Episode Transcript
[00:00:04] Speaker A: All right. Welcome to Gaiman going deeper, a podcast series by the gay men's Brotherhood where we talk about personal development, mental health and sexuality. I am your host, Matt Lansital. I am a counselor and facilitator specializing in healing and empowerment. My areas of expertise are teaching people how to heal toxic shame and attachment trauma and embody their authentic self so they can enjoy more meaningful connections in their lives. I specialize in working with highly sensitive people, empaths and gay men to develop a stronger sense of self worth. Today's topic is mentoring the next generation of gay men, and we are joined by Joe Maxton. Welcome.
[00:00:41] Speaker B: Yeah, thanks so much, Matt. I appreciate it.
[00:00:44] Speaker A: Yeah. Good to have you here and your expertise in leadership. I think this is going to be a really enriching conversation about how we can mentor the next generation and what it was like for us to be mentored. And I, you know, any sort of spots where we feel like they could have been improved and these sorts of things. So, yeah, I think it's going to be a good conversation. Excited to have you here. Yeah. So I want to just read a little bit about you. So you are a seasoned leadership and culture consultant, speaker, coach, and bestselling author with over two decades of rich experience in the banking and technology sectors. You have cemented your reputation as an expert in leadership development and employee experience.
You are deeply committed to empowering leaders and organizations with the practical skills needed to profoundly impact people's lives.
Jo is also a best selling author with his memoir, Creosult A Carnival Kids Quest for Home, Family and Belonging, which is a reflection of your personal journey of self discovery and coming out alongside your youngest child, Mars. You also co authored Tummy Questions with my dad, which is a heartfelt exploration of the father child relationship. So that's pretty cool. Yeah, yeah, you got a pretty extensive writing experience and so, yeah, I'm excited to learn a little bit more about those as well as we go through our episode here.
So a couple of things that we're going to be unpacking in today's episode just to give the listener viewer a bit of a roadmap of what we're going to be trying to unpack. It might be a lot, but we're going to give it a best shot in an hour. So exploring the community that was created for us by the previous generation and looking at any pros and, and cons about that, exploring what our experience has been with leadership and or mentorship in the gay community, pros and cons of that as well. What type of mentorship did we have or wish we had when we were coming out?
And like I said to you before we hit record, you and I have very different experiences of our coming out journeys, and maybe we can even share a little kind of snippet of that so the listener viewer knows where we're coming from.
And then how can we have platonic intimacy when connection calls for it in our community?
We're all gay men and we want sexual connection, but there's also a lot of us really wanting platonic connection. So how can we have platonic connection for those of us that maybe just automatically default to sexual attraction as a way of connecting with one another? So I'm excited to unpack that with you a bit more.
And then what are the skills that are required to thrive in the gay community or have healthy relationships with other gay men? I think that kind of bleeds into the previous question, but we'll unpack that a bit. Uh, and then the last question. How can we best mentor the next generation to have a positive gay experience?
This was a big reason why I wanted to have this conversation is because I do see a lack of mentorship in our community. Um, I think that's changing. It's starting to change. I'm seeing a lot more people doing coaching and a lot more, uh, GBTQ therapists and counselors and these sorts of things that have, you know, are doing their work and stepping forward and leading people. So it's definitely shifting. I really want to put voice to that, but this is something that really significantly was lacking for me in my life. And I really wish that I had, you know, gay people that I could look up to and, you know, like, healthy gay role models. I just think that it's wasn't a good experience for me in my coming out. So, yeah, off the top, I'm curious, what. What was it like for you? Like, what.
What's your. What's your story, actually? Let's start there.
[00:04:18] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:04:19] Speaker A: As far as, like, coming out and give us the Cliffs notes version.
[00:04:23] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. It's a long. It's a long story. You can just read the book. Just read the book.
[00:04:26] Speaker A: Yeah. There you go. Go buy his book and read it. Yeah.
[00:04:29] Speaker B: So I actually came out in 2020, October of 2020.
So, you know, as pandemic was crushing all of our souls and hearts.
[00:04:38] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:04:39] Speaker B: I was in my fourth year of actual trauma therapy. I had gone to a therapist to deal with an issue that I had going on at work. And surprise, surprise, it ended up being something bigger and so ultimately, I made the decision that I needed to love this part of myself that I had kind of, like, pushed to this desolate place.
I grew up in a very conservative christian space.
My mom left me when I was 13, really clung to anything that created this space of safety and acceptance. And for me, that was my church. There were some really great people in my church when I was 13, all the way through just recently, and because of that, there was a sense of security. And so I decided not to, um, even explore what it meant to be gay because I needed sustainable, safe space for myself. Um, so it really took until just a little over three years ago to find a space to love myself and come out.
[00:05:56] Speaker A: Yeah, that's amazing. I'm really happy for you. Um, and is it an amazing. When we go to therapy, we start the journey. It's like it usually ends up not being the thing we went for. It's like there's something, there's always that underlying piece to it. So. And then it seems like you've done a lot of really beautiful work in the last four years, and you're now coaching, and you're kind of mentoring and doing leadership work. So it really does lend itself, you know, the therapeutic, the healing journey. It lends itself to. A lot of people end up stepping into roles of being in leadership and mentorship. So.
And you said in passing until recently, are you not long no longer connected to your church? Is that.
[00:06:37] Speaker B: No. Unfortunately, my church asked me to leave as I started unpacking. Being gay, talking to a small group of men within my church community and my pastor, it just, it wasn't a space of where they could support my decision, so they asked me to leave.
[00:06:58] Speaker A: Jeez. So the very thing that you were leaning on for your own mentorship, and it kind of crumbled out from underneath you.
