Episode Transcript
[00:00:05] Speaker A: Welcome to Gaiman Going Deeper podcast by the Gaiman's Brotherhood that showcases raw and real conversations about personal development, mental health and sexuality from an unapologetically gay perspective. I'm your host, Matt Lansdell, and joining me today is Nigel Pedalingham. Welcome.
Thank you to have you on the show.
[00:00:23] Speaker B: Yes, good to be here.
[00:00:24] Speaker A: So for those of you who don't know Nigel, Nigel serves as a guide supporting folk to navigate the rhythms of life. He shows up in life as a coach, ceremony leader and experienced trauma informed psychedelic facilitator, change maker and social justice advocate. In addition to being a loving husband, father, brother, son, friend and student, he is the founder of Magwe, a meeting place where we are invited to deepen our connections to self, to surrounding and to spirit.
He is also the current chair of the guide of Guild of Guides Netherlands, the professional association of legal psychedelic facilitators in the Netherlands.
That's awesome. Looking forward to picking your brain and creating a conversation about nesting. So this was actually a term that you brought to me. I hadn't heard of it before. In this context, it's all about creating platonic spaces for healing and authentic connection in the gay community. In this context, that's what we're going to be talking about it as.
What we want you as the audience to gain from this episode is the importance of non sexualized, safe and brave spaces for gay men to heal and grow together.
And by the end of this episode, you will also be able to identify what a nest is, how you could benefit from a nest, and where to find one or create one, if you're interested in the concept of nesting. So let's unpack it. I'm curious for you, what, what got you into this? What this, this concept of nesting, how did you discover it? Why is it important to you?
[00:01:53] Speaker B: It was kind of given to me as a beautiful gift. It landed one day when I was in the kind of contemplative state, let's say. And I just found it was actually a very embodied process. I found myself sitting in my hands just doing this cupping and I was sitting there looking at this going, this is a nest.
And all of a sudden, kind of years worth of work and contemplation just went kind of cling.
And it's like, this is it, this is, this is what I do, this is what I work with. And it just became this muse, this concept of the nest.
And for me it's. It is a really embodied concept. And when I like to talk about the nest, when I, when I connect with the nest as. As a muse, let's say my. My hands do automatically do this, and you just feel what the nest is by. By doing that and making that space with one's hands, let's say. So, yeah, it was just. It was this beautiful gift one day that's unfolded into a muse, a concept, a kind of way of showing up and a way of offering.
[00:03:08] Speaker A: Yeah, I like that. When you first introduced the concept to me, I felt like a pull to want that, you know, like, there's a desire to have a cozy community or a cozy container where I can show up and be fully myself. And it doesn't have to be built in the context maybe, that I'm used to in the gay culture, which is like, sexualized clubs, parties. And there's always this kind of concept of, like. I don't know if judging each other is the right word, but just checking each other out, sizing each other up, and there's this energy of, like, maybe even competition, these sorts of things. So when I hear the word nest, it's almost like you're taking that completely out of. Out of it, and you're coming together, and it's like an open container where a lot of that stuff is just dropped away. Is that. Is that accurate?
[00:03:55] Speaker B: Yeah. So it's a dropping away, and it's a reconnecting with other values which maybe aren't present in typical spaces. So we're bringing in those values of slowing down and connecting, and that could be connecting and creating the spaces to connect. So that could be connecting with ourselves.
It could be connecting with the others that find themselves in these spaces. These nests. And all of these nests are different. Right. We're creating different nests for different people at different time. And there's. It always comes with invitations. So we create these nests for people to come and land in. And it's that process of landing, of slowing down, of feeling like you've arrived and then bringing in these other values. So let's bring in the value of compassion. Let's bring in the value of honesty and respect. Let's bring in the value of openness and vulnerability, of gentleness and trust. You know, trusting ourselves and trusting that the other, in this case, men, that have arrived in these spaces have their place there and that we can offer each other something.
[00:05:10] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:05:11] Speaker B: Through the spirit of those values that I just mentioned.
[00:05:16] Speaker A: Yeah, I love it. I'm like, yes, Yes, I want this.
[00:05:21] Speaker B: What.
[00:05:21] Speaker A: What do they look like? So for people that are like, you know, like, I'm not. I'm not Getting it. They're like, you know, I don't understand what this is. Maybe they have no experience with retreats or these sorts of things. Like what is it Tangib like if you want to paint that picture.
