The Problem With Self-Love

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. Welcome to Gay Men Going Deeper, a podcast by the Gay Men's Brotherhood that showcases raw and real conversations about personal development, mental health, and sexuality from an unapologetically gay perspective. I'm your host, Michael Diorio, and joining me today is Michael Pizzulo. Today we are talking about self love, but not in the usual way that we do on this podcast. Instead, we'll be looking at it from the shadow side. We'll be looking at maybe the problem with self love and how it can actually not be very useful, depending on the situation. Specifically, we'll be exploring that very fine line between healing and hiding. So joining me today to unpack this topic is Michael Patillo. Michael's been here before. Michael is a psychotherapist located in West Hollywood, California, who has expertise in trauma and healing. So welcome back, Michael. [00:00:57] Speaker B: Thank you for having me. [00:00:59] Speaker A: I don't know how many podcast episodes we're at with you, but it's cool. [00:01:02] Speaker B: This is like, I want to say like a three peat, but I feel like it's more. [00:01:05] Speaker A: More. Yeah, yeah, we've done a few. Yeah. And so for the viewers and listeners out there, what we want you to get from this episode is an understanding that self love comes in different flavors, and it's not always about being soft with yourself. So we're going to offer some practical tips on how to tell what kind of self love you most need and how to practice that. By the way, this podcast and YouTube channel are listener and viewer supported. So if you enjoy what we're creating, you can support us by making a donation to the show using the link in the show notes. If you're watching us on YouTube, you can also go ahead and just tap that thanks button in the corner of your screen to show us some love. All right, I like to start off these episodes by explaining to the audience why I want to do these topics and why I chose to do this topic. So this one's called the Problem with Self Love, which might be a little bit jarring to. To hear coming from me, who talks a lot about how self love is the cornerstone of self confidence. And we do talk about self love a lot here on this podcast. And you see it all over Instagram with all the quotes and platitudes and all the things going on and on and on about self love. And I do say it all the time. Self love is the cornerstone of self confidence. I stand behind that. But here's what I want to talk about today. There is a version of self love that strengthens you and There is a version of self love that weakens you. I call the version of self love that weakens you self cuddling. I did not make this up. I heard this from my own coach, so I'm just borrowing it from her. And coddling yourself is when you take comforting yourself too far. Comforting yourself is useful and helpful, but coddling yourself is not. So let me use a illustration, an example, if you will. Let's just say my boyfriend broke up with me. So naturally, I'm sad, I'm angry. I might be feeling insecure, vulnerable, all the things that happen in a breakup. Comforting myself is tending to my emotional wounds, getting support from others, maybe even I take a break from my usual routine. I skip the gym, order pizza, watch some Netflix for a little while. But I also make room to process and feel that pain. We just did a whole bunch of episodes about feeling your feelings. So those of you who've been following along, that's what I would do. Now, after a while of comforting myself, it's time to get back into my routine. Time to reflect on what I've learned and get back into the business of living my best life and maybe even dating again. So coddling myself is not doing that. It's actually remaining stuck in the pain, indulging in it, isolating myself from my friends, family, and pushing people away, not getting the support that I need, and using this breakup and using this pain as a reason to continually not show up in my life. Now, I know what you might be thinking, but, Michael, what if this breakup triggered a trauma response? And you know you're depressed? Don't you need to tend to your nervous system? And I say, yes, of course you need to tend to your nervous system. Of course. And if you've lived through trauma or deep emotional pain, it makes perfect sense to give yourself a sense of emotional safety, gentleness, and ease. I'm not denying that at all. That's not what I'm saying here. I want to make that point, but I believe at some point, healing isn't just about tending to the wounds. It's really about building emotional capacity to move past it. And I call this emotional scar tissue. If there's an emotional wound, then in order to heal, there needs to be some scar tissue, right? And emotional scar tissue is what forms when you've gone through something hard, like a breakup or anything hard. And you come out of it stronger, not the way you were, because you're never gonna be the way