What have you been doing as far as navigating the gay world and this sort of stuff? How's that been for you?
[00:07:17] Speaker B: Excuse me? Sometimes it's good, and sometimes I'm just like floundering trying to figure out what community as a whole looks like for me.
When I've had this embedded community of everybody believes the same.
We're all like middle class white people.
When I started unpacking, being gay and starting to accept that, I realized how narrow my perspective on life was.
So when I came out, I wanted to be really intentional of finding people who were like me, but also had a different view of life.
So anything from trying to find a community through Instagram and I've been to a couple of community groups, like LGBTQ hiking groups, and then just some organic connections with people saying, hey, you seem pretty cool. Would you.
You want to get some coffee?
And then just kind of. I feel like the main path of dating and trying to find somebody who aligns with me. So there are places I did it really well, and then also I was trying to figure out what my identity was like as I stepped out of going to. Going to church on a regular basis and being a conservative evangelical to somebody who's trying to figure out my own space of what life looks like going forward.
[00:09:06] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thanks for sharing that. So, yeah, what I heard is that there's, you know, there's certain aspects of things that have been pretty straightforward, and then there's been certain aspects of things that have been, like, very challenging to navigate, and there's been some floundering and also been some realizations that you've had along the way around, like, maybe opening up your worldview and these sorts of things.
When you talk about floundering, what would you say has been the greatest challenge for you?
[00:09:42] Speaker B: Honestly, I feel like it's authentic relationships.
I feel like I'm a pretty.
Pretty easy to get along with. It's pretty easy to, like, connect with me.
You know, I struggle with some anxiety when I go into new spaces. It doesn't matter where it is.
[00:10:03] Speaker A: Yeah, me too.
[00:10:04] Speaker B: So I've had to, like, oh, I'm in good company then.
[00:10:07] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:10:08] Speaker B: I've had to, like, force myself, like, part of. Part of my role being in leadership. Like, I have to walk into a room and be like, hi, my name is Joe Maxton. How are you? Tell me about yourself. And I can turn that on, but in spaces of where I'm trying to create, like, connection with my identity. Man alive. Just been, like, super overwhelming. And so I. It was easy for me to shut down, so, you know, floundering of just being able to walk into spaces of where I feel like people are viewing already making assumptions about me. So that insecurity that I had been holding, I've still carried that into the gay space. So trying to get over, just be yourself, even though I don't sometimes even know what that really means, but trying to be confident in who I am and that I don't have to be like everybody else.
[00:11:07] Speaker A: Yeah.
Yeah. Great answer. I appreciate your honesty and your vulnerability.
Yeah. I think one of our survival mechanisms as gay men is to be masters of disguise. We have to hide who we are, and I think we become very good at being what people need us to be or to hide these parts of ourselves. So I think as we get older and we come out, our coming out process is really about untangling who we actually are and who we had to be in order to feel safe in the world. And it's just this messy jumble of wires, and we're kind of like, that's what therapy is usually for. A gay man is untangling the wireball and kind of figuring out, okay, who am I? And who did I have to be in order to stay safe in the world?
And, you know, my struggle was very similar, actually, extremely similar to what you're sharing. I came out when I was 18, and I was floundering big time. I was in the middle of a drug addiction, and I just. A lot of struggle. And for me, I don't feel like I had really, mentorship. I didn't feel like I had anybody to look up to. And I still actually, to be honest, I've never actually felt that I've ever had gay mentorship. I've never had a gay person that I can look up to and be like, I want to be like that.
Until recently, actually, I have connected with somebody that I'm like, okay, this is somebody that I feel like I can look up to and that there's somebody that I would strive to be like or to emulate, which is really a cool thing, but I want to maybe just jump into the first question a little bit. So exploring the community that was created for us by the previous generation.
Have you watched or watching the show fellow travelers?
[00:12:55] Speaker B: Yes. Yes, I did watch it.
[00:12:57] Speaker A: So I'm only on show or episode. I think five or six. I think I just finished five last night. Um, and this is a perfect show to watch, to have this conversation, because it gave. It gives me more perspective, um, and. And compassion for the previous generations. And I think what that generation, the generations below us and then the generations below them, they really embodied, like, survival mode.
[00:13:23] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:13:24] Speaker A: It was fight or flight. Like, that's the energy that this. That our. The previous generations had to be in. And they. They fought. So I think, for me, like, if I'm looking at that generation, they taught us how to fight. They taught us how to. To practice and show up with courage, these sorts of things. And then I almost feel like it's like, you know, our generation now, it's like, coming and stepping forward and, like, learning how, because, you know, for the most part, in, at least in this part of the world where we are, and I know still in different places, in our side of the world, there still is that fight mentality. We have to fight for our freedoms and stuff, but it's dramatically improved from, let's say, 50 years ago. Like, dramatically. Like, we have spaces where we can go and find refuge and be safe and be out and be proud.
So where I would say that that's one of the things that I just want to really highlight, that I really value about the previous generations and the fight that they brought forward for us.
And then in another breath, I want to also say that there was very little emphasis, probably because there wasn't an opportunity.
Nervous systems were highly activated back then. There was no opportunity for us to learn how to relate to one another in. In ways other than, you know, sex or, you know, discrete, anonymous sort of interactions, which were probably highly activated. And the fellow travelers really highlighted this for me. I was like, okay. Like, you know, all these people are so hyper vigilant and, you know, masking and hiding who they are. And so, anyways, I wanted to say that. And then where I feel like the mark was missed, you know, albeit because of the circumstances, was we didn't learn how to relate to one another as gay men with a regulated nervous system. So I'm seeing this a lot now, like, with the clients I work with and the communities that I work in. It's, you know, gay men trying to come together with highly activated nervous systems. It's been passed down intergenerationally. So there's a lot of conflict, there's a lot of fear, anxiety, social anxieties, these sorts of things that we all embody.