[00:05:35] Speaker B: So in the, in the tangibility of my work, for example, yeah, it could be the offering of retreats specifically designed for gay men. I run a couple of times a year. For example, a sacred ceremonial retreat that does have a psychedelic component to it, but also a whole host of other ceremonial practices, connecting processes, working together in nature, working together in, in ritual and ceremony, working together with, with, with psychedelic medicines. In that context, that's one nest. Let's say I also have run in the past gay men storytelling events and programs. So again, it's that concept of coming together in a small and intimate space where we connect to each other through that value of openness and vulnerability, but through the medium of storytelling. So a lot of this work that I do is reconceptualizing the campfire, let's say the ancient practice that our ancestors have been doing since time began of sitting around the campfire and connecting. So that could be telling stories, it could be completely just sitting in silence with each other.
It could be many different things, but it's bringing those ancient values kind of into, into the modern world. It could be coaching sessions, you know, creating again that safe container where in a one on one environment someone can come in and just land for a moment and be seen and be witnessed and be heard. And a lot of this time I'm also working really with the value of, of stillness and silence. So it's a bit kind of like what happens in the, in the spaces in between. And that's also where the kind of, that concept of the nest comes in. In synchronicity with kind of the nest. We use the term weaving quite a lot. And if you imagine a weaved space, there's lots of gaps in a weave, in a weave space. And it's often working with those, those spaces where the emergence of, of sacred appears and using that kind of sacred invitation to heal. And this can be both physical and it also can be in the digital realm as well. So again, how do we bring the circle, how do we bring the nest, how do we bring these spaces into the digital realm so we can all connect to meet in those spaces as well as both in the physical?
[00:08:07] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that's a good segue because, you know, for people that are familiar with the context of the Gaiman's Brotherhood, we offer our sharing circles, our Connection circles, which. These are nests. They're intentional spaces where we prioritize and value storytelling. Connection, authenticity, vulnerability, these sorts of things. So I think, you know, the two words that came through when you were sharing for me were intentional. Intentionality in the space. There has to be a lot of intentionality. And for some reason, the second word was softness. There's a softness to the space. Not saying it's always going to be soft or sometimes there can be edges, but the. The intention would be to create a soft place to land so people can feel safe to show up and be. Be authentic.
[00:08:48] Speaker B: Exactly. It's very much about connecting with what our, let's say, our somatic needs are. How is our nervous system? How do we provide those spaces of softness where you can just come in and really just kind of go, you know, because we carry so much in our bodies through the environments in which we live, the modern world, the pressures on our shoulders from all different angles. And what these spaces are about is again, just creating that invitation of softness where you can just come and lean into that for a while. And as you said, it doesn't mean it doesn't get prickly sometimes, but it prickly with the soft, you know, and that and that in. Again, imagine. Imagine what a nest looks like. It's kind of. It's like a. It's like an embrace, isn't it? It's like a hug. So you're invited to really kind of come into that and lean into that and then see what starts to evolve and emerge from being there.
[00:09:44] Speaker A: Yeah.
Yeah. I think a lot of gay men are familiar with the opposite of this concept. Right. We grow up in society and there's prickliness everywhere, and we become hypervigilant. We're looking around for where it's unsafe, and when we look for what's unsafe, we'll find what's unsafe and, you know, hypersensitivity to rejection, these sorts of things. So it's almost like the nest seems like it's offering a place where we can come and we can breathe, we can sigh, we can let our nervous system land and maybe even begin to experience ourselves for the first time as regulated and connected to. And that we fully belong for just being ourselves.
Because even. Even in gay contexts with me, I don't necessarily feel like I belong and can be myself with just because someone's gay. Right. That does. That's not enough for me to just feel like, oh, yeah, I belong with this person. Because we share the same sexual orientation.
Because there can be elements of, like, I said judgment or attraction or rejection, competition, these sorts of things can really erode at that feeling of belonging and safety. So how important is it for these nests to be non sexualized? I'm curious, like, or, and, or is there nests where, where sexual. It becomes sexualized. And how does that differ or impact the nest?
[00:10:59] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a, it's a good question. For me and the work that I do, it's actually very important that they're non sexualized. So some of the words you mentioned there are all valid. They're all valid emotions, they're all valid reactions. It wouldn't be unsurprising, let's say, if you found yourself in a nest with a group of queer men that you may be attracted to one or two of them. That's a normal human emotion, human reaction. So what we're invited to in these spaces is not act on them for the time that we're sitting in these spaces. We're there to connect through other means. We're there to heal, we're there to grow and to, to do many, many different things. But in this space, in these nests, we can, let's park sexuality and sexual impulse for a while.
And for me, this is something that is, is so important and has actually been on this journey sometimes quite shocking that people have expected something else. So I think we talked about this when we first met. I was, I presented these, these retreats that I do for queer men. And then a while later I was talking to someone about them and the topic of intimacy and sex and whatever came up and I was a bit like, oh, hold on. Yeah, we're on a completely different wavelength here. You're expecting something that I hadn't even considered. You know, it didn't even cross my mind in this particular setting or in these particular settings that that would even be a thing.