you were. But. But that wound has healed. Not because, you know you ignored the pain or bulldozed your way through it, but because you worked through it and kept showing up. So, yes, do tend to your nervous system. But the way that I want to see it is that safety and survival isn't the long term goal. It's the launch pad for the next thing. So that's where I want to start with Michael. Michael Pitullo here. I invited Michael here today because he does a lot of work with men who have experienced trauma. So, Michael, let's focus on this from that lens, from the therapeutic lens. How do you describe the difference between comforting yourself like I used in my example, and then coddling yourself? [00:05:23] Speaker B: Yeah, so I think, you know, with any growth, there's going to be some process of going towards discomfort. Right. And I think that people who are averse to experiencing discomfort in general are not going to go very far. And they may be at a point in their life where they're, they're not really interested in taking on more discomfort. So they might not be able to grow too much, too much at that time. But I think coddling myself is really being in a place of not wanting to experience discomfort, which I think to the point you were making earlier, can be okay to a certain degree or a certain amount, but there's not a lot of growth there if you just stay in a place of only wanting to cuddle and tend to your immediate needs. [00:06:06] Speaker A: Yeah. Now, I imagine as a therapist, you get people sitting there and they think that they are, you know, doing the work by just simply being there. And I'm sure that is part of it. But do you find at some point that, like, I call it indulging, like, it's just going on and on and on in circles. And if that's the case as a therapist, how do you know? How do you know that difference? How do you know when it's time? Like, how do you know when they're just doing that as a form of avoidance of avoiding the discomfort versus when to just sit there and hold space for them to, to, to do that work? [00:06:37] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think that's kind of one of the, like, cliches and tropes about therapy you see in movies where someone's just droning on and on and on and the person just nodding along very like faux sympathetically and then cashing a check and, you know, moving on with their life and no one's getting better and it's all very performative and just like, unnecessary. Yeah. And that, that can still happen to a certain degree, but I would say it's it's not that common. Especially again, as you know, going to, going to therapy, going to coaching, it is work, it is a discipline. And also you're paying money for it as well. So I think that if you know someone who's in a place who's just looking for cuddling, in my experience, they don't last very long in therapy. I don't think it goes. I think pretty quickly they realize, like, while there is obviously some sense of, you know, getting validation and empathy and all of that's nice, but the process of therapy to me is all about taking my agency back and growing. And if I'm not interested in that, I just don't think it's going to go too far. [00:07:38] Speaker A: Amen. That's great. Happy to hear that. Do you think? Well, I mean, we were only speaking for ourselves here, but you're right, that's, that's sometimes what you do see on TV is that's what therapy is, just someone just nodding along while the person just speaks for the entire session. So I guess everyone is different is what I'm saying. All, all coaches are different, all therapists are different. But as the therapist in your position, when, when you're the one in that position where you're like listening, how can you tell when someone is using self care as a form of avoidance? Like what are, what's a sign for you? [00:08:10] Speaker B: Yeah, I think, I think you'll be able, and I'm sure you can tell this as well too, but when someone seems, you know, disinterested in growing or leaning into discomfort and you know, as, as a therapist, my, my job is not to tell them no, okay, you're get out, you're fired. But to then try to understand with them what is this stuckness that you're experiencing? You know, what is this wall that you're, that you're hitting? Because part of you is curious about growth, but part of you is more resigned to this, to what's familiar now and what is keeping you stuck and meeting them there and seeing what that's all about. [00:08:47] Speaker A: Yeah, that's exactly right. I love that. I'll ask sometimes, like, you know what, what are you getting from telling the story? Like, is it, is it relief? Is it clarity? Or is it just telling the story because you like telling the story? Because it's the only story you know right now. Right. So, you know, it is, it is a fine line. And that's why I think this is such an interesting topic because it's not the same for everyone. Right. For some People like in my breakup example, for some people it's just like, you know, a couple