So, anyways, I think it's our generation that's here to now be like, okay, we're bringing more emotional literacy. We're bringing more somatic awareness of how to work with the nervous system. So we can therefore create and mentor for the next generation. And that's pretty much my inspiration of wanting to talk to you about this, is, like, I want to set a tone and a culture, like a new gay community, that we can start having these conversations about anxiety and mental health problems and addiction and these things. So we can therefore create healthy communities for the next generations to come. Right. So our community doesn't need to keep suffering. So it breaks my heart to see so much suffering in our community.
[00:16:07] Speaker B: Yeah.
When you say that, you bring my first fellow travelers the relationship between the lesbian couple early on.
[00:16:18] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:16:20] Speaker B: I was like, oh, man. Because they were women at that time in society, it was okay, but it would never have been okay for two men at that age.
Because there's something wrong with you, which is very much kind of the message that I had told to me when I was 16 years old, and I was really struggling through, in my space, same sex attraction.
But as we kind of move forward to me trying to find healthy spaces, I still have that dialogue of where my emotions are not. I'm trying to regulate my emotions. And I had joined the gay chamber of commerce here. It's called the Chamber of Equality.
And I sat in the car for, like, ten minutes just trying to calm myself because I was so worried about walking into a space of where one, I didn't know anybody, really, and I wasn't sure it was at a bar. So on top of that, I'm like, am I going to be sexualized by going in here? And I'm so thankful. I mean, the men and women that were part of that evening were so fantastic. And I started to make friends, and it helped me see, oh, okay, there are other leaders in the gay community, and it. I mean, it brought my, you know, my fight flight freeze down very quickly, and I could actually engage and just get to know some people.
But I think the.
The experience that I had early on in my teens was that generation, it was just hyper sexualized because there was no space to be able to have a conversation of, like, hey, how do we. How do we connect? Like, how do we be friends?
And then being a person, a straight person or somebody who wasn't out all through my adult life, there's no space to talk to somebody who's gay.
[00:18:37] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. And then being, you know, having those types of connections being seen in who we actually are, it's very vulnerable, you know, being authentic. And again, I think because there was such a heavy reliance on, you know, this is the area where we have the strongest need to be met, which is to have sex. Right. That's where our. That, you know, being gay, it's. It's a sexual orientation, right. So the thing is, is we desire to have sex and connect with other men. And so that's the first need usually. So that's the need that most of us get met or attempt to get met. And then these other needs tend to go at the wayside. Right? Like vulnerability connection, emotional connection, spiritual connection, even, like, how amazing would it have been to be in a church setting or a spiritual setting, religious setting, and having other gay people to be able to share your faith with? Right. Like, that would have just been a complete game changer for a lot of people, because then you can maintain your faith, or at least the aspects of your faith that feel good for you and also have authentic connection with people.
[00:19:45] Speaker B: Yeah. And when I first started dating, it felt like almost every person that I went on a date with had their own religious story of just not being accepted.
[00:19:59] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:20:00] Speaker B: And so you already have this fracture in your life because you're not accepted, and there's no space to talk about it. And then on top of that, you're told that there's something wrong with you.
And so if there would have been space to minimally talk about it, which I have teenagers, and I think they're starting to do a good job talking about their identity, their gender, and they have some language, which kind of gives me hope for the LGBTQ community that there's more openness about this is who I am, and there's some acceptance, and I'm very much of a mindset of just because I'm almost 50 doesn't mean I can't learn something. So what can we learn from the younger generation that we can actually pull into our experience so we can not only help ourselves heal and start to regulate and create healthy community, but then also, how do we support the next generation? Because there's going to be a fight for them in as much as there was a fight for us.
[00:21:16] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. I love that. And, you know, it's so interesting because the younger generation doesn't carry the same type of shame that we carry. I feel like I'm a sandwich between those two generations. I feel like I kind of have a bit of. A bit of this side and a bit of this side because I was raised by the generation that had the deep fear and the deep homophobia. And then the younger generations, it's not so much like that anymore. I'm seeing a lot more gender fluidity and less. Well, even sexual fluidity as well. And it's really fascinating. It's very fascinating how things are changing. So I love how you said that we can learn from the younger generation, too. It's not just about us mentoring the younger generation. It's about how can we actually look at that generation and the influence that they've been that's impacted them and say, how can we be more like that, be more open and compassionate and understanding of one another? So, yeah, it's interesting.
[00:22:12] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. My. So, my youngest is. Is a trans. Trans boy.
[00:22:19] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:22:20] Speaker B: So he has been gracious with so much education in the LGBTQ space.
When I wasn't out, he was.
And so when we started talking, he was like, what do you want to know? And I would say, hey, can I ask questions? And so I think that's. That's what the beauty is of what's happening in the. In the culture, because I want to give voice one for my son. But I also want to understand, being a gay Mande, how I can continue to encourage and support the LGBTQ community in a way that they need it.
[00:22:58] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. How old is your son? 1616. Okay. And you have a daughter as well, so that is.
[00:23:08] Speaker B: That's actually my birth daughter.
[00:23:11] Speaker A: Okay. Transition. So do you have. You have two sons now?
[00:23:14] Speaker B: I have two. I have two kids. I have a. Uh. See, I. I'm going to mess up language here, so my apologies. I have a biologically born son.
[00:23:24] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:23:24] Speaker B: Who is 18, and we have a trans son who is 16.