Because I was coming at it from the perspective of healing spaces. It didn't even occur to me. So for me, yeah, it's, it's very clear in my mind anyway. And when I'm working with the men that come into those, it's very much communicated from early on that these are non sexualized spaces and we're, we're there to connect through. Yeah, through Platonic means, through our, our hearts, through our minds, through. Yeah, it can be still through movement, but it doesn't have to involve that kind of next level of intimacy. And that's not to say there aren't going to be nests elsewhere that maybe bring that in, but not in my work.
[00:13:13] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And that's why I was excited to have you on, because there are so many spaces in our, in our culture where we can find that we can find sexualized community. It's everywhere.
And, but non sexualized communities, not. And I just think the importance of having that is, it's huge. I think a lot of, a lot of gay men are really good at seeking out sexual connection, but they find it hard to seek out platonic connection where there can be trust and boundaries and these sorts of things and even I would even say sensuality because I can be sensual with my friends and it's not sexual. It's, you know, a nice hug or even a long contact hug where our nervous systems are sinking. I see that as a sensual act. Right. Our souls are coming together, our nervous systems are coming together and I think that can be healthy. But when it becomes a hyper fixation on, on the sexual component, I think it can be unhelpful in certain contexts.
[00:14:07] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And as you just said, yeah, the, the, the value of a hug, the value of, of a, of a, of a consensual hand on a, on a, on a knee or something. Yeah, beautiful. Beautiful. And let's just, let's just work with that. And the fact is, even if people, even if you aren't seeking out sexualized spaces, often they just kind of arises. And I've, I know and I have talked to many men in did the different things that I've done. There has been this yearning, let's say this yearning for these spaces, but just not knowing what they are, how to find them, do they even exist? And this goes, this goes even beyond gay men, doesn't it? Goes back to a kind of a yearning in wider society of finding your home, finding your nest, finding the place where you're safe, finding the place where you can meet each other on that level. But it then becomes something even greater amongst our community. And there aren't so many of these spaces that are easily findable and accessible.
[00:15:12] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah. It's almost like building containers of intimacy. That's what it feels like for me, like platonic therapeutic intimacy, which is just so yummy.
So yummy. For those of you who've never experienced that, where, you know, you, you're in a, in a sharing circle and you're, you know, there's tears and there's laughter and there's lots of eye contact and open heartedness and these sorts of things. It, it's really transformative.
Psychedelic or non psychedelic. It's. The heart is open and Expansive. And I think the heart is what heals. And when we come together in these really beautiful ways and our hearts are open, it's, it's magic. It truly is magic. I've only experienced it a couple times throughout my, my life personally, I've held them containers like that. It's a little different when you're holding the containers as opposed to being a participant, but it's, it's, it's still very special.
[00:16:07] Speaker B: Yeah. And you bring up something really important there in that, in that specialness and magic that happens when you're also witnessing. So this doesn't all have to be your process. This doesn't all have to be you and your vulnerability. And you go into places that, you know can be quite overwhelming. Especially the first time you go into these sorts of spaces. Some of the words you use, they're sharing opening circles. I can imagine for some people listening to this, they're a bit like, ah, you know, yeah, I can't do that. I'm not ready for that. But often when you come into those spaces, you know, it's all done on in the spirit of invitation.
It's not that you have to come there and perform. So sometimes, especially if we're doing programs, let's say, that have got, you know, a longer trajectory to them the first time you come, maybe you don't say much, maybe you don't share stuff, but you'll still be moving into that slowly, into that heart opening space and what you will gain or learn or through the witnessing of others, stepping into those places. When you witness the tears of others, when you witness a breakthrough of someone else, as you said, it's, it's magical. We're going into the magical realm there. And I'm so happy you brought that word up because it's a word that I like to claim and own because it's not a word we hear very much in, in the modern world, let's say. But yeah, let's bring it back because this is, this is, this is a form of magic.
[00:17:35] Speaker A: It really is. It really is.
I like the notion of vicarious compassion. I find a lot of gay men struggle with self compassion. And we come, we come from a lot of shame. And it's really hard to have compassion when we are in toxic shame. And I think when you're in a group context in a nest and you see somebody having a breakthrough moment or connecting with their inner child and tears are flowing, we can heal by witnessing their healing because we can connect a little closer to compassion for them. We can connect a little closer to compassion for ourselves. And I think because compassion is compassion, we feel it. It's a, it's a, it's a heart opening feeling. It's rooted in love. And it doesn't matter if it's being geared towards other or self. If we can feel it happening in our body, it means we're capable, we have capacity to feel it. And I see this in a lot of the group coaching, group counseling work that I do is, you know, when somebody has a, a tender moment of vulnerability, that it softens everyone in the group. Right. So yes, it's. That's the power, that's the magic of the nest. Right?
