Spirituality, Somatics, and Sexual Healing With JoJo Bear

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Perfect. [00:00:02] Speaker B: So welcome to the gay men going Deeper podcast. I am one of your super hosts. My name is Reno Johnston and I am here with Jojo, Jojo Bear. Jojo is a somatic sex and intimacy educator in the San Francisco Bay Area. Jojo uses somatic coaching, sexological bodywork, and hypnotherapy as tools to help people get out of their heads and into their bodies. His commitment is to create an environment where men, single or coupled, can feel safe enough to explore their wants, needs, and desires around their body, sex and sexuality. His passions include teaching the wheel of consent, belly to belly, embodiment and metabation. And I am delighted to have Jojo here just to kind of set up the conversation as well. Jojo and I connected through the body electric school, and for those of you who probably heard me talk about the body electric school in the past and maybe wondered, what is the body electric school? So it was first founded in the San Francisco Bay Area in 1984 in response to the emotional trauma, social dislocation, and shame experienced by gay men during the first years of the AIDS crisis. Since then, the school has offered professionally guided workshops lasting two to six days that inspire and support participants toward integrating their emotional, sacred, and erotic lives. And so I was the director of marketing formally for the school. I'm still involved with the school. I went through your ambassador program, Jojo, which is amazing. I highly recommend anyone who's coming into the school to check that out. It's a great way to learn and support the work. But thank you for being here today. I'm really grateful that you were available for this conversation. I'm excited to learn more about you because I know a bit about you, but I'm just excited to dig in and to hear more about, like, you, how you got here, how you found your way to this work and. And what you're up to currently. So without further ado, I'll start by saying how. How are you today? [00:02:30] Speaker A: Um, I'm good. Thanks for asking. I, uh. Yeah, I was, I was. I was a little restless last night, so I'm a little on low energy, but I think I'm going to be good. Yeah, I think I'm going to be good today. I have an exciting day. I'm doing some. There's a. This is so random, but I need to share because it's just, there's a group in San Francisco called, it's actually a church. It's a real church called the Church of the Clown. And it's the guy who's a master clowner and open up this church and teaching mime and clowning, and there's an art called Buffon, and it's around movement, and it's just the. The stuff that they do. Clowns and mimes are doing somatic work. And when I mean somatic, if anybody doesn't know what that word is, it's anything around the body, anything about being embodied and being, you know, like what you said earlier out of your head and really embodied. And I think, so I'm doing that tonight and all weekend. So I'm gonna be acting a fool this whole weekend. But what you had mentioned around the body electric school, it's one of the things that we do in the school is we get folks to really, it's not only just about their genitals and not only just about the heroes. It's about getting folks accustomed or reintroduced or just in participation with their bodies. And a lot of people, we use erotic as a way to get people to sign up. And then once they go through a workshop or they go through a weekend, they realize, oh, there's community there, and there's people that I generally see eye to eye with. And there's some lore around the school and history around the school that, like, as you said, it's been over 40 years of people really jumping into this work. [00:04:45] Speaker B: Yeah, it's remarkable. Okay, so, you know, it's. So we're, you know, we're approaching. The school's approaching. Well, it's in its 40th year celebration. I want to kind of go back in time, because I know that when. When I used to tell people, oh, like, I'm the director of marketing for an erotic school, they're like, what did you say? What's that? What's an erotic school? Right? And so I imagine I. Other people are curious, like, how do you find your way to this work? You know, like, how do you get here? So I'm curious, you know, take me back to, like, earlier years, you know, because my guess is you probably didn't see yourself doing this work later in life. Like, you weren't young, and like, oh, when I grow up, I'm going to be, like, a somatic sex educator, et cetera, et cetera. So, like, you know, take me back in time. Take us back in time. [00:05:50] Speaker A: Well, I will burst your bubble and say I did. [00:05:54] Speaker B: Oh, really? [00:05:55] Speaker A: Yeah, no, I'll share this story. Yeah, I share this with all, like, every time I teach specifically about the electric event, especially celebrating the body erotic, which is a great class. It's for men, women, all genders. Everybody could take a CBE. But when I was. When I was. I grew up in Brooklyn, and, you know, when I was a kid in my neighborhood, I kind of was the ringleader of all the boys. So I used to get all the boys to come to my basement. We used to undress, we used to listen to music. We used to dance around, undressing each other, rubbing up against each other's bodies. It was all very innocent. We were all the same age. So if anyone has issue with that, relaxed. It was very honest, curious, interesting. And so I did that for a long time, every summer. It was just kind of like my thing. And then, of course, you know, my mother shows up one day and shames the fuck out of me, and that was the end of that. But I've always. Since I was a kid, I've always been like, kind of. I always like being the ringleader or the person that's setting up something or that's creating something, whether it's a story, whether it's a yard sale, whether it's. So I was always that kid. And even in high school, I was that kid. And so I've always had that sense. [00:07:25] Speaker B: What did that look like in high school? [00:07:28] Speaker