[00:23:29] Speaker A: Okay. Yeah. Okay, so you have an 18 year old boy and a 16 year old boy. Yes. Yes. Gotcha. Okay.
Okay. Um, anything you want to add to the first part? Exploring the community that was created for us by previous generation. Again, like, you bring a very unique perspective in the sense that you came out a lot later. You weren't connected to the community. Really? Is that true?
[00:23:52] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. I wasn't.
[00:23:54] Speaker A: Four years.
[00:23:55] Speaker B: Yeah. I wasn't willing to be in that space because I was hiding so much. There was so much guilt that I didn't want to go into in a community. We weren't around gay people. There was. I think there were two gay people in church kind of all growing up. But then as I became an adult, I had this. I knew I had this attraction. I got married again. I kind of pushed that to the side, out to kind of this desolate place where hopefully being gay would die so I could live the christian good male leader role.
And so there just was no space for it if some of that came up, because I could, you know, identify all the good looking guys in a moment in a room, I was just always suppressing that. So giving any time or energy to somebody who was in the gay community, I was never rude or unkind to somebody in the gay community, but I. I had to have that boundary because I was trying to live a straight and narrow life.
[00:25:13] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Well, geez, I just want to say I'm super proud of you for taking that leap because I've done it super hard. So you're now four years out and living authentically. So I think it's the biggest act of courage we can do as human beings is to live the truth of who we are, especially in a world that is shaming of maybe these qualities of people that aren't mainstream. Right.
It really is the greatest act of courage. Yeah.
[00:25:44] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:25:45] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. It's huge. It's really huge.
Okay, let's move into the next one, then. So what has been your experience with leadership in the gay community?
[00:25:59] Speaker B: I love that you had said pros and cons, because I think this is a great space, first of all, trying to figure out what does leadership look like in the gay community?
Because of my expertise in leadership development, I'm looking just for leadership. And where do I see that in community? And in most instances, it actually hasn't been. It hasn't been that great because of my time in therapy, recognizing my own insecurities, and then most of the time, being able to pause and recognize that, okay, other people are feeling this way. So I have been part of a gay outdoors group, and it's probably been one of the best experiences I've had in leadership in the gay community, because the leader, Marcus, was really clear when he kind of did a call to participate, just saying, we don't want to be the group of people that goes out partying or the goes out drinking that lives this lifestyle. If that's what you want to do, that's absolutely okay. We're trying to create an environment of where we can be healthy and like minded together, and we want to do that by doing outdoor things. And he's just been so consistent in that message. So the people that show up are like, oh, I want to go hike. Oh, I want to go and volunteer. So in as much as I think about building community, doesn't matter who the person or the group is. Like, that's what I want in community. So I feel like this specific group has done a really good job of saying who they are and sticking with it, recognizing that it's going to attract certain people who are hopefully looking for something different in their life.
So I think that's probably one. And then another instance of where I participated with the volunteer group, a different volunteer group, and it didn't go well. Like, the. The leader, as. As you walked in, you could tell that it was a group of people who already know one another here in my city, and so they're doing it together, and you do not feel like you're part of it.
I would hope somebody who struggles with new environments, I would hope somebody would be like, hi, my name's Joe. Uh, I don't know that. That I've met you before. And just being really intentional, helping people become part of the community, it felt very much like you go over there, and because we're in discussion, which is really unfortunate because you're volunteering, you want to be a collective group.
But unfortunately, that's just not what I saw.
[00:28:57] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that's unfortunate. But I'm glad you're having some positive experience, like outdoor hiking and these sorts of things. And when I think about leadership, I think you said it off the top. Like, what does leadership mean? How do you define leadership? And I think there's so many different ways to look at that.
You know, for me, it's like creating a vision. Like, leaders tend to create vision. They create organization and then execution of whatever. So, you know, when you look at gay men, like, what are the needs? Well, sex is one of them. So there's people that are in the community that are leading in sexuality, and some of it is conscious, some of it maybe not as conscious.
And then you have people in maybe emotional literacy, like, the work I do, like, teaching gay men how to be more emotionally literate and develop self worth. And then you have people that are organizing events, maybe gatherings, parties, bringing people together. So I think leadership is such a.
It's very objective, right? Like, we can look at it from many different. From many different angles. And I want to give, like, shout out to the. To the gay community, because there are a lot of people that are taking initiative and putting themselves out there to be leaders, not just in the space that I'm in, but in, like I said, in many different areas.
[00:30:14] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:30:15] Speaker A: And I find, like, gay and queer men are very, very creative, very achieving. Like, they want to. They want to, you know, achieve very resilient wise, these sorts of things. And what I'm noticing is, as we do our work, our healing work, our inner work, um, that grows exponentially. And the reason why, from my perspective, is that we endure a lot of suffering, right? And when we have a lot of suffering and it creates a depth, but that depth can only be accessed when we heal, right? Otherwise, that depth is a deep, dark hole and we fall into it. But when we create the depth within us and we start to heal, it's like we fill in that hole, and then we can stand on top of this, like, you know, this depth and be in our power around it. So I'm starting to notice this. This shift is happening in the. In the gay community around people becoming more empowered and. And stepping into leadership roles. And it's. It makes me extremely happy to see this. And, uh, yeah, I'm.
[00:31:20] Speaker B: Yeah, you know, I'm seeing it a lot in. In social media. There's a couple of people that I follow where I. Well, that. That's how I met Marcus. And for the outdoor group, Keegan Hurst is somebody that I saw him at first, and I was like, what am I going to get here? But as I've continued to follow him, realizing, oh, my gosh, this guy is using his influence to really make a difference in the headspace for the gay community and differently than what you do. But I think he's giving voice to, for me, giving voice to a lot of what I felt about the shame about asking questions, understanding, like how I fit into the gay community.