days, and for others, it could be a month. There's. There's no one size fits all. [00:09:16] Speaker B: Yes. And I think sometimes too, people, sometimes you don't know why you're stuck. Like, you. You genuinely don't know. So I think you don't want to be it. To come across as dismissive as, like, you know, just get. Get over it. Um, and then sometimes people do, and they're just sort of like resisting and digging in. And so you want to understand whatever that resistance is, but it really does depend on the person. [00:09:36] Speaker A: Yeah. I think that's why it is really important that, like, if you're already going to a counselor, a therapist, coach someone in that realm, yes, you are already doing such a great job. But I think, you know, as you said, it is a investment of time and money. At some point, at least the way I do coaching is. I think of coaching as a line between a point A and a point B. At some point, we do need to move towards something else. That does not mean we dismiss it. It does not mean we kind of put our heads in the sand about it, but it means they're like there's processing that happens. And then for me, there has to be an and then what? And doesn't need to be in session one or two or three or four. But eventually that's where we're going. [00:10:17] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I agree. And I think, you know, with therapy, sometimes you are keeping someone company as they're stuck in something. [00:10:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:10:27] Speaker B: You know, which can almost feel like we're not going anywhere. But there is like a. [00:10:31] Speaker A: There. [00:10:31] Speaker B: It's like micro movements. But you're sort of keeping them company as they experience whatever they're stuck on. Obviously, it depends. I mean, if they're. If they're stuck on, like a serious drug addiction, then no, you can't just keep them company as they do something very destructive. But if they're stuck on something more innocuous, sometimes that is part of the work of, like, staying with someone while they're in that in between space, and eventually something starts to move. [00:10:56] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well said. I want to introduce a concept here to the audience that I don't. I have not talked about it here on the podcast. So it's a tool that I use called the self love spectrum. It's a framework that I use with my clients to help illustrate the different flavors of self love that I have talked about at the beginning. So just bear with me on this. If you're one of those listeners out there who likes to take notes on these things, go get your notepad because you're gonna like this one. So there are four zones in the self love spectrum, and we've already talked about two of them. So on the one extreme is self cuddling. That's really about avoiding those discomfort, refusing to come out from under the blanket. I like to think about cudd where like you put the blanket over your head and you try to avoid reality and try to avoid your life. So you kind of just like, oh, I can't deal with this. Self coddling is where you refuse to come out from under the blanket to go back into your life. The zone beside that is self comfort, right? And that is restorative. It's still, it's still in the soft realm of self love. It's tending to your nervous system. It's creating that safety, and it is useful. This is one that we want to be in. It's the extreme that we want to stay away from. Okay, so those are the first two zones. Now let's look at the other two zones where we move away from the softness and more in towards the firm territory, if you will. So sitting in zone three, in the middle there, right beside self comfort, is self empowering. Okay? I call it, I used to call it fierce self love. Like that fierce mama bear, papa bear kind of love. It's firm, but still loving. When you're practicing it, it feels strengthening and expansive. And that is where you are facing your discomfort with care and compassion. And so you're taking action. You're taking steps just beyond the edge of your comfort zone. You are facing that discomfort. It does still feel scary. Here's the thing. Your nervous system is still like freaking out a bit, but you don't need to necessarily give in to that all the time. It's like, okay, you know what? Yes, my nervous system is freaking out. Yes, I'm feeling anxious and afraid. And also I ready to take the next best step. And then the last zone, the fourth zone is the other extreme, which is self bulldozing. And that's the opposite of self coddling. And that is where you have a complete lack of regard for your feelings. No rest, no reflection. You just, you know, prove you're strong, bulldoze the parts of you that need love and need care and need healing. And you kind of say, I'm fine, just move on. And you don't tend to it at all. So the goal here in those four zones is you want to stick to comforting and empowering, the two middle ones, and try to stay up, try to avoid