A: Well, in high school, you know, I want to say I'm really unique compared to a lot of my peers. High school, if I could go back to a period of time, I would go back to high school, because high school, I had fun. I came out at an early age, and I had boyfriends, and I had drama, and I had hormones. [00:07:51] Speaker B: What year would that have been? [00:07:53] Speaker A: This was from 88 to 92 now. [00:07:58] Speaker B: Okay, that I am like. That must have been a big deal back then. [00:08:04] Speaker A: Yeah. And if anybody knows Brooklyn, I went to high school in Bensonhurst. That was like Guidoville. It was just like all straight jockey dudes. But I fortunately went to a school that was very. The benefits of growing up in New York was that the school system, I mean, when I was there, it was great. The school systems were so integrated with so many different cultures. I had everybody in school, black, white, chinese, asian, south asian. We had. I had friends of all different races and colors. And, you know, it was just what it was. It was what it was. And so I had a lot of, you know, opportunity to be around a lot of people. Fortunately, um, there was just. There was other queer people, and we get. We gravitated towards each other and we kind of hung out. And there was enough of us to have frenemies and, like, you know, the best girlfriend, the frenemies and so that was it. I think what helped me out immensely was, um, when I was coming out, and that was a really big period of time, like, of HIV and AIDS and safe for sex was, like, the thing. I mean, I was terrified of it, but it didn't stop me from, you know, experimenting and having, like, you know, emotional entanglements with people. What. What had helped me a lot was I got one. I had a lot of mentors. I had a lot of older folks. And when I say older, I mean, like, thirties, forties. But I had a lot of older folks that were very, very protective and really good role models to me. [00:09:54] Speaker B: How did you come by those mentors? [00:09:56] Speaker A: Well, there was. I mean, I've always, you know, it was either, like, you know, I would be attracted to some older guy, 30 or 40, and then I would meet all these people. I really. I didn't have. I don't have that experience of being taken advantage of around with older people. Like, I. For some reason, I just feel like maybe it's the angels, the higher powers, or whatever, that I just had a lot of folks that were just like, I want to help you. I want to be around you. And so. And I know that's not the case for everybody, right? And it wasn't like I was not. I didn't avoid shady places. I was at some pretty dubious places. I think one of the other thing that helped me. Washington. I met this dude. I don't know why I just said, dude. I met this. That was. I want to say his name was Anthony, but I just remember his face. He was italian. He had the biggest nose ever. Beautiful nose. And he took me to the Hetrick Martin Institute, which was, at the time, on the west side freeway in the west Village. It was right off of Christopher street. Now, the Hetrick Martin Institute, if anybody doesn't know this, it is part of the Harvey Milk High School. Hendrick Martin Institute is an institute in New York that helps and supports LGBTQ youth. And this was back in the day. They had, like, a saram shackle kind of space right across from the piers. It was very funny. And they basically had a drop in center for teenagers from all over the boroughs. And so I would just show up, and I. I kid you not, there were, like, queens that used to walk, balls that used to be there. There were kids from Staten island, kids that got kicked out of their homes, drag queens. I mean, this was like an all under. It was from 21 and under. So I got to meet all these New York urban kids and kids that didn't have the same privilege as I did. They would come out of. Get kicked out of their homes, and so. And then they had a high school there, and it was a high school for kids that didn't want to be in the regular public system. I didn't do that, but I did. I took advantage of a lot of the drop in stuff, and I took a coming out class. I took, you know, they supported us immensely. And I feel like I look back, and at the time, I didn't think. I didn't think of it, but I look back and I think, wow. Like, I really landed in some really awesome spaces that has helped me today be who I am. [00:12:50] Speaker B: I'm going to ask you kind of, like, a related question, but a sort of curveball question, which is, what do you attribute that to? Are you. Are you a religious person? Were you ever a religious person? Are you a spiritual person? How do you identify? And, like, what do you attribute this, I'm going to call it grace, to what would you say? [00:13:14] Speaker A: Well, it's. It's been a practice for a long time. I mean, I grew up. We were very religious in the household. I did go to catholic school for, like, a minute. Like a minute, and. And, you know, church for my family. So my mother, who was like, off the boat sicilian woman, like, she was very, like, God throws thunderbolts. She was very zeusian God, like, you're bad, and you're gonna go to hell, and the gods are gonna whatever. And so there was a lot of, like, I don't know if you would look at the Bible. It was like, at the end of the Bible, stuff coming through my mom's mouth. Like, it was just like, we're all gonna die, and you can't trust anybody. And, you know, but she never went to church. And my father was just not. It wasn't. Religion wasn't so pushed in our faces. So I kind of grew up kind of, I want to say agnostic y, believed in it, but I really, truly also bought into the whole thing that because I'm a fag, I'm bad, or I never thought about that with masturbation, that was just never the case. But I think being gay, like, I'm bad. But it also didn't wreck me, because I have worked with clients and I've worked with lots of people that they have way more religious trauma. Like, for me, it was just kind of like, all right, you know, like, you know, I probably go to hell if there's such thing as having a hell. But over time, you