And you did a beautiful job of talking about the different segments. It could be just events, it could be coaching and education.
It could be sexual awareness.
All of those things are important because we need that. It's part of who we are, helps us feel connected.
So I think he's somebody that I follow.
And then when I spend time with my gay friends here in Phoenix, there's a couple of people that I can just ask, like, hey, hey, how's life? And kind of breaks down the barrier when I think about leadership.
Somebody's got to go first and have vulnerability and authenticity in whatever space it is.
So trying to find people that are willing to be authentic and vulnerable with their story ends with their community, I think that drives conversation.
[00:33:21] Speaker A: Me, too. And I think that's what makes it conscious. When I was differentiating between conscious sexuality and probably more unconscious sexuality, from my perspective, conscious would have more vulnerability, authenticity. It's coming from a place of understanding and awareness of ourselves and the needs that we have, as opposed to it maybe being in the shadow aspect. It's more integrated. Right? The shadow has been integrated. We're working with it.
So, yeah, it's really cool. And I think we can't be everything to everyone, and I know that for myself. So I love seeing other people stepping into the arena and bringing forth their own skill set and their leadership. And I did an episode all about leadership in the gay community.
And that was a part of the conversation is like, it was an invitation, like, to. For people like you. You have your unique signature that you bring to the gay community. Step into the arena and bring that, whatever that is for you. Be a leadership, even if it's of ten people, you know, like, we all have the capacity to be able to step in and share our experience with people. And that's a big part of it, is like, having the courage to share your story and let other people hear your story, and then they just be like, wow. Like, that's so inspiring. So I do think that's a quality of a leader as well as somebody that inspires us to want to be better and do better and these sorts of things.
[00:34:38] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's about finding your voice, you know, as. As. As I've healed, uh, and started to discover, well, where. Where's. Where's my fit in community as a whole? Like, as a human, where. What I. I'm recognizing. Oh, I actually want to have a voice in this space. So working with some nonprofits in the LGBTQ space here in Phoenix, one in ten supports youth, queer, queer, and trans youth. And because of what they're doing, I'm like, oh, my gosh. You're, like, giving access to kids that so need it in a very conservative. Not, thankfully, not excessively conservative, but a pretty conservative state where there may be no other space for them to be their unique self.
So in leadership, I think finding your voice and being able to speak to that specific area like you're talking about so people can see, oh, I can find my voice. And actually, I like what he's doing. I'd like to actually be part of that.
Seeing that more frequently allows us to be able to say, oh, that's uniquely Matt, and that's uniquely Joe. I'm really starting to understand his voice.
[00:36:01] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, I like that. I like that.
Okay, now, my question for you is, what type of mentorship do you wish you had when you were coming out?
[00:36:13] Speaker B: Yeah, well, it would have been nice to have other gay people in church.
[00:36:20] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:36:20] Speaker B: I think the first before we. Before we actually say that, I grew up in a pentecostal church, and for anybody who doesn't know about pentecostal, it is highly rule based.
And so being somebody who had been left by his mom, when I was with my mom, it was very rule based. She had a saying of listen and be good. So I was great at following the rules.
The issue with that was everything was black and white. So I really wish there was space to minimally just talk about sexuality.
And I think that really is a failure on the church's part.
In my experience of, there's so much shame around sexuality as a whole. Doesn't matter what your orientation is, and because of that, you just can't talk about anything. And so now add into being gay, not having anybody. One, you can't talk about sex. Two, there's no way in the world you could talk about being gay. I wish there would have been people that I. That were safe enough to talk to, to not deal with my shame or pray it away.
[00:37:48] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:37:48] Speaker B: But be able to just say, I love you, I care about you. Let's figure this out.
[00:37:54] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Normalizing it, it's almost like people that would be able to be there to kind of pave the way for you to be able to.
Yeah, yeah. That's interesting. I was fortunate enough in the sense of my family system to have that because my uncle on my paternal side is gay, and so he was able to kind of pave that path for me. So that was a really. A really nice thing because I didn't have to educate and everything that was all done for me. So that was like a huge burden that was taken off my shoulders. So there's some mentorship there with my uncle, which was nice, but as far as navigating the gay world, it's, like, non existent. I was very new to it. I was highly anxious, and my nervous system was dysregulated. So I got into using drugs and alcohol and partying and stuff, and I just, like, I fell into the community that was the mainstream community that was easily there. It's just, that's what you see, so that's what you move towards. And I don't think a lot of young or gay people realize that they're subsets and that there are groups now where you can go and do hiking and these sorts of things. So I think we're a lot.
There's more of an advantage now for that. And likely why we'll probably see more functional younger gay men is because we do have those spaces that, you know, we have meetup groups, we have technology now. We're not just going to gay bars. We have apps, like, all these things. And I do think that actually makes socialization more accessible, because for me, I had a negative mentorship experience. So, yes, I was mentorship by older gay men, but it was into promiscuous sex, and it was very predatory. So I came in at, like, 18, and you have these 25 to 40 year old men, like, preying on these younger guys, coming into the community and taking them home and having sex with them. And that was a big thing of what I wanted to bring up in this conversation is if you look at that in any other community, that would be very frowned upon. Like, to have, you know, a 40 year old man having sex with an 18 year old boy. Essentially, if that was reversed and it was a 40 year old man and an 18 year old girl, it would be extremely looked down upon. But in our community, somehow that's seen as appropriate, and it's applauded.
And it's applauded. Exactly. So there's something there that I. It just feels, um. It's entrenched in shadow energy for me, and it's something that needs to be, like, kind of healed out of our community. And, um.