[00:18:41] Speaker B: Yeah, very much. And it's a real kind of central value to that. But it's really.
When we talk about compassion, I always really like to kind of talk about that three levels of it. Compassion for the system around us, Compassion for the greater, you know, the greater, let's say the, the collective. And then compassion for the others that are sitting closest to you.
And then not forgetting, of course, self. And often the self is one of the hardest ones we're able to feel compassion for. And it can be very.
[00:19:13] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:19:14] Speaker B: Unusual and a bit strange at the beginning to even connect with that, with that feeling. So as you say, the vehicle of others can be a route to the self.
[00:19:26] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I want to honor the people that are listening, like you said, that are like, oh, I could never do that. That sounds scary. I would never put myself in a context like that. It would be too vulner.
How do you nurture people into a nest so they feel safe and.
[00:19:40] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, it's a beautiful question. I think one of the things I work with a lot and something I value much is slowness and going at the pace that everybody, everybody's got a different pace. Everybody's at different stages of their, of their journey.
And we have to honor and value where everybody's at on their journey. So it's about going at that pace of slow. Let's slow down. There's a rush everywhere. There's a rush in the world we live in. There's a rush to consume. There's a rush to grow and heal. We have to, we have to do it at the honor the pace that we can go at. So it's about having different offerings that will appeal to people at the stages of their app. That could just be reading something that you've written, I've written and it just, you know, lands a few pennies drop from reading something first and then There could be an invitation to, to come to something. Maybe one on one is a better place to begin with, to build trust, to build. Do exercises that can help someone begin to connect with their embodied self. I noticed you earlier on, you did this, you did this sigh when you can. When you kind of thought of going into the nest. That. Huh, let's value, let's value that sigh. Let's value what our body is actually, how it's respond. How our body is responding, not how our mind is responding. And then slowly build that up. And then for me, it's about offering just the invitation there. Is this nest available and is it? Yeah. Are you. Yeah. If you want to come, come.
Maybe you don't want to come, right? Maybe the idea is it's about planting seeds sometimes as well. So sometimes it's a bit. Oh, I like the sound of that. And then you kind of, oh, yeah, no, not yet. That's a fine reaction. Then just let it sit for a while. And eventually, yeah, eventually, maybe you're ready. Maybe it will take you six months, maybe it will take a year. So it's about working through the spirit of kind of invitation and not rushing and just coming.
Come when you're ready. But at the same time, going back to that thing we mentioned earlier on about the prickle and the nest isn't always soft and cozy. Sometimes it is a bit spiky and sometimes we have to. Sometimes we have to jump out of nests to go out of new nests again. If you imagine, if you imagine fledgling birds, you know, they're cared for in this nest, they're born there, they're fed there, and eventually they get to a stage where they're a bit. They're too big and it's time to fly, my fledglings. And you have to jump out, you have to jump into the unknown. So there's something about that as well, about kind of balancing that, taking time, slowing down, but also recognizing it. I do have to step into the uncomfortable eventually because it is through the uncomfortable. It is through the unknown. It is sometimes with the difficult that the next stages will evolve.
[00:22:48] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Kind of almost the term progressive nesting comes to mind. It's like, you know, working with the nervous systems, I think of gay men is like the initial thing, like how can, how can we create safety in the nervous system so you can come out of the comfort zone into what I call like the learning zone, anxiety zone. It means you've gone too far. Right. So in this learning zone, how can we be open to learning about ourselves? Learning about other people. And I also heard that you're. You're providing almost like an expression menu. Like, because there's not just one way of expressing through voice or through, like through word. It can be different ways. So maybe when we're holding spaces for expression, it's about offering different ways to. You know, for my online groups with. When I bring gay men together, not everybody feels comfortable sharing in front of. In front of. So we. I use the zoom chat option. If you want to share yourself in that option, that's fine. And it can be a nice way. And then, you know, usually by session three or four, they're like, more comfortable to share because there's trust that's been starting to. Been built. Right. So trust is. Once trust is there. It's amazing what. What can happen in a group context when trust starts to build. It's powerful.
[00:24:00] Speaker B: Yeah. What's coming up for me hearing that is just also finding different. Different avenues of being, as you said, different avenues of being able to express. So asking that big question, how are you? What do you want to share? Is just an enormous one for many people. So one of the tools I use, for example, especially in online groups, is using like a selection of images at the beginning of any session going, okay, let's look at all these different images. They're all different photos of different things. What one just calls you right now, and let's not overthink it. What one immediately is your eye or your heart drawn to. And let's just talk through that image.