know, I had. I'm in recovery. So I've been sober for a very long time. At an early age, I got sober, and so, which I needed to. And so one of the things going to twelve step program is this kind of relationship with a higher power, relationship with something more than you. And I realized over time, and I'm still nothing. I'm still agnostic. But through several years in my life, I decided to, like, you know, delve into a lot of other stuff. I went to a gay jewish temple for a while in LA. I went to Vedanta Center. I went to meditation. Like, I started, like, trying to figure out where do I belong, right? Like, what religion do I belong to? And I was always envious of, like, I had a lot of queer people in my life. They're like, I, you know, I, you know, I do meditation. I went to India. Now I, you know, I pray to Ganesh every day. And someone's, you know, I have folks that I know that they've converted to Judaism and, you know, they're. They're celebrating the holidays. Like, I see a lot of friends like that. And I used to envy them. I used to be like, I wish I had that feeling of connection to religion. And then I realized that what. What's possible for me is that if I just practice, like, the difference between fear and faith. And so, like, I could either walk around my life feeling scared all the time and not trusting, not knowing, or just have this faith that, like, okay, you know, our lives are temporary and very temporary. And I. I just kind of go on that. I go on that road of, like, all right. You know, I generally, by default, am more of a, like, nervous, kind of anxious person. And so I think, do I just want to be like that all the time? And has that benefited me in any way? So when I think about if I had to put myself in a category, it's like, yeah, I'm kind of spiritual, but that even seems egotistical. I would say that, like, when I talk to folks like this that are having a dilemma around religion or higher power or God. Some people you can't even say the word God in front of because the assholes tighten up. What I usually say is, do you believe in gravity? They're like, yes. Like, can you see it? Like, no. Can you? You know, are you experiencing it right now? Yeah. I said, if we didn't have it, honey, we'd be up in the fucking stars. You know, we'd be icicles, you know, up in the zenith and so I just said, so, you know, sometimes I just think, oh, gravity is. Gravity is. My God. Like, that's all. That's the best I could do someday is like, oh, I still have gravity. You know? We still have gravity because if we didn't have it, we'd be fucked. You know, we'd be on, I don't know, Uranus or Saturn or Pluto. I don't know. [00:18:18] Speaker B: You would say uranus. [00:18:21] Speaker A: I don't know. I don't know. Who doesn't have gravity? [00:18:25] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Wow. There's, like. Gosh, there's. As you're speaking, there are so many threads that I could tug on. So, high school, you're going to these workshops. You're diving into this, let's say, this space of personal development. Let's say you're developing yourself. You know, you're discovering yourself. Personal exploration. And then what. How do we land on. [00:19:19] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I mean, like, my. You know, my relationship with body electric as a faculty member is shorter than some other books. Right. I've been teaching for bioelectric school for a couple years now, and. But I have been teaching for a long time, and the. My superpower, I think, is that, like, I have always been this kind of, like, sponge of things that I really like. I mean, things I don't like or people I don't like. I just don't have time. Right. And sometimes I judge myself. Relax. I think, oh, maybe I should be more, you know? But we have a short life. We have a short life. And so I've taken a lot of information, and, you know, the unique thing about me was that I just. I went through university, through college for a couple years, and I was like, this is just not for me. And I. [00:20:22] Speaker B: What did you study? [00:20:26] Speaker A: Nothing. Philosophy and psychology and yoga. Like, it was just. I didn't want math. I didn't want history. Like, I wanted things that, like, I was into. [00:20:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:20:40] Speaker A: I was just like, you know, I can't do this. So I never really got a degree or university, you know, like. And that I think, you know, that where if I look back, I'm like, oh, yeah, I really want to do that. You know, I think I have, like, enough credits to get it. I just have to take a math class, I think. [00:20:56] Speaker B: Oh, and you're saying you do want to. You do want to get it. [00:20:59] Speaker A: I mean, eventually it would be fun to just have, like. But, you know, a certificate's a certificate, right? And I guess it could help people get jobs in certain places. But I'm just not the conventional place that's going to, you know. Um, so I learned a lot just by doing a lot of stuff. Like, I was just kind of out and about and learning a lot and going and experiencing a lot of stuff, especially when it came to, like, sex and intimacy and relationship. It's just like, do it, just do it. Get involved, get into messy relationships, breakups, makeups, be jealous, be insecure, discovered, oh, am I a monogamous person? Am I non monogamous? Like, all of these things I learned by doing and jumping in it and not being afraid of it. And so it's like, oh, wow. I have learned certain things. I learned certain things. I don't want certain things. I do want certain things. I haven't really accepted yet that I still may do and still fuck up, but it's kind of like a learning practice. And somewhere along the way, I was living in LA. I was in LA for 15 years. I had went to, like, a hypnotherapy class. They were offering this course at this pretty well educated hypnotherapy school. And I remember I went and I loved it. And I loved it because it was about, it was not only about the hypnosis and the mystery of hypnosis and past life regression and, like, all this stuff that was just like very woo and very, like, out