And. And not so much the act, like, the. The actual sexual act. It's the taking advantage of somebody who's very fresh and green and new to the community. Because if an 18 year old is consenting to having sex with a 40 year old, because they are actually, that's what they want. I'm all for that. Right. Consent is. Is key here. But I just think at that age, for myself, I was so young and so impressionable and probably drunk and just, you know, and I did a lot of things at that time with my body that I probably wouldn't have done if I would have known better.
So that was a big part for me. So I was mentored into, like, what I felt would be, like, the dysfunctional aspects of the culture, the shadow side of our culture, which was the hypersexuality and probably more like the substance use. Right. Yeah.
[00:41:12] Speaker B: I talk about this with. With my partner, Will. We. We both came out, you know, we've. We both come out in, like, the past, like, five years.
And he was married to a woman as well, has kids. Very similar story as I did.
[00:41:28] Speaker A: Wow, that's crazy.
[00:41:30] Speaker B: And it. The reality was, he was the type of person that I wanted to connect with because he could understand being a dada, he could understand being married to a woman. He could understand being in the church, and he loved doing outdoor stuff.
All of the things that I really enjoyed.
It was just easy.
And I don't want to be like, oh, it was easy. So we just know he lives in another state. I have to drive six and a half hours to see him. And it is absolutely worth it, because what I was discovering when you talk about mentorship. So three years ago, I'm 45.
Four years ago, I'm 44.
And now I'm trying to figure out, what do I do? Like, I'm out and understanding. How do you navigate the dating world? What is a dating world like for a gay person? Where do I meet somebody? And so, jokingly, I talk about my gay adolescence in my mid forties, because all of that pent up desire was still there.
And so, thankfully, it was short lived because I realized, I mean, I've started figuring out sex. I had a couple people that I could ask some gay friends, but the reality was I was like, I just need something more. I had already been used to community, and it's just part of you, just who I am, of being open with my life, telling my story so it could help somebody else.
So there wasn't a lot of depth there. And so I happened to meet my partner online, and I was like, wow, that he is different. And I think that's what we're longing for in community is people that we can relate to. We can also talk about our sexual experience because, you know, that's just, that's part of who we are. It's not our whole self.
So I am thankful for a couple of friends who I could just ask very practical questions around relationships and how it works in gay relationships and man alive, it was like a world of education.
[00:44:04] Speaker A: Yeah, it's very intricate. There's a lot. There's a lot about our community that I'm still learning, too. Right. And you have all the Alphabet letters and all, you know, there's a lot. There's a lot to navigate and when you're early into the. Into the world, so. But, yeah, that's how we. We navigate it and we really ask the questions and then tune in. Does this feel in resonance to me? Right. And I would love to see our community be a little bit more non conforming in the sense of like, okay, I'm going to ask the questions, I'm going to be discerning. Does this feel good for me, or am I doing this because everyone else is doing it? Right. Like, I'm a huge proponent of non conformity and people really making up their own rules for what's going to work for them and not just going along with what everyone else is doing.
[00:44:47] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And it take. That takes time because in my time in therapy, my therapist and I were getting towards the end, and I was frustrated because some things weren't changing as quickly as I thought. I was still carrying a lot of shame even though I was out. And he was so gracious and just said, you know, joe, you cannot change 40 years in four days or four weeks or four years. And in some instances, it's never going to change. You have to learn how to be okay with it. A lot of things have changed, but there are some things that just haven't, and I don't know if they will, but being able to recognize that was extremely helpful for me. So I can be myself and be able to support other people on their path, wherever that may be.
[00:45:43] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I love that. And that's a really good learning lesson. And I work primarily with shame in my practice. And, you know, toxic shame, we can make it untoxic, but shame is a human emotion. We can't remove it. It's like saying, I'm going to heal my sadness and make it go away, like, so I'll never have sadness ever again. It doesn't really work like that. And I find what. What it is is we're actually developing a resilience to it. Will we still feel shame? You bet you we will, because that's part of the human experience. But can we develop a resilience to it so it doesn't completely take us over when we feel it? Absolutely. So it's. Sometimes it's the reframe of what we deem as a success that really helps us kind of liberate ourselves from the confines of, like, ugh, the heaviness of the healing journey. Right. Otherwise, we can look at the healing journey through.
Through the opposite lens, and we feel like we're always going to be in it. You know what I mean? So, yeah, it's interesting. The healing journey is a fascinating journey, that's for sure.
[00:46:40] Speaker B: Yep, it is.
[00:46:41] Speaker A: Yeah.
Okay, let's transition the conversation a little bit into the platonic intimacy.
So how can we have platonic intimacy when the connection calls for it?
Yeah. What are your thoughts on that?
[00:46:57] Speaker B: Yeah, I think this is very much, like, leadership 101 for me now, and I'm still learning it and have screwed it up a couple of times. But I think the reality is about setting expectations and boundaries is really important. Like, knowing yourself and well enough of, like, hey, this.
These are my boundaries and whether they're actually verbalized. But you knowing yourself well enough where you're, like, not in the moment, you've actually spent some time reflecting.
For that season that I was in therapy, I have books and books and books and books and books full of journaling of how I was feeling, and it helped me process through. And then some instance, I would say to a trusted friend, hey, can I say this out loud? And then as I processed it, I realized, oh, actually, that's not how I feel. The reality of being able to set expectations and boundaries for myself, I think those are table stakes, because then people know what's to what you're in for, and then it allows them to be able to say, hey, I want to show up this way. Or ask questions. Like, I think curiosity is really important in this space as well because you might talk about intimacy, and they have a totally different definition of it. So having open conversation, man, I think it's a beautiful thing.