the extremes, the coddling and the bulldozing. So I like this model, and a lot of my clients like this model because they're really, like, I asked them, okay, what zone are you in right now? Right, like, oh, yeah, you're right. Okay, I see what I'm doing. And I do this myself too. Don't get me wrong. This has really helped me in my own life. I can sometimes swing from one extreme to the other and be like, okay, Michael, like, we need to just find the middle ground of processing it, honoring it, but not getting stuck in it. And also not just bulldozing my way through it either. So this is what has helped me build some. Some self trust in my life. And I wanted to bring this up to you in the audience today because I think a lot of self love culture that we see out there is really focused on that soft, comforting side. But that doesn't mean that there aren't people who totally avoid it either. And also that there can be this fierce kind of self love where you are facing your discomfort. So, Michael, I'm curious, what are your thoughts on that? [00:14:27] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, no, I agree with you. And I think a lot of therapy in general and also some of this discourse around self love is very feminized. It's very soft, it's very gentle. It's very, you know, and it doesn't have to be like that. Like, self love can have a masculine element to it as well. If I want to achieve things, I want to be a go getter. I want to get things done. It doesn't have to be like, so soft and gentle. I think particularly because most of us, you know, both of us work mostly with men that I think that is, you know, the, the, the softer, gentler stuff doesn't always appeal to men, so. Well, I know it doesn't for me that it doesn't really doesn't feel empowered. No, it feels kind of like annoying. Like, I just. This is not my thing, you know, it's like the wrong genre of music. It's fine, just not, not for me. But I, I much prefer like a how can I feel empowered in my life approach to self love. [00:15:18] Speaker A: Yeah, you're right. And for a lot of my male clients, I, I think it's the same thing. Like, yeah, they have a hard time with that softness that, like nurturing, if you want to call it that, but they're both valid. And I'm not saying I'm not saying you have to do one or the other, but I'm just saying it's nice to be well practiced in both because at any point in your life, you might need one over the other or even if it's in the same day, like, at least for me, sometimes I do need that softness and to be very gentle and caring with myself. And. And then other times I need to say, okay, like, back up. Not in a way that's like, avoiding everything and like, bulldozing, but, like, okay, I have felt this enough, and I need to. I need to do something else now. I need to do something else with my day. Right? [00:15:58] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. [00:16:01] Speaker A: Michael, how do you help clients who are on either ends of. Of those spectrums? [00:16:06] Speaker B: Good question. Well, I, you know, I would say, obviously our job is to. Is to connect to people and give them what they need. With that being said, I think all of us do have, like, a natural personality and a natural temperament. So, you know, I'm, I'm. I lean more towards, like, the protective, like, direction, be more cerebral, more concrete way of doing things than, like, the, the maybe as nurturing kind of a vibe. So. And, you know, I think we can't be everything to everyone, right? So I think there is part of it, if. If. And that's why it's so important to do, like, consults and to talk to different clinicians to get a sense of, does this person's vibe align with what I'm looking for? Cause I don't think we can do. We can do everything. There is, like, there are natural ways that we are in the world that are just going to sort of seep in. [00:16:55] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I'm so happy you say that. That's for true. People who end up finding me through the podcast obviously know a lot about me. They know my style. So they, they know that they're not going to be necessarily coming to me for, like, a lot of that trauma healing. That's not really my zone of genius. That's someone else's zone of genius, by all means. But by the time they get to me, usually they're like, okay, I've done a lot of work with my therapist. They think that I'm, you know, doing well. I've kind of found my feet. I'm ready to move forward. And that's kind of where my personal, as a coach, zone of geniuses. And if they find that they are, maybe it's having a hard time with, like, in a consult asking, okay, what is your point, B. What do you want? Where do you see yourself being. And if they find that there is a lot of severe discomfort and severe resistance to that, then I'll say I'm not. I think you need maybe to do a bit more therapy or maybe a bit more healing before we even go down this coaching road. [00:17:49] Speaker B: Yeah, no, it's reminding me. I saw, a