there and. But I realized, like, when I, one of the teachers, I remember the first day I went and I don't know why I volunteer, because I'm not the first person to volunteer for things, observing everything before I can, like, and I volunteered and he put me in hypnosis and it was just like, oh, my God, this feels so good, right? This feels wonderful, right? I want to learn how to do this to people. And so I went and I took this course over a year and a half, and I learned how to be like, a clinical hypnotherapist. But that said, I still was like, oh, there's something more here, right? It was about languages, guided imagery. It was helping people. It checked every box. And then I, what did I do? I put my shingle out after I got my little fucking piece of paper. Because, you know, you spent all this money to just get a piece of paper, really? And people started, this was in West Hollywood at the time, and if anybody's listening, West Hollywood, Washington, way gayer before. Before Vanderpump joined in. Yeah. So it was very gay. It was very queer. It was very cheap. You could afford stuff there. And I ended up, like, putting my shingle. I got a. I rented a little space from a therapist, and they basically, basically, all these folks started calling me up about sexual stuff, like, not like sex work, but, like, literally, I'm having erectile difficulties. Can you hypnotize me to help me? I'm, you know, like, having troubles with my partner. Can you hypnotize me? Can you. Like, it was just like, whoa. Like, I learned how to help people quit smoking and get on planes and fear of heights and. And I thought I had all this clinical work, and then. Yet all these people were coming to me for sexually related issues or erotic issues. And I told a mentor at the time, and he just said, you know, maybe this is your. Maybe this is, like, what you're putting out. I was like, I'm not, you know, like. And so from there, I just went from doing that to teaching, like, I don't know, I just landed into, like, I started getting booked for a lot of different men's retreats and festivals and stuff. And I was just. [00:25:18] Speaker B: Were you listed somewhere or how did that work? [00:25:21] Speaker A: Well, no, it's just I was always. I was always, like, a hustler. I was always, like, telling people, oh, this is what I'm doing. And, you know, and people were just like, oh, do you want to teach a class? Do you want to teach a class? I think there's a group called California men's gathering. They. One of the guys said, hey, do you want to teach a class? Not at a gathering, but independently in West Hollywood. I was like, sure. And I just thought, nobody's going to show up to this class. It's hypnotherapy for shy. For. I wrote. It was hypnosis for shy men, right? I think that was the name of the class. It wasn't anything interesting. And we had, like, 40 guys show up, and I was just like, okay, there's a lot of shy people, lots of introverts. And from there, I just started doing a lot of workshops around that. And I started kind of getting into the flow of, like, you know, teaching and instructing and being in that environment. And from there, I remember I went to a men's festival, and I was teaching hypnosis classes all the time, right? I was doing hypnosis for sex issues hypnosis. And I started, it started kind of tapering off because I think everybody just was like, okay, this is great. It feels good. But, you know, and so as a joke, I thought, you know, if you put naked or nude in front of anything, you'll get people. It's just hands down, like, there's a lot of horn dogs and there's a lot of naturists and people that just want to be in the buff or have permission to be naked. Right. I think that's the biggest thing. People want to have that permission. And so I wrote, I'm doing a nude hypnosis class, and I'm going to tell you to this day, it was just like, I couldn't believe how many people showed up. It was like I had to bring more chairs out because there was just so many guys there. And then I just started doing more. More stuff around nudity and sexuality without not necessarily having. It wasn't as interactive as, like, body electric classes were, but a lot of people were getting a lot of stuff out of it. And then, you know, I just. It just. It just started to continue, and it started to kind of go from there and. Yeah, yeah. [00:27:45] Speaker B: Wow. Wow. Yeah. Once again, there's just. I heard you say hustle, and I want to acknowledge that because I I hear it, I get it, and I I respect it. And simultaneously, as I'm hearing you share, it's just so clear to me that the presence of something in your life, just the way things have unfolded, I'm like, wow, what a story. And there's probably all sorts of little things in between that kind of connect everything you've just shared as well. It's remarkable. Wow. [00:28:27] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's. It's, you know, looking back, I feel like. I feel like I can tell you if, you know, going back to that talk around spirituality and about, like, I have had so many. And I'm using this word like, less woo and more, just, like. Like, there's just been a lot of angels in my life, a lot of people in my life that were just, like, completely gung ho with me. And, like, I feel like I didn't even have to make an effort. They were just very kind and loving to me. [00:28:58] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:28:59] Speaker A: And, you know, when you're living in your body and you go through all this stuff, like, I can be messy, I can be moody. I could be bitchy. I could be hunty. You know, there's all these things I could be. And sometimes I'm my worst enemy, and sometimes I judge myself, and sometimes I don't think I'm, like, the best person in the world. But then I realized, like, there are so many people that see things in me that I don't see. And that's another thing around faith. It's like, I have to have faith that there are people in this world that see me, and maybe they're just seeing one version of me, or maybe they're just seeing the pure version of me. And so, like, I have to accept that