That image talks to me because I don't. Yeah, the colors really shine. Or I recognize something in there that reminds me of something that happened to me a week ago. And just by kind of D D cognitive, trying to not get too cognitive about how we are just using other. Other routes just kind of helps the opening up of just being able to say something.
[00:25:01] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I agree. And sharing from the body. I do this in authentic relating. When I teach authentic relating. We're sharing from the body. We're trying to stay out of story as much as possible. And we're sharing from the body a heck of a lot less expectation or perfectionism that can be brought into that. Because it's like, oh, my body is showing up in this way right now. I'm feeling tension in my chest. Right. And we just share that. We reveal that that's a beautiful expression.
[00:25:25] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:25:25] Speaker A: And it's a way to. To be witness in what you're experiencing, whereas the mind's going to say, oh, you have to say the right thing, you have to be perfect, you have to articulate yourself in this way. And when we can like really lower the expectation of. It doesn't have to be from this cerebral place. It can be purely somatic expression, that fine can be really helpful.
[00:25:45] Speaker B: Yeah, but again it's, it's a very. For many people that's a very, yeah. Non daily practice, let's say just to be there and not, not feel you have to answer as you say through, through words or through, through a cognitive process, through a story. It's quite uncommon in the society we live in. And then if you haven't learned this person's kind of, yeah, I'm sitting here and I feel this swelling in my chest or I feel this, my, yeah, my leg is, is twitching and bouncing up and down without straightaway kind of going, what does that mean? Why is it doing that?
We don't need to, we don't need to do that. It's just, let's just recognize just what's happening now in this moment and let that be enough.
[00:26:34] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I like that. I'm curious for you, why, why is this important for gay and queer men? Like, why do you see this specifically really necessary for them?
[00:26:44] Speaker B: Can maybe it's useful just to bring this back kind of to give an example to that. And I often like to just tell that through the stories of myself as to. Because often when we, when we offer these things, people who are practitioners in this space, often it comes because of the experiences we've had in, in life.
And for me, why these spaces and these nests are important is very much around this concept of safety.
And it's something that I've recognized over kind of looking back through the various chapters of my life that for a great many of those chapters was this lack of safety. And then what came through that lack of safety as a result.
So having got to that stage of recognizing how I was reacting, how my nervous system was playing up, how the burnouts were happening, were often the root of that for me at least was this lack of safety and then that lack of authenticity that comes through not feeling safe. And then the invitation now to just provide certain spaces that can provide that, that safe and cozy space where hopefully you can start to feel trust and you can start to feel safe so we can just loosen into the, into the present, into the present moment. And for me it took quite a long time in my life to find those spaces. And then, especially if we then bring it into the context of gay community, I think for me it Was a bit like, I don't, I don't really want to be in this environment.
Or maybe sometimes I do. If we're talking about, let's say clubs or bars or whatever, maybe sometimes I do, but a lot of the time I don't.
So. Yeah, where, where are those spaces where we can come together and meet like minded folk, but just in a completely different context?
[00:28:48] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I like that, I like that.
I think, you know, in the work that I do in group context, I see a lot of gay men with belonging injuries feeling like they don't belong. And I think it's, it makes sense because we feel like we don't belong to the larger society. So that's the original wound. And then we might be rejected by our family or peers and where, so there's a lot of rejection. Rejection creates injury, belonging, belonging injuries.
Um, so I'm, I'm curious for you in these, in these situations when they arise where maybe you have people that are like lone wolves or you know, they've decided to come and come out of their comfort zone, but then they're in a nest and they're like, this is just feeling like too much, like I can't, they can't let themselves belong. Right. So they, they look for differences why they're not belonging and they, they bring this kind of energy forward. How would you work with somebody like that? I'm curious, like.
Yeah, help them, help them find a sense of belonging. Because I know that's a big question, but maybe we can just unpack it together.