few years ago, I saw a somatic therapist briefly just because I was kind of curious to try it out and see if I wanted to get trained on it. And nothing, nothing against him, but his approach was so soft and gentle and alike and I just didn't like it. And there was nothing wrong with him as a person and I'm sure a friend of mine went to him and loved it, but I just felt like this is not my vibe. [00:18:13] Speaker A: But you know what, you've dealt with people who've gone through like severe trauma, right? Yeah. So. So you know, how do you find, how do you help them find small meaningful ways to move past that, like start taking action, whatever that might look like even and face that discomfort, you know, but without having it like completely re. Traumatize them. [00:18:32] Speaker B: Yeah, so. So. Well, first thing with trauma work is, is safety. That's like the first thing. So when someone comes in and they're experiencing trauma, you don't just say go right into it and just say let's go straight for the pain because it will really overwhelm them and dysregulate them and they don't have enough tools and it will just make things a million times worse. Yeah. So the first thing you want to do is help them with containment. So making sure that they're not engaging in self destructive behaviors, which often is. There's some of that going on, just that they're physically safe, that they're emotionally safe, like really kind of lowering the frequency as much as you can and helping them find a little bit more ease and comfort. I mean it really depends how someone comes in. If they, if this something that happened a long time ago and they're not, it's dysregulated, then you can go towards it quicker. But if they, if it's recent and they're still in a very hyper intense state, post traumatic state, then first things first is a lot of containment and soothing and helping them get. And people, people like that, they like feeling like, you know, there's a, there's a frame, there's a, there's a plan, there's like a container that I can hold all this in that I'm not just like swimming in. You know gook all the time. [00:19:38] Speaker A: Yeah, that's really helpful. Yeah, it's great work that you do. Okay, let's check in with our audience. So I want you guys who are watching on YouTube to share with us in the comments. And be honest, what is your flavor of self love? Is it more soft that you like to practice, or are you more of that firm type like Michael, or do you alternate between both, depending on the situation? So let us know in the comments. And if you're enjoying the conversation we're having here, I want to invite you to our weekly events within the Gay Men's Brotherhood. We have sharing circles where you'll have a chance to share your experiences with a bigger group of guys. And then we also have our connection circles, which are smaller, more intimate breakout rooms where you can discuss the topics that we discuss here in the podcast with other listeners of the podcast and other members of the community. If you're interested in either of these events, please go to gaymensbrotherhood.com and check out our events section to RSVP. You don't have to have Facebook to join us. If you are on our email list, we'll email you all of the zoom links to get in. All right. When I look at my own life, you know, I thought, like a lot of people, that self love was exactly that, that very soft kind of self love, which is, again, not a problem. But when I learned about empowering self love, that more firmer version of it, it 10 xed my self trust and self confidence. So let's rewind maybe back to my early 30s, 20s and 30s. Early 30s. I would never admit this at the time. I probably didn't even know this at the time. But I was emotionally fragile. I could not handle failure, criticism, rejection. I would hide from scenarios where that might happen. And I was very sensitive to any kind of criticism, perceived or otherwise. And what that meant was I was kind of hiding from my own life. I wouldn't put myself out there. I had to have this very polished veneer of my life and me. And I was hiding and not living life on my own terms. You wouldn't know it looking on the outside looking, and you'd have no idea that was kind of what was going on within me. It was kind of like the my life is great on paper kind of thing. But inside there was a lot of things I was avoiding. And in that time, I used to think confidence was not being afraid. It was being feared less, not having any fear. But now I've learned that what it means is actually moving while you have fear, feeling the fear and doing it anyway, as the book is called. And that has developed because I've learned to trust myself, because I can handle, even if I fall flat on my face and fail, even if I am criticized, which I am, and even if I get rejected, which I do, I can still put myself out there because I know how to tend to myself. That's where that self love comes in handy. But let me back up a sec. I said that I was emotionally fragile. For