and just be like, okay, you want to help? Help me. Right. And not being douchey about it. That said, I always like putting this out there because, like, I mean, I'm, you know, I don't look like your average person. I get a lot of, like, where are you from? Who are. Where. Where were you born? You know, like, I get a lot of that kind of subtle, like, subtle racism. Subtle? Like, oh, I can't figure out, or you're so exotic. So I get a lot of that. And I know that looking at it over the years, I also have seen the things that I didn't receive or the things that I've been passed up for that. Like, even the times where it's like, I have had lots more experience, but then the pretty white guy gets it. [00:30:33] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:30:33] Speaker A: Or the hot, buff white guy gets it. And I see it. I even see it now in certain cases, in places I work, you know, so. And I know that for me, sometimes it's just about naming it and just saying it and just placing it out there so that I could differentiate where it's like, okay, is it about this? Is it about this privilege? Right. A set amount of privilege? Or it could it just be like, you know, I'm just. You know, there's room for everybody, so other people have to get gigs and other people have to do stuff. So, you know, there's times where I choose my battles carefully, you know, when it comes to sexuality, when it comes to gender, when it comes to race, because I also know that, like, when I'm teaching a body electric event, when I'm teaching, I'm facilitating. I'm co hosting a men's festival in October for the second year. Like, when I'm doing things like this, I know that I'm not necessarily teaching anti racism courses. I am not teaching a gender equality course, and I am also not educated 100% with all that stuff. The only thing I know is my journey in life, really. I'm a. And maybe even that I could be a little biased because it's been waived with some privilege, some not privileged, and some, you know, and so sometimes I just have to choose my battles carefully and reach out to other people to have more educated spin to it. And that's my contribution, is that I can be like, okay, I don't want to create any further damage for people, but sometimes I generally just don't know. I just don't know. Like it's the unknown. Yeah. [00:32:40] Speaker B: You know, I'm going to go back in a moment to a couple of things, but before I do, I think I know you. I'm still discovering you. And also, I think I know you well enough to be able to say this, which is like, I really admire and celebrate the grace with which you navigate the not knowing and just your life in general. And you use this word earlier permission. And I personally really view you as, like, the living, breathing embodiment of that word. In how you show up in the world, in how you move through the. [00:33:36] Speaker A: World. [00:33:38] Speaker B: And in how you show up in spaces and with people, it's like there's a compassion and a grace and an authenticity that I experience. You to embody that when you're in the presence of it, makes it so easy to relax into your own being and then kind of move in the way that occurs to you. You do that so well. And even I remember going through the ambassador program with you, and there was, again, just this, like, humanness and this gentleness and this grace with which, and just a, again, like, this authenticity with which you invited us and also modeled to us and demonstrated as a way for us to go out into the world and share this work with people. You were embodying it, and I was like, oh, this just makes it all so much lighter and so much easier. And I get that. That's not just how you move in promoting workshops or sharing workshops or enrolling people into the work in the world or. Sorry. Into the work and into the school and all of that. But it's, but it's also like, it's also who you are, like, in the world, you know? Yeah. [00:35:02] Speaker A: Thank you. I appreciate it. I'm trying to receive. I'm trying to. [00:35:06] Speaker B: I know, I get it. [00:35:09] Speaker A: I was noticing my forehead getting sweaty. Take a compliment. You could take a compliment. [00:35:14] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. This is where that somatic training comes in. Yeah. [00:35:19] Speaker A: Yeah. I, uh. I, um. You know, I still think I'm messy. You know, I could, I can name that shit. I still think I'm an asshole sometimes. You know? If you can't name that for yourself, then, honey, you're Dululu. You know? It's kind of like, it's like, I know. You know, like, it's just like, even the other day, like, there's a, there's a person in my life. I'm in a, I'm in a very wonderful marriage with a man that I've been with for 14 years, and we've, we're polly and we're great, but really, when I say, you know, we're poly, we're in a marriage, it's basically like we're just, you know, you're a regular fucking couple. Like, I make dinner, we, you know, he gets on his phone, I get on my phone, we watch golden girls, we both go to sleep, and there's this, there's this really interesting man that's resurfaced in my life. And of course, I'm like, you know, I'm all this, like, I'm all this cool, calm and collective person. And then I'm like, oh, he hasn't caught me back or he hasn't messaged me. And the feels of insecurity and, like, all that stuff, and I'm just like, I'm like, oh, my God, I could flip in a dime. You know, I could flip so quickly from this. Like, oh, I got it all worked out to, like, I'm a mess. And that's the human experience. Like, I mean, people are people. And, like, we have just a shitload of emotions and stuff. And I think the practice for me that has been helping, especially lately in regards to, like, teaching, is that I just bielectric, which I have to appreciate. I love Tom. I really do love Tom currently. I just feel like he's, like, the only, like, bossy figure that I've had in a long time that I just feel like I could just be myself with and I could just be cool with. And, you know, I said I wanted to teach, like, a facilitation workshop, and it's just been like my, I like