Not in a place of where you might be hot and heavy with another guy and then you're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, let's dial it back and be like, hey, can we talk about like intimacy? What does that look like for you? No, your brain is already in a situation now. You may need to be like, hey, I need to stop and honor that. But I think the bigger piece for me is being able to, to say, well, this is what intimacy looks like for me.
So when I was leading in the evangelical space, I hosted men, small groups, community groups in my home. And one of the things that was always peculiar now and was uncomfortable then was guys willingness to be close physically to one another. And so you couldn't sit on the couch and your leg touch another guy's leg. Like for me, if that happened, I would freak out. Like this guy thinks I'm a queer.
He's going to know, he's going to tell my family, he's going to out at all of this stuff just pouring out of me. And I couldn't be present because I was so ashamed that this guy might think that I, I'm gay because my leg's touching him where he's like, I had no idea. But the reality around intimacy is there for me. It is really important to have physical touch with another man, strictly platonic. Hugging somebody, being close to somebody is important for me. And then it allows me in my, my partner also to be able to talk about, well, what does intimacy look like?
[00:50:28] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah, I like that. I like how you touched on that because we have sexual intimacy, we have physical intimacy and then we have experiential intimacy, we have different forms of intimacy. And I think platonic intimacy obviously is going to be the absence of sexual and in some cases physical intimacy because for some people it's like if you're in a platonic connection, you're not going to cuddle or, or kiss or anything, but maybe you would hug or that sort of thing or put your arm around them.
And I just really want to say off the top that all forms of intimacy are beautiful and we can mentor the younger generation in all forms of these intimacies, right? Maybe it is. A younger person is wanting to navigate sex and you're experienced and you're older and you're wanting to navigate that and it's consensual and that's how you're mentoring in the sense of platonic. I think it's a little different, because I think gay men tend to lead with that. They lead with the number one need or the number one injury that was affected when they were younger, which is the development their sexual self. So we tend to lead with attraction. We tend to lead with always scanning the room and seeing where's the hottest guy in the room? That's the guy I'm going to connect with or whatever.
When we're platonically mentoring somebody, I think we need to put that aside and we need to be able to show up and look at the value, the values of this person, who they are, their emotional self. Right. And start to really take that on, because I can't imagine being in a mentorship or a mentee and then having my mentor start to kind of hit on me and become attracted to me. It would feel very uncomfortable for me because it's like you're opening up and you're connecting, and there's almost like a friendship that's, that's blooming there, so.
And, you know, I wish there was an easy way to say, but I think it's just discernment. It's about having conversation. And if that does happen, an attraction does come up, how can we talk about it? These sorts of things I think are just really important. And I wrote down some things that I think would be a great way to have platonic intimacy, and I'll just read them out. So the first one would be not writing each other off just because we're not attracted to them. Because when I speak of this, it doesn't have to be mentor mentee. It could be friends as well. And I think it is really beautiful to have other gay friends that you're not fucking and that it's absolutely okay to talk about things. And you can even talk about sex you're having with other guys. And it's like, it's like a really nice, friendly connection that doesn't. You don't have to worry about the sex becoming a problem within the relationship.
Take an interest in people you wouldn't necessarily take an interest in.
Boundaries are very, very important in these types of connections if you're having platonic. Right. Because, again, it's like, we have to be able to talk about the fact that there might be attraction, um, that we're not, you know, gonna explore that path. Um, and then you said it best. But curiosity, like, I don't think intimacy is possible without curiosity. Like, it's so important to have that and to take an interest, um, emotionally validate, um, is, is so important. Letting somebody know that what they're feeling and experiencing is. Is normal, and it's okay to. To feel that it's.
[00:53:36] Speaker B: It's.
[00:53:36] Speaker A: It's really nice. And I think that's the. That's the thing we bring as, like, let's say, more mature gay Mendez for a younger generation, is we have the experience. We have the resilience that we've developed these sorts of things, and that's likely, you know, whether it's being asked for or not. I think that's what the younger generation really craves, is knowing that what they're experiencing is okay and that they're not, you know, defective or something's wrong with them, that they're exactly who they are, and it's beautiful. Right. I think that's so important.
Yeah. So that's kind of some of the things that I came up with. Anything that sparks in your mind?
[00:54:11] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. So two things. One would be practice in a safe space.
So if you're setting the boundaries, you're setting expectations, just putting it out there, hey, I'm really struggling with platonic intimacy.
Wow. That's extremely vulnerable, because we live in a space that typically, it's first sexualized to say, hey, I'm trying to do this better. And so here. Here are some things that I'm working on, and could you encourage me? Could you let me know, hey, when I'm doing it well, and then other times where I might actually be messing it up.
[00:54:54] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:54:55] Speaker B: And I think that that's so important, because we. I lived in a space of. Where I had to follow the rules just to be safe. And that meant be perfect.
[00:55:04] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:55:06] Speaker B: And we just. Nobody's perfect. And we do. We live in a society that, in the gay space, you gotta be. That. The model is, you gotta be ripped. You gotta have a big dick. You gotta be sleeping with everybody. And that's just. Gosh, that. Cool. If that's. If you're able to do those things, or I. You just have that anatomy. Cool. But the reality is, we've got to practice.
I have to figure out what gay sex is like. I got to practice that. I have to figure out what community looks like. I got to practice at that.
[00:55:43] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:55:44] Speaker B: So I think I want to make sure that it's not left unsaid, because then other people. It. It removes the barrier where other people are like, oh, okay, I can. It's safe to practice here. And if we talk about it, then Joe may be able to say, hey, let's try that again. Or, hey, help me understand your intention. Behind that, so. And now you're having deeper relational conversation in your community, which I think is beautiful. It's what we're longing for.
