felt like putting on a new pair of shoes. Yet that's what I wanted. I wanted. I wanted to wear these shoes. And so you have to go through those awkward bits if it's something that you really want.
[00:15:21] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:15:22] Speaker A: And let go of the old thing, too, which is not. Not so easy, because your ego really wants to hold on to what it already knows and what it already feels safe with, even if it's not good for you or even if it doesn't suit you anymore.
[00:15:34] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting. But something else is coming through. It's. This conversation is stimulating me more than I thought. But, like, being the helper, healer guy in the gay community, there's, like, a part of me that I limit myself in certain ways that I show up. Like, I kind of feel like I have to be more serious or I have to be more. Like, I can't be promiscuous or I can't be these things because I have to be the guy that's like, the helper, the healer, the, you know, the therapist dude. So I do know that that boxes me in a little bit because, for example, when I went to Amsterdam, I let go of that for five days, and I was the wild Matt. Wild Matt came out, and I was like, whoa. I haven't experienced wild Matt in, like, probably since my early or my late 20s.
[00:16:15] Speaker A: Right.
[00:16:15] Speaker B: So I'm like, okay. So I think when I travel, I'm able to let go of labels and identities a lot easier, and I can just be whoever because I'm out of routine.
I'm not around the people who might be like, wait a minute. Why are you acting like this?
[00:16:29] Speaker A: Right.
[00:16:29] Speaker B: No one. When I'm traveling, no one knows how I act.
[00:16:31] Speaker A: Right.
[00:16:32] Speaker B: So that's fascinating.
[00:16:33] Speaker A: Whereas I just enjoy it. I love when people say that. I get such a kick out of it. Like, oh, that's not who I thought you were. I'm like, yep, that's right.
[00:16:40] Speaker B: Yeah. It's the power of the Gemini. We can shape shift very quickly.
[00:16:43] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, totally.
When I was talking about this with my graduates, I call them my alumni, there was a few people who thought that it was actually very unhelpful. And I thought that we need to just completely dispose of them altogether because their rationale was that it boxes people in. They don't fit in today's world anymore. We don't need them.
So I'm curious. What do you see are, like, the Negative repercussions of, of these labels that the gay culture has for whatever reason really seemed to take to.
[00:17:14] Speaker B: Yeah, I would say those people might be like, similar to, to me they might be struggling with feeling boxed in or they might be struggling with feeling like they don't belong.
[00:17:24] Speaker A: Right.
[00:17:25] Speaker B: Because maybe they haven't come to a place in their life where they, they feel like they fully know who they are. Right. So I feel like when we start coming into knowing who we are, we are able to say, okay, I am here, I'm here, I'm here, I'm right. So we either place ourselves as we get older or as we get older we start to just shed shit and start to let go. And I'm so. I don't need to. Right. So it's all, it's all dependent on the person and what they're needing. So I think they're the negatives can be. Yeah, it boxes you in. I think it creates exclusion. I think it, it makes, it, it makes people become like self fulfilling of their limitations or their fulfillment. Like fulfillment or potential or whatever. Right. But it's like I have to be this. Because everyone else around me is being like this. It's like for a good example is the gay culture.
It's like in order to be, you know, your currency as a gay man is to be muscular, to, you know, party, to do all these things. And then we feel like if we're not that then we, we have to feel inadequate or that we don't measure up. Right. So I can see how it can be destructive as well.
[00:18:25] Speaker A: I think that's it. You just nailed it. For me it is because I don't subscribe to that and I've kind of like let that go completely. So I think because I have such a. My sense of self is purely like here. In here. Yeah, that's why I was saying earlier people can label me whatever they want. It literally does nothing. I'm like, okay, like I don't need to fight with you. I don't need to. I'll just let you label me whatever. But I think you nailed it because I've done that work. And yeah, I don't, I don't need to prove anything. And so like, sometimes I mask, sometimes I'm not, sometimes I'm a drop, sometimes I'm not. Sometimes I'm a daddy, sometimes I'm not. And I think that's true for all of us. I think it's just sometimes we're in and sometimes we're not. And when we Try to, like, always fit this thing. That's the part that's limiting is this alwaysness. And I just love to play and dance in all ends of life and the messy bits and the magical bits and all these labels. But I think that if you're one of those people out there who has a hard time with these labels, maybe what Matt said is something you need to, like, rewind and listen to again. That might be your work.
[00:19:28] Speaker B: Yeah.
Come to think of it, you know, I don't even know if it's possible to be labelless, because what that means is that we would be identityless. And the way the being works is we have an ego. Our ego grabs on to concepts and identities and we form who we are. So maybe it's not about taking them away. Maybe it's about identifying with more. Right. So instead of saying, I'm mask, what if you identified with mask and femme and you played with both of them as opposed to. So it's more so about playing with the binary as opposed to falling on one side of the binary. Right. It's like. Because that's really how it's been for me. I'm like. Now that I think about it, I'm like, no, like, I haven't actually shed my identity and become this. This nothingness. I've actually taken on more identities and played with more costumes and more masks and more things. And that's what's. Give me a greater sense of liberation.
[00:20:18] Speaker A: Yeah. And the other piece of it is, is you don't have to identify with all of the traits of that thing, whatever those attributes are, all those characteristics. And the example I use is, you know, you and I, Matt, are Canadian.