mentoring and I like teaching other teachers. That's, like my thing. Like, if I had to make that, like, a full term time business, I would probably be happy as hell. And so I taught this course, and, you know, and of course, you know, you have, like, this kind of structure, this flow, but it's really what it comes down to. It's like, who's in the room, who's around? Like, who's showing up? And so I like that participatory kind of, like, let's be in the moment and not be so rigid. And I think what has helped me, and I think what's benefited me is that with body electric, there's a lot of workshops that have been around for, you know, since the jurassic period, right? And I could teach those, some of them with my eyes closed. But for a long time, I was teaching alone and creating classes and, like, getting payment, putting it on all these sites to get people and wrangle everybody together. So I kind of learned a lot of different things, like how to approach people, how to do this, how to do that. But what had happened a couple years ago, body electric school was kind of. Its hub was kind of in the Bay area, and so I lived kind of in the tub, and they had Joseph Kramer started a men massaging men night. This was probably, like, 30 years ago, and a lot of the greats took it over. You know, there was just a lot of Joe Kramer, Joe Weston. There were just all these people. And I would go, and this was even before I went to a body electric class, right? I would go, and I would enjoy myself, and I learned all that stuff. And a couple of years ago, they always had body electric facilitators to teach or run these classes twice a month. It was just a massage night. It's just very, like, you know, but you had an undressing ritual. You had a two giant rounds of massage, sort of diawastrotic, but not really. And they were the guy who was teaching at the time, they just couldn't find anybody to take it over. Right. A lot of the volunteers were like, oh, no, I would volunteer, but I don't want to take it over. And of course, they said, well, let's, you know, ask Jojo. And I said, yeah, I'll take it over. And I would just. For three years, twice a month, I was running this three hour massage experience, and it was kind of, like, for me, I felt like that was my training, pre body electric, because all the language, everything that was body electric, I was doing. And this was not even. I had not even been to a CBP. And so. And in addition to that, at the same time, I did the sexological bodywork program, which was created by Joseph Kramer. And if anybody doesn't know this, basically, the sexological bodywork program is a CBE. Everything you learn in a CBE. [00:40:47] Speaker B: So I was gonna say, it sounds familiar. [00:40:50] Speaker A: Yeah. So everything that I learned before I actually became a teacher was just, like, prepping me to become a teacher for the body electric school. And so I'm kind of a little bit of an anomaly in the school, and I'm okay with it. Like, it's totally fine. There are a lot of folks that have just been, like, they have lived and breathed the school. Like, they taken CBE. They've taken every class, they've done their time as a coordinator, and then they become a teacher, and that was not my experience. Right. So there are times where I. There's been times where I've actually taught classes for body electric that I never even took. But I think for me, there's this adaptability I have as a teacher. That's my superpower, is that I can be in a space and I can adapt to the environment. And, you know, therapy helps with that if you find out, like, the shit that you're, you know, the walking on eggshells with a crazy mother or, you know, like, being a little queer boy in Brooklyn, you know, terrified of AIDS and getting gay bashed. Like, you learn. I learned how to read the room. I learned how to read the room. And it is a practice. It's not something that people have, because I have a lot of peers and I have a lot of teachers that they could only read a script. [00:42:26] Speaker B: Yes, yes. [00:42:27] Speaker A: They cannot read the room. [00:42:28] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:42:30] Speaker A: And one of the things I want to do as a. As a person that is going to help other teachers is like, honey, we need to. We need to read the room. [00:42:37] Speaker B: Okay? So I want to ask you a bit about this, and it's kind of. It's. It's. It's kind of a great segue, too, because I want to understand a little bit more about, like, how the work you do, how the work the school does, like, serves people, because, I mean, obviously you've been around the block. No. You know, pun intended. But it's like, what, given your experience of adaptability and being able to read the room, right. It's like, what do you notice makes that possible? Because I heard you say it, and immediately I go into my body, right? I'm like, okay, well, my own somatic awareness, my own capacity to settle into my body, for me, at least, is what has helped me become, like, being relaxed in my own body and my own being in my own experience seems to be what helps me be able to read the room and adapt. Right. And also loads of experience as a child growing up and being in environments that were, like, not always safe, not always stable, et cetera, et cetera. So, anyway, I'm curious. Yeah. What have you noticed about what makes that possible, you know? [00:44:09] Speaker A: Yeah, I think. Well, I think, like, for the regular civilian that doesn't know how to do it, I think it's a twofold thing, is that you kind of have to. I mean, you have to notice body language. Like, notice. Notice people, but. But it's more specific. It's. It's noticing even more, like, going a little bit further than just body language. Seeing the patterns and seeing, like, you know, for instance, I was. I'm teaching an online class. And, you know, online, like, I have gotten to the point where, like, now I can actually start to do this online now, which is actually really, like, rad because it's like, oh. Oh, shit. Like, and all these motherfuckers are. How they're muted. They're all muted. And I could still, like, start