those of you who don't know what that means in that context, fragility is an inability to tolerate any kind of discomfort, challenge, or emotional intensity without shutting down, lashing out, or completely retreating. It often shows up as avoidance, extreme defensiveness, or over identifying with victimhood. But here's the gag and what I'm curious to get Michael's opinion on. Sometimes we are victims. We have been victimized in our lives. So the question becomes, this is for you, Michael. How do you know when it's time to move beyond that victimhood? Where's the line between honoring that pain but not being defined by it? [00:22:59] Speaker B: That is a tough question. Yeah. And I think that people wrestle with that a lot. And what I often find is that people who are preoccupied with being concerned that they're victimizing themselves usually are not. And people who are don't even consider that they're victimizing themselves are usually the people that are a little bit. And it is a really, it is a really fine line. And I also like to think of it as something that's not necessarily like, you check off the box, you know, and then you're, you're done with. Because the horrible things that have happened to us will always be a source of feeling victimized. In some ways, when you think about it, you're gonna, you know, brings you back to that place and so on and so forth. But so I would, I would encourage people to think about like, how much does this shackle me? How much does this immobilize me? Am I drawing conclusions from this that are interfering with my life, you know, going forward? I mean, I guess just to be specific, like some, some gay people who, you know, were bullied growing up, which is obviously quite common, but feel as though like they've been damaged, you know, permanently, that there's just no way to get past it. It's just, you know, that kind of like more permanent, all encompassing thinking of this happened to me and it's, you know, handicapping me forever feels more like you're giving up a lot of your power. [00:24:21] Speaker A: Yeah, agreed. Exactly right. And I think that that's, that's really important is, is that we don't pretend it never happened. We don't deny it, but it's really about, like, the story you tell about it now, because you can bring it. I mean, it is, it is baggage. But, like, what, how, how much of that defines you, how you choose to live with that baggage in your life, I guess really is the difference between someone who is stuck in that perpetual cycle of victimhood versus someone who can honor it. Say, yes, this was a part of my history. It's very real. It's. That's authentic to me, part of my story, but. Or, and also, like, watch me thrive. Fierceness, I call it fierceness. I love that word. Like, if you stay stuck in that self coddling, I think it creates fragility. But when you move along that spectrum to more firm self love, that creates a fierceness about you. [00:25:10] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And I, I do think something about this day and age or this generation, there does seem to be like a victimy mentality to it. Older people often complain about that, but I kind of think they have a point. I mean, even if you look at some of these, like, you know, LGBT news accounts online, every single story is just ways that we're being mistreated. And a lot of them are really, like, they're really stretching for, you know, trauma. Like, this is, you know, sometimes we legitimately did do something a little inappropriate, you know, So I do, I do lean a little bit more towards the idea of there's something in the culture, I think, that is promoting this a little bit interesting. [00:25:49] Speaker A: Yeah, I wouldn't doubt that. I think, especially as you said, I think probably it's a generational thing. I think you're right there. Now, there are a lot of people who identify as sensitive, which I totally get, because I have elements of that that are very true to me. But I want to say to everyone out there, when I talk about fragility, it's not the same as sensitivity. To me, sensitivity means you feel deeply, and fragility means you break easily. Sensitivity to me helps connect me with others. It helps me tap into my empathy, helps me just, you know, if I'm in a room, I can sense and I can feel how people are feeling just by their behavior. And it's a, It's a positive thing on the whole. But fragility does not connect you to others. That actually keeps you in protection mode, and it prevents you from connecting with Others because you're so afraid to put yourself out there. It's, it's really avoiding the discomfort of putting yourself out there, getting feedback from others. As I said, I used to be very sensitive to criticism, so I would just kind of keep people with a wall here. And so sometimes I think I'm curious to get your opinion, Michael. You know, do you see people using that sensitivity as a, as a disguise, as a protection mechanism? [00:26:52] Speaker B: That's a good question. I think the