[00:29:50] Speaker B: Yeah, I think where if we just go kind of what sometimes sits under a bit of that is also just the kind of this, this societal issue that we have around kind of individualization and working as individuals in the greater kind of collective. It's what we're brought up to be in kind of the capitalist Western society, let's say. So it's about also starting to bring in those value of community, starting to bring in those values of recognizing that we are communal beings. It doesn't mean you have to live in a communal sense or always be around others, but to just maybe to start to, to lean into that a little bit. I would say very much that I come from this kind of lone wolf perspective over the years and it's still a natural tendon. Yeah, it's still a natural tendency, but I think I've refined, framed that now and kind of, yeah, I, I like to be alone and I have to be alone, but at the same time I'm starting to recognize that the cave, you know, the invitation of going into the cave and retreating, which is often my default when things get a bit overwhelming, is run away to the cave that then you can, you can. I also have now started to recognize that the cave can become a bit of a, a bit of a trap. And the moment that I'm bold enough and kind of, you know, the penny drops in. So, oh, I've been in my cave too long and you step outside for a moment, you're a bit like, okay, it's not so big and scary and over here out there rather. And then again going back to that point that we were seeing was. It doesn't mean you have to show up and all of a sudden be this massive oversharer. It's also about, yeah, leaning into the stories of others, the experiences of others. And yeah, I don't know whether that's kind of going into the question or not. We think we're going to unpack this together. So I'm also curious what comes up for you when you, when you hear me say that.
[00:31:50] Speaker A: Just more curiosity. My next question for you is going to be what makes you feel like you belong?
So when you are leaving the, your cave and you are going towards the pack, we'll call it like what, what, what gives you the sense of belonging when you're in a group?
[00:32:05] Speaker B: I think what's really helping me in, in feeling that wider connection is the practices that I've now started to integrate into kind of my daily life. So the, the, the my morning practice that I have most mornings, I would like to say every morning, but it doesn't always work.
But in, in bringing in some, for example, that if we bring in that, that concept of, into being, that concept to everything.
So with other people, with other beings, with other systems and recognizing that we are, we, we aren't just one person. If we just even take our one, one being. We are a complex makeup of multiple beings in our own, you know, not in our own body. So I think starting to, to bring that in finding connection with what's outside my window doesn't always have to be people. So if you're not feeling in a very people place at that time people mode and certainly I have my moments where I'm not, I can form relay, I'm pointing out here, kind of out of the window, there's a beautiful tree outside there. And I do feel a deep resonant connection with that, with that tree. And that allows me to feel, to start to create a bond and a resonance with something Other than myself. So, yeah, it doesn't always have to be with. With. With your neighbor or with the person in the group. It can just be something else and then start to see what the beauty, let's say, of that tree. See the seasons of that tree, see the agings of that tree. And that alone brings you into something other than just me and my. My kind of now issues, concepts, problems. So I think that for me is a. Is a really important one.
[00:33:57] Speaker A: Yeah, that's beautiful. I like that. I want the audience to think about that question. It's an important question. I think, what makes you feel like you belong? And I know I. I have a major wound of belonging. I grew up with this huge wound. I've been a lone wolf for most of my life. Fairly introverted because of it.
I think I've become so good at making people feel like they belong. So I offer the world the medicine of my wound, which is making people feel seen and connected to and that they belong. And I think for me, you.
I really feel like I belong when people take an interest. So curiosity can make me feel like I belong. Right. Ask me questions, you know, learn about me. Like, make eye contact with me, acknowledge my existence, these sorts of things. I think, I think about gay context that I've been. And it's like the hot guys usually get that. They get the questions asked, they get the attention. And the guys that aren't traditionally attractive, they get ignored. Their existence gets, you know, ignored. And I think so I think as gay men, we can get better at being curious about each other in more ways than. Than just sex and. And body. I think, you know, really getting curious about each other's hearts. These sorts of things. I think it, you know, and that's something I really prioritize in my group context is. Is curiosity. I'm constantly bringing that word in because I think just asking a simple question to somebody can. Can be the difference between them feeling like they belong or not.
[00:35:22] Speaker B: Yeah. And then bringing also that curiosity now and then back to yourself. So you, when you started this question, what do we do with someone who is becoming a bit deconnected with a group? And maybe the judgment's coming in and maybe that's that, but just acknowledging that and being cute. Let's. Allowing the curiosity to come with that rather than the judgment of self. We're very quick to then judge self. So judgment's coming up. Or I can see. I really don't like that guy sitting across from me. Whatever. So, okay. But let's just be curious and gentle around that. And sometimes also it's really important give ourselves a break now and then.
You know, we can be very critical and it's important to have to be reflective.
But let's also just.
Yeah, let's just give it kind of be, be gentle through this process to, to each other and to self.
[00:36:20] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I like that. I like that. And even and gentle for me would be getting curious about myself. Okay, where is this coming from? Part of me that's scared of not belonging asking myself the question, where is this coming from within me? When, when have I felt this before in the past? What, what's the fear that's being activated right now? And, and just taking a moment and getting curious about ourselves can be.
[00:36:42] Speaker B: And asking for help. Right. Because you might ask yourself that question. That's a really big question.