pinpointing. Oh, these people. There's stuff going on here. Yep. And so learning some body language, but also the difference between a teacher and an attendee is that a teacher is. And some people may argue with me on this, a teacher is like a parent at, like, a playground that you're. You could sit down and have your little quesadilla or whatever. You're eating on the bench and your child's playing and you're. You're eating and nourishing yourself and you're taking care of things, but you're also observing, like, is my baby okay? Right? And so sometimes being in class or being in a space, it's like, okay, everybody's doing their thing, and it's. Theirs doesn't belong to me anymore. Like, I can. I can say, hey, you know, we're going to learn how to drop this pencil. I'm going to show you how to throw this pencil on the ground. Once I put it, once it comes out of my mouth, and I show somebody, just, oh, this is how I do it. It doesn't belong to me anymore. And so a lot of times, I think a lot of times, unskilled teachers are so invested in their ego and so invested in how fabulous I look and so invested getting people to want to love them so much, which I have all of those. So I'm not immune to that. But there are times where it's just like, at the end of the day, it's kind of like, I don't need to be a savior. I don't need to take care of you. I need to, like, know that you are cared for, right. That, like, if you fall, I will be there, right. But I'm not gonna anticipate you falling and, like, hover, right? I don't want to be like, the, you know, insecure girlfriend, right? Like, I just want to be like, yeah, you learn. You're learning something, right? And so, you know, the benefit that I've had is, like, I have worked with a lot of. I've worked alongside. And if you would have told me this ten years ago, like, I mean, I'm going to be teaching with Joseph Kramer. I'm going to be teaching with Colin Brown. Like, if you would have told me this ten years ago, I'd be like, oh, no, no. But, like, it's like, there are people that I really admire and appreciate, and I'm going to be teaching with them side by side, and I'm collaborating with them. And it's like this real beautiful, like, relationship that ends, too. Like, working with somebody, there's an end point. You may work with them again, but it's like, it really is, like cohabitating in a relationship. And I've learned a lot from doing that. So, like, I'm not afraid to team up with people. I also have learned that, like, I don't want to work with certain people, right. People that I may not. Like, I don't trust, right. Or I don't. I I don't. Or I. My nervous system feels dysregulated around them. What I've also learned is techniques to get around that, too. Is that, like, sometimes I have to name shit. Sometimes I have to be vulnerable. Sometimes I have to say, like, I'm scared around you, and I'm welcoming that for other people, too. Like, if people feel that, if people feel like there's an intimidation or if they feel like I'm being a cunt, like, just let me know, right? Like, I have. I think the big practice that I've been doing these days is that reminding myself that I am a big boy and I can take care of myself and, you know, people can say stuff to me and it's like, yeah, I can feel wounded, but I don't have to be, you know, a cadaver in the middle of a war zone. You know, I could just like, all right, that's your opinion. And let's, you know, let me see if I have been a little bit controlling. You know, that's, you know, like, it's. It's a great experience. Like, I'm. I'm. Like I said, I'm doing this festival last year, I had this idea. I want to do this festival very similar to ignite, very similar to arous festival, very similar to. There's a lot of festivals. I just. I wanted to do something locally here because the Bay area has become a little more gentrified and a little less woo, but, and I wanted to do a kind of like an urban festival, like, where it was just like, I like the ignite and there's guys that do it in Berlin. It's just this kind of, like, you go, you get to meet a lot of people. You get to see a lot of wonderful teachers. And so a colleague of mine, ev. And I was telling him about this, and we were like, let's try this. And we did it last year in October. It's called the surf festival. And it was, like, successful. And it was beautiful. And we had, like, my. My idea of success is like, oh, my God. We had a lot of bodies of different types. Like, there were just lots of bipoc folk. There were younger people. There were older white men. Like, it was just like, I'm good with that. Like, that, for me, is like, that's a success. You could have this availability for everybody to show up. Right. Not just a specific type of person. And so we're doing this again this year, and now we're refining things, and we're getting. We're paying the teachers more. So there's a different. There's a different vibe and working, having a partner, that there are times where it's like, oh, no, we should do this. No, no, we should do this. And it could be very like, oh, right. And sometimes I have to step back and say, oh, this. Walking on eggshells, feeling, my mother's not in the room, honey, she's been dead for a while. Or, no one is saying I'm bad, and no one's saying I'm less than. It's just disagreements. Yeah. [00:51:41] Speaker B: Wow. So, like, your work, in what. In what ways have you seen people changed, healed, transformed by your work? And, like. And who's coming to you? You know? Like, who's. Who's coming to this work? Why are they showing up? And how are they changed by it? Yeah. [00:52:18] Speaker A: Yeah. And I might have to wrap up because I think I have another call. [00:52:22] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah, yeah. Thank you. [00:52:24] Speaker A: But I will answer that. That's actually with Tom. I just realized. Oh, my God. No, I think so. For me, you know, like, I generally. I generally. What I learned years ago was, and I learned this from a trans man that was. That came in and speak to us at the sexological body work. This was years ago. And they said, you know, when