And people have this idea of what Canadians are like.
Some. Some of those I fit, other ones I don't. And like, that doesn't make me any less Canadian. You don't see me questioning my Canadianness. It's like, no, I'm Canadian. I'm just not that kind of Canadian. I'm not the lumberjack. I don't play hockey. I hate the snow. I'm not that kind of. This kind of Canadian over here. And so, like, when you look at it in that sense, it's almost like, okay, yeah, there's like, there's room to breathe in these. In these labels.
[00:20:54] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I like that. It's like malleable. Make the label malleable. And don't. Don't be so rigid with identifying with it and within the scope of it, but also within just that label alone, like, hop into Other labels that I think can, can help thicken up who you are.
[00:21:12] Speaker A: Take what resonates, love it, identify with it, own it, and leave the rest if it doesn't. That doesn't, that does not make you a problem. It does not make you less than if you don't necessarily relate with all of that. That particular label like the mask one is a good one. Sometimes I mask, sometimes I'm not.
That doesn't, that doesn't has nothing to do with my sense of worth or confidence though. Like zero. Yeah, they're just labels. They're just, they. I can identify with it sometimes and not always, but it's separate from my internal worthiness.
[00:21:40] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly.
And we don't have to look the part either. If we, if we stopped like looking in the mirror and being like, well, I don't really look like a bear, so I can't be a bear or I don't look that mask, I can't be mask. It's like, well, no, sometimes when we identify with things as labels, we can also identify them through an energy.
Energetics can also play a role in this too. It doesn't just have to be appearance.
So play with the energy of what it's like to be masculine or what it's like to be, you know, burly, these sorts of things. And it doesn't have to just be how we look. I know people are going to have a hard time wrapping their head around that concept because we're so looks driven in our culture. But you know, behind closed doors you can start playing around with the energies of these things and then hopefully one day you find courage to bring that energy out into the world and share it with people.
[00:22:28] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think that it, you know, I'm gonna give Jen, what is it? Z, Gen Z and Gen Alpha some credit here, which I don't often do, but I think they've done a really good job of again being submersive. Subversive, which is what I like to do. But they just, you know, and I think it's great. I think it's wonderful. I love it. I'm all for it. I love seeing younger folks, most senior folks just take these things and completely flip them on their head. And I think it's great and I think we need more of it. So the more we do that, I think the more we get to what you're saying and we just, we just need examples of it. And what I find is people have that natural tendency, like they'll say like behind closed doors, this is what I. This is what I want to do, but. Oh, I never do that out loud or I never. I've never actually put that out there. And I'm like, no, no, that's what we need. We need examples of people having the courage to express themselves in their most genuine expression. And that might be a little bit of this and a little bit of that and a little bit of this, and then you own that all, and you make this beautiful soup of an identity, and then it gives other people permission to do the same.
[00:23:31] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:23:32] Speaker A: Take those labels and make a quilt.
[00:23:35] Speaker B: Exactly. I love how our minds were just going there. You're like, you're going to a quilt. And I said, what kind of soup would yours be?
[00:23:40] Speaker A: Oh, God, that's a lot. It's a lot of flavor in my soup.
[00:23:44] Speaker B: Yeah, I love it.
[00:23:46] Speaker A: Another thing is the straight folks out there. I know we have some straight listeners. I think they get such a kick out of our.
The gay labels. Like, I get my, you know, my family asking, like, what's a bear? Like, are you an otter? Those kinds of things. And it's true, because I don't see. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see any other kind of, like, subsets of, like, the world out there who have this. These archetypes that are so built into the fabric of their culture. I think it's just. I think it's just the gays that do this.
[00:24:14] Speaker B: Yeah, Yeah. I would be. And not an otter. I'd be a wolf. I think I'd be a friendly wolf.
[00:24:20] Speaker A: What's a wolf?
[00:24:21] Speaker B: I don't know. I just. That's the vision I get of myself, Like. Or like a golden retriever or something like that. Like, I. I just. I'm not an otter. I don't think. I feel like a wolf is just maybe like a guy that's hairy, but he's not, like an otter.
[00:24:33] Speaker A: Yeah. There is a wolf category tag. I've seen them. I just.
[00:24:37] Speaker B: Oh, perfect. Well, then I'm.
[00:24:38] Speaker A: That.
[00:24:38] Speaker B: I'll be. That. I'll be a wolf.
[00:24:40] Speaker A: Everyone out there, enlighten us. If you are listening to us, please write in the comments. Tell us what a wolf is.
[00:24:45] Speaker B: Yeah. And tell us what labels you identify with. I want to know. Yes.
[00:24:49] Speaker A: And whether you think they are helpful or hindering to your sense of identity and belonging. All right, Matt, any last words?
[00:24:55] Speaker B: No. No.
[00:24:56] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:24:57] Speaker B: That was great fun.
[00:24:58] Speaker A: Yeah. That was a fun little first shot at our spontaneous conversation here. We had no agenda, guys. We just popped on the camera. And started talking.
So if you want us to keep doing these, if you like this kind of format, let us know. Feel free also to let us know what topics you'd like to hear from us, because that's fun, too. And as always, everything that we do in the Gaiman's Brotherhood, our events, our courses, our coaching, counseling and men's groups are all in the show notes. So if you want to go deeper with us, that's where you can find us.
All right, guys, have a good one.