way I, the way I think of it is like, well, this is my personal philosophy, but I feel like we've gotten into this world where I think we should all respect each other, you know, and we should treat each other relatively nicely and not attack each other and not be hateful. Of course. But I do feel like some people have this expectation that everyone is supposed to affirm them, like supposed to tell them that they're great or, you know, and I feel like that's a. That to me feels very victimy because most people are not going to affirm every choice that you, that you make kind of a thing, you know, like if I, if I have a next door neighbor who is homophobic, I mean, it's unlikely. It's a West Hollywood. But even if I did, I mean, as long as they don't like, attack me or spit in my face, like, I don't like, care. They may not like affirm my life, but I don't. Might not affirm theirs either. [00:27:43] Speaker A: Yeah. Peacefully beside each other, Right? [00:27:47] Speaker B: Exactly, exactly. So I feel like some, I feel like I notice people who are very sensitive, I think are taking in a lot of data, but are often very sensitive with others. I feel like people who get more victimized easily have unrealistic expectations of what other people are supposed to do for them. [00:28:02] Speaker A: It's a good way to put it like that. Yeah. So what's something about self love that the podcast is called the Problem of Self Love. What would you say, in your own words, is the problem with self love? [00:28:12] Speaker B: Well, I think, you know, from a very top level view, I think it can get easily, very indulgent. [00:28:18] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:19] Speaker B: You know, like I'm practicing self love, so I'm calling on a work, which means I'm leaving everyone high and dry because I'm taking care of me. You know, I'm eating a lot of unhealthy food, I'm spending money I don't have, whatever. It just goes into a place of, like, indulgence and also neglecting other people and responsibilities, which I don't think that's the idea. So I think there's that and I think other parts of it too can feel just very kind of phony and insincere of, you know, I'm just like performative kind of self talk stuff. I think of self love not as, you know, boosting myself up and being grandiose, but really accepting all of me. [00:28:56] Speaker A: Yes. [00:28:57] Speaker B: Accepting everything I've got going on rather than promoting like, look how great I am and yeah, don't you see how special I am? [00:29:04] Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. So well said. One of the aspects of self love that I love is like being. I call it tough love, but I know that that word has issues for some people, but I call it tough love. So, like, I will tell myself, oh, I don't really want to do this. And like people who say, oh no, just practice self love and self care and like, let's say going to the gym, let's say I made a commitment, I can go to the gym at 7 o' clock every morning this week, whatever reason. Okay. Self. Like I could say, oh no, but I'm comfy in bed, I need to sleep. Right. For me, my version of self love is like, no, you said you were going to do this. Like you're not sick. It's not what's happening. You're just, you want to stay in bed, obviously you want to stay in bed at 7 o' clock in the morning. And then self love for me is honoring my commitment to myself. That is a very, very deep form of self love, but one I think a lot of people don't really know how to do. Maybe it's called self discipline or self trust, but that for me is how I feel it. Like it feels strengthening and expansive for me when I get up out of bed and I do the thing I said I was going to do even though I don't want to do it. Other people will say, oh, no, but self love is like not forcing yourself and tending to yourself. [00:30:06] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I'm with you. I'm with you. And I think that the life of perpetual indulgence just goes nowhere. It just goes nowhere. I mean, anything that you. That's worthwhile takes hard work, growth, discipline. And there's so much reward that comes from seeing your efforts, you know, pay off. All the days that I've spent, you know, just doing self love indulgence, I can't even remember them. They, they've come and gone. [00:30:29] Speaker A: Yeah, 100%. You know, as a coach, I work with people who have big goals, big dreams, And I help them realize those. And that is one of the biggest things that we have to, to, to kind of adjust in their mindset is like, it is going to be uncomfortable. If you want to do something big with your life, it doesn't have to be like a big grandiose thing, but just, you know, take your life in a way that's meaningful to you. Chances are you're going to upset somebody, get criticized, put yourself out there for feedback. That's not, you're not gonna, like, your family and friends are like, what the fuck are you doing? Other people are gonna be like, you know, have opinions about it