you finish this program, you're gonna wanna work with pussies and cocks and do cock strokes and you. Orgasmic yoga. You want to do all this stuff. And they said that eagerness is great, but you're not going to get clients. You're going to have to find your people. You're going to have to find the specific folks that you need to work with and that you can work with. Right. And so for me, it was just like, oh, that's a no brainer. Like, I'm just going to work with over 40 year old gay men. Right? That was my first thought. And the more specific I got, the more clients I got. Right? And so it's kind of like it's the opposite of a greek menu. Like, you know, you have so many options that you don't want to eat. Right, or you just get pickles in coleslaw and you're like, I don't know what to pick. Right. And so I got more specific. So I generally work with a lot of cisgendered men. Okay? Have I worked with non binary folks? A ton of them. Have I worked with trans men? A ton of them. Have I worked with cisgender women? Yes. Right? So people just come into my life and flow. I just. I'm specific about who I could work with because that's what I know. And it would be a disservice to people if I say, well, I'm really skilled at this and don't know it. Right? And so luckily, I've had the opportunities to work with trans men and non binary folk, and they have educated me. So there are times where, like, I break the third wall and just be like, okay, you need to explain this to me. Like, can you tell me, you know, tell me your story, tell me your history. Tell me what. What this means for you, right? Because it's like, I don't know. I don't know. It's kind of like when I talked to. This happened years ago. My. My husband's white. He's a white dude, right. You know, he grew up in Missouri and lived in the Bay area for years. And one day we were at, like, I was looking. You know, I didn't have my glasses on. I didn't look like Allen Ginsburg. I looked more thuggy at the time. Sweatshirt. And we went into a store together, and a security guard followed me. Right. Which is, like, most people don't realize, like, you know, security guards, police officers, you know, all of this. Like, it's just we. I noticed them. [00:55:34] Speaker B: I know, of course you know what I'm talking about. Yeah. [00:55:37] Speaker A: And so especially in the United States here, I mean, it's, like, even more. And so I remember this dude's, like, following me in the store, and, like, I was fucking with him. You know, I was just, like, I was fucking with him. But I also felt the shame and fucking, like, oh, my God, like, why are you doing this to me? Like, should I pull out my money or my credit cards? Like, what do I have to do. And then I remember telling my partner what? We drove home and he didn't get it. Like, he got it, but didn't get it. He was like, are you sure? You know, and I know that that's some of his bullshit and racism and whatnot. Yeah, but it's like, you know, like, some people, like, there's just, what I was trying to say is that, like, there are just some things that I don't get. Like, I am in the same category as, like, my husband was like, I don't get your story. I don't get the way you've lived. I don't get. But what I'm trying to do and what I'm practicing all the time is, like, bringing this openness to my body and to my heart and say, like, okay, well, tell me. Tell me your story, because I also know how to be othered, and I also know how to be, like, this sensitive queer boy. So there are things that I do know, and there's some empathy that I can feel, and there's some otherness that I can feel. So it's just about being open and also knowing, like, where. What can I handle? Like, what can I handle? What am I. What can I be the best at? As opposed to, like, I'm going to teach every single body electric class, right? More as. More, like, maybe I'm going to teach the classes that I'm actually really good at and that I can actually help people and. And get people's money's worth from the class. Yeah. [00:57:34] Speaker B: Wow. Well, I mean, on that note. Oh, Jojo, I. I'm. I've been gushing this entire time. Like, I just. I think you are so, so remarkable. And, I mean, we could have had this conversation for another 2 hours, you know? Like, there. I just. There's so much. It's so. It's so rich. You're so rich. Your life is so rich. Your story, the work you do, it's amazing. So I just want to say thank you so much for being here. I cannot. Like, for those of you who've been listening, I mean, go down the Jojo rabbit hole. Go down the body electric rabbit hole. I like. It's so worth it. I speak from experience. And thank you for who you are and for what you bring to this world, Jojo. And thank you for this beautiful conversation. [00:58:33] Speaker A: Yeah. And I just want to say, like, if you want to check out my. Just go to my website, somaticguide for men.com. and that's the number four. Don't ask me, but I. I'm just like, I don't mind people reaching out. Like, I'm not this kind of queen. That's just, like, you have to pay me to, like, you know, like, if you have a question or if you, like, you need, you know, like, of course I want to help you if you need mentorship or, you know, something like that. But it's like, I'm not mysterious in that way. Like, you could reach out to me on social media. Like, you. You know, like, I'm totally cool. Like, and if I. Yeah, just reach out if you liked it. If not, you know, thank you for listening. [00:59:18] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, thank you. And I'll be sure to, you know that, yeah, the links are all gonna be there to your website, your instagram, and your world, which is. Which, I just gotta say real quick, is, like, this beautiful, in my experience, this beautiful mix of, like, the work you do in the world and then this beautiful cheeky playfulness as well. I've seen some of your tiktoks and things like that, and it's just so good. So if you're watching or listening, right, like, just down the rabbit hole, go check it out. [00:59:53] Speaker A: Thank you, my dear. [00:59:54] Speaker B: Thank you, Jojo. We'll see you soon.