Yeah. So yeah, what's the way. And that could be really to a bigger question to unpick on your own. But you've started the unpicking just by maybe by bringing in that curiosity and you brought in an amazing piece of self awareness in there. So it's a bit like, okay, maybe I do need someone to help me. Have I identified this behavior or whatever. Can I, can I have someone just help me sit with that for a bit?
And even just the witnessing of that alone through someone else's eyes might be the enough and the first step or it's going to someone like me or you or another therapist and starting to gently unpick what that is.
[00:37:28] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I like that. I like that. And I'm reflecting on nests that I've been in as a participant and you know, let's say there's 20 guys in the room. I'll maybe end up staying in touch and connecting with like three. Three out of 20. Right. And there might be three of the guys that rub me the wrong way. So there's going to be. And I think in these contexts where we might have belonging injuries, it can be really easy to look at those three that you're not vibing with and be like, I don't belong here. These guys don't like me. When really there's a whole other room of people. So I think as gay men we can maybe soften our, our hyper vigilance and start to look through the lens of okay, who can I. Who, who am I feeling connected to? Who does make me feel like I belong? And start to draw your awareness and attention.
Them can be a really powerful shift in feeling. Feeling like you belong.
[00:38:15] Speaker B: And that's. That's the real world, isn't it? You know, when we're in a room of strangers, in a group of strangers, it would be unusual. Sorry to think you're going to walk away from that. Being best mates with. Yeah, with all of them. So it's okay that you've picked the handful. You've naturally resonated with a handful, you know, a nice.
But we'll probably never see them again.
And a couple you don't, you don't vibe with.
That's life. But we're being invited to try and bring in those values if we can of non judgment and going back, we used to a number of times just open heartedness and curiosity and just letting sometimes just letting some things go right.
And not as you said, not focusing on what there isn't, but what there is. And that's in a kind of standard spiritual practice in a sense of what are we grateful for? Where has the joy been in my life? Even if you've had the shittiest of days, hopefully you can find a moment of joy within it. And it's that, it's that access of, of joy. It's that access of, of gratitude that becomes a practice. And how can we bring that into, into all of the spaces that we're in.
[00:39:32] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:39:33] Speaker B: Excuse the, excuse the bad language by the way.
[00:39:36] Speaker A: Yeah. What's the saying where, where attention goes, energy flows.
So if you're looking, if your attention is going towards who doesn't like you. Well and guess what? Your energy is going to be in the vibration of I'm not liked. So we got to learn to bring our attention to places that are going to cultivate whatever we're wanting to cultivate. Belonging, joy, love.
[00:39:55] Speaker B: It's a lovely exercise sometimes just to, just to kind of oscillate between those.
So if you are in a space or in. There's some other, there's some other polarity happening between.
Yeah. Positive and negative or. Yeah, I, I like that guy and I really don't like that guy just to do that exercise kind of go how does my body feel when I, when I connect through that feeling of.
[00:40:18] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:40:19] Speaker B: Of like. And then what do I feel like when I connect through that. That feeling of, of judgment or hate. And you can, yeah. You can really feel it as you say. And you can walk with that resonance.
[00:40:31] Speaker A: Yeah. When I do that I feel young when I'm. When I'm towards the hate energy or the dislike energy and I feel mature and old when I connect in with love. It's the young parts in Me that are perceiving some story through this person that I'm not liked. And it's usually a young inner child part that is. That's coming from. So interesting. It's an interesting exercise.
Okay, before we wrap, what was my question? I had one other question. Oh. About finding nests. So let's say the listeners, like, oh, my God, I need this in my life.
Where can they find this? You know, in. In your offerings. And maybe we can even talk about, like, if people want to create this themselves. Like, you know, they're in a city and they're like, okay, I want to. I want to build my own nest.
[00:41:12] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:41:13] Speaker A: Maybe just point them in the right directions here.
[00:41:15] Speaker B: Yeah, well, yeah, you're welcome in many of the nests that I make. And I think all of my contact details will be in the show notes. So if anything I've said here resonates, please come my way.
See? Yeah, I. It's a. Also, I think we've got us. We've got to move into this felt sense of where do I.
What. What would I. What would I like? What would. Where would I feel? What would my nest look like? And then start that. Look through. Through that. And sometimes, you know, we have to believe that, you know, even if they. If they don't exist, then there is an invitation to start them. It's a bit like, if I want this, there must be other men who also. Also want this. So it can be really overwhelming, certainly, if we're trying to start these things ever start something. But the advice is often just to start small.
You know, a story only takes two.
[00:42:09] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly.
We're in a nest right now.