and like, you have to build a bit of resilience to that. And self love isn't, oh, I'm gonna again pull the blanket over my head and not do it. It's. I'm gonna take this blanket off my head and open myself up to all of that criticism. [00:31:16] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, you know, like, when you put anything on YouTube, you, you get critique. I mean, it's just part of it. [00:31:24] Speaker A: Bring it. [00:31:25] Speaker B: Yeah. Oftentimes it's like, doesn't even make any sense. You're kind of like, that's, you know, but it's just part of the territory. If you're in the arena, people are gonna give you feedback, good and bad. [00:31:36] Speaker A: Yeah. And, you know, one of the ways that you can practice self love there is, you know, in the, in the face of rejection or criticism in the, in that public arena is like, ooh, like, if it's something that really hurts. So, like, you know what? That does hurt. Like these comments. You know, one particular comment might actually hurt me. And I don't gloss over it. I tend to the part of me that feels misunderstood or hurt by that, but that doesn't mean I stop, I shut down, I turn off the lights and I close up my, like, YouTube page. No, I, I show up again and again and again, but I, I still do make room for it to hurt. [00:32:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:32:11] Speaker A: All right. What are your last words on self love before we wrap this up? [00:32:15] Speaker B: Last words. I mean, I feel like we've, we've got really lands on this idea of embracing discomfort as the part of the, the, the growth process. [00:32:23] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:32:24] Speaker B: Which I think is so important and, and so real. And anything worthwhile is going to have some, you know, I don't want to say blood, sweat and tears, but a little bit of elbow grease that goes into it. I guess for people that do take on discomfort. [00:32:42] Speaker A: Well. [00:32:42] Speaker B: And do push themselves, I think for them, you know, self Love may come with like slowing down, giving themselves moments to pause. Like some people really do just jump in and take off easily and they have more trouble with like the having moments of calm, having moments of balance, you know, that sort of thing. [00:33:01] Speaker A: Yeah, I think what comes to mind is the people who are listening out there who might struggle with burnout and exhaustion for maybe doing too much and that self love, actually you probably tend to be more of a bulldozer, which is like, I don't have time to feel this. I just gotta get, I gotta get through my day. I gotta get stuff done. Then yeah, the. Then you have to go further along that softness scale to more of that self soothing, self comforting, self care. [00:33:23] Speaker B: Yeah, I would agree. I would agree. I think a lot of men and especially go getters and entrepreneurs tend to be like that. [00:33:30] Speaker A: Yeah, I had to deal with that as well. I know Matt has as well. So yeah, it's. That's the thing. And then I hope that's what the audience is getting out of this is self love does come in many flavors and it's really important that you can choose what you most need from that spectrum and how you can tend to yourself in a way that doesn't make you hide from reality, it doesn't make you escape your own life, but also still honors your pain. That's that, that's that balance right there. [00:33:55] Speaker B: Agreed. [00:33:56] Speaker A: All right, Michael, where can people find you? [00:33:59] Speaker B: So people can find me my website, Michael Pizzulo.com I also have a YouTube channel, Therapy for gay men. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I got that. Right. And. And on Instagram you can look me up as well. [00:34:10] Speaker A: Okay, awesome. I'm going to link all that in the show notes. So if you guys are listening and you like what Michael's talking about, you want to connect with him, please do. You have lots of ways to do that. I'll put all that in the show notes. Michael, thank you so much for joining on this topic. [00:34:21] Speaker B: Thank you for having me as always. [00:34:23] Speaker A: Yeah, we'll be doing this again, no doubt. All right, thank you to our guests, for our viewers and listeners for joining us here today. And if you're on YouTube, remember to go ahead and tap that thanks button to show some love. Leave a comment. Pass this episode along to someone who needs it. I'm sure we all have people on our lives who are like, oh yeah, you need to listen to this. And by the way, guys, if you listen to us on Apple, you can always subscribe to get early access to listen to the show about three episodes in advance before they are released to the general public. All of your support helps us to continue making content and supporting our community. So we thank you for that in advance, and I really hope to see you guys at the next event within the game as brotherhood. All right, guys, thank you so much. Have a good one.