[00:42:12] Speaker B: We're in a net. We're in a nest. Yeah, we're in a nest right now. So we often. And I've certainly fallen into this trap in the past, and we come up with an idea or we want something to happen, we can automatically. The expectation is way bigger than it actually needs to be. So if I don't have a. A nest with 20 people in it from week one, where it's a failure, it's not. So start to feel into what it is that I would like to do that's maybe different than the spaces I've. I've found myself before.
Start to talk to other people, other. Other men that you. That you know, I would just bring the idea up. I would really like this.
And a conversation around a table can quickly start to. To weave into a nest, bring in strangers. So you only. Yeah, we're two people here. If we both Invited someone, I bring someone, you bring someone, you don't know each other. All of a sudden the nest is growing, the community is growing.
[00:43:09] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:43:10] Speaker B: So. And again, be gentle with it, be slow with it. It's not necessarily going to happen overnight.
[00:43:17] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I love that. That's great advice. It's great advice. And part of it too is learning. Doing some training around how to hold space for nests, I think too can be really powerful. Like learning just, you know, for me it was authentic relating. Authentic relating is a nest building modality. And so taking an authentic relating training can be very powerful in learning how to listen effectively, learning how to hold space, learning how to express yourself effectively. Because I do think nests need leaders in order to maintain their safety and their brevity. I think it's, it's really important.
[00:43:50] Speaker B: Yeah. And, and when you, and again, if you, if you start to find spaces that feel like they might be the right place. Yeah. Make sure, connect with the person who is, is leading them to, to see whether you, if you, whether you resonate with them. You know, if you don't resonate with the leader straight immediately, then maybe it's not the right place for you to go straight away. Because a lot of this work is really about resonance and trust. And we're going into that felt sense rather than our thought sense. So trust, you know, let's, let's kind of. Can we invite trust into this?
[00:44:28] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. The T word, the big T word.
Okay. And then for you, I want to just offer you a moment to share with the audience your offering or offerings. What, what's going on in your world that you can offer the audience.
[00:44:42] Speaker B: Yeah, well, three times a year we have this beautiful sacred men's retreat that I mentioned earlier on in the year. These are Netherlands based. They're. They're psychedelic retreats, let's say. But also way more than that. Like we, we do much of what we were talking about in this. We spend time in nature, we do authentic relating. We. There are movement workshops, there are different ceremonies in addition to any form of psychedelic ceremony, let's say. But three times a year we do those. We host those in the Netherlands. Also based here are our storytelling programs and workshops. And there will be an online offering for that at some point soon. I think you do kind of something similar to that yourself, don't you? And then there is just the online space itself where we work one on one. And that's very much for me about kind of bringing the circle into the square, you know, so we spend a lot of Our life kind of looking and working through squares.
But this is about how do we bring. Bringing the circle, bringing the nest into this online space just to create that space where you can come land with me. So that could be coaching. I use a lot of the word around the sacred sit, where we just come together and sit in presence with each other, to work through some of these concepts. So they, I would say, are probably the three main at this stage. So we've got, you know, we've got some physical. Physical spaces here in. In Amsterdam and the Netherlands, and then some beautiful online community gatherings and details of those you'll be able to find on my pages.
[00:46:17] Speaker A: Yeah. And then.
[00:46:18] Speaker B: And then there just. Is the greater community. You know, I. I find just being in a community, even though we can be quite negative about things like social media communities, but again, if we use those with consciousness, they. There. There is. There is. We talk a lot about the nest and these activities in those spaces. Places as well.
[00:46:36] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love it. And GMB, we're just one giant nest. We've got 10,000 guys in our community, and we're a huge nest online, and we're branching out and creating all online nests. But. So, yeah, lots of opportunity to nest, I think.
[00:46:52] Speaker B: Yes. Let's nest.
[00:46:53] Speaker A: What this. This episode is. Is about. We're inviting you into the concept of nesting. So, yeah, I want to thank you for coming on and just sharing all this beautiful wisdom and your beautiful energy with the audience. Hopefully they feel from you that I. What I felt from you today. I can feel your heart and the devotion to. To the work that you're doing. So, yeah, it's beautiful.
[00:47:16] Speaker B: Thank you. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. It's been a pleasure to be here. It's been lovely for us to have this time to talk with each other. And I hope. Yeah, this resonates and just ripples, Ripples out. It will touch the people it's meant to touch. Yeah. You're invited to connect with it in.
In whichever way it is, but certainly, as I sit here, my heart feels very full.
Yeah.
[00:47:42] Speaker A: Yeah. Thank you. Me too.
Appreciate you. And I appreciate the audience for tuning into another episode. If you're watching on YouTube, let us know. Let us know how this episode landed for you. Does the concept of nesting feel like something you're drawn to? And if so, let us know what you would need in a nest in order for it to feel good for you.
All right, Much love, everybody.