[00:56:17] Speaker A: Yes, I agree. I agree. And you said, off the top, I don't think we were recording yet, but you said you're connecting with a lot of straight Mendenna to help learn this. And that is where I learned platonic intimacy with men is with straight men, and they have to be safe, straight men that are very accepting of us being gay. But it's been so beautiful, and I translate that over back into the gay world. And then I started to learn boundaries and how to maybe not touch. Right. Like, it's so interesting whenever I go out to, like, a gay bar, which is very rare, but, like, it's like, people, like, grab you and kiss you on the lips, and it's just so much. And I'm like, ugh, I don't want that. Like, I don't want you kissing me on the lips. Right. So it's like you're learning how to, like, really set boundaries and really kind of get clear about what it is that you want.
So I love that. And it sounds like you're maybe doing something similar.
[00:57:04] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Just. Just Sunday night, I hosted, like, five other guys at my house, and we're trying to unpack masculinity. And I said, hey, I really want to talk about intimacy, because I actually see younger males, straight males, doing it really well. Like, physically, they're able to hug one another or they're totally fine putting their arm around each other. And we see this in other cultures, Latin America and Asia, where. Africa, where you see the men spend time together. They hold hands, they have their arms around one another, but also these.
I know they're not boys, but they're so young. I'm like, these boys are saying, hey, I love you. How are you? They're already recognizing that they want a deeper level of intimacy. So going back to. We can learn few things, I think we're starting to see that in the. In the straight male space that we could definitely model in the gay space as we start to mentor and share our stories with the younger generation.
[00:58:13] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. That's the biggest complaint that people come to me in my counseling practice is they're lonely gay men. Lonely as shit. Right. And they have no ability to connect other than going on Grindr and having a cheap hookup that isn't. And satiating them. That's what I normally see. Right. So it's like, there's. And there's there's lots of things to unpack within that, but I just think you're right. I think a lot of us are craving something more. Like, sex is beautiful. It's great. It can be a really nice way to. To connect, but if that's the only way we're connecting, it's just not enough, in my opinion.
[00:58:46] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And think about, you know, there's. There's seven days a week, and you have to be able to do other things besides have sex, which is. Sex is beautiful. It's fantastic. There's more to it, though. So I agree with you. I'm seeing a lot more gay men be transparent about being lonely.
And I think this is one of those conversations that's starting to happen, which the next step is really kind of what we're doing is facing it head on and be able to say, okay, well, help me understand that a bit more. What's life like for you?
What would community look like for you? And I think that that will help build out the gay community as we're starting to see from. Just for me, just the past couple of years.
[00:59:39] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
For the sake of time, we're going to just jump to number six. How can we best mentor the next generation to have a positive of gay experience?
I'm curious, what are your thoughts on this?
[00:59:53] Speaker B: I'm still writing kind of like what my narrative is about being gay.
[00:59:58] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:59:58] Speaker B: I want people to know somebody cares about them, and I do that through sharing my story, asking people to share their story. So I think resetting the narrative around what the gay experience is, what gay community looks like, that there are multiple facets of it. So I think that's important, along with just being consistent in our actions.
Again, we got to practice, but if we really want to set the next generation up, well, then we really have to be consistent.
[01:00:37] Speaker A: Yes.
[01:00:39] Speaker B: Talk about what we've learned, what we're continuing to learn, and then just last thing I would say is, ask what they need. And they may not know exactly, but by hearing their story, spending time with them shows that you have an interest. When I think about mentoring from a leadership development perspective, it's pretty rare that the older person goes out and says, I would like to mentor you. And then the mentee is like, how the hell do you do this?
So it is this convergence of, hey, if you're further along and you have a story to share and you're realizing you don't have it all together, but you're healing and you're in enough space, we have an obligation to mentor the next generation. So it's about being in the space with them.
[01:01:35] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Well said. Wow. I love that. Resetting the narrative. That's a really beautiful way that. I love how you worded that because, you know, when you think about. Well, I'll speak for myself when I think about the gay community and have for most of my life, it's like drag queens, circuit parties, gay bars, you know, these sorts of things. And, like, that's like, maybe the mainstream gay community that's, like the low hanging fruit of. And I think when we start to connect more with the gay community, we realize that there's all sorts of offshoots. So I like the fact that a great way to mentor would be to lay out the smorgasbord and say, this is the options, at least from my perspective, and be resourceful. I think a mentor is somebody that's resourceful and able to provide information and wisdom and these sorts of things. So I do think that's huge.
And there was something else that you said that triggered something, and I wanted to in a good way. It'll come back if it's meant to, but the other thing I put down here was, don't always lead with sex and try new ways of connecting. I can't iterate that enough because we need to thicken up our repertoire as gay men. Like, we bring so much to the table. A lot of us are really smart, intelligent, successful.
You know, we bring so much to the table that there's more to us than just our bodies. So it's like, let's show up in different ways and show the younger generation that they don't just have to be confined by their appearance, what they look like, you know? And really we do that by learning to love our own bodies and not just identifying so much with our sex and using sex as a currency. Because then the younger generation will see that. Because I think it is energetic. I don't think it's just the words we speak. It's the energy. It's who we are. It's the energy we stand in. And if I stand in self love and strong body representation of myself, then the younger generation will feel that, too.
[01:03:42] Speaker B: Yeah. There's been a couple of articles published in the media over the past couple of weeks around Jen Z.
Not wanting to date and having less sex.
Now, as you dig into that, you're starting to recognize they are looking for resilient community.
They want to meet people who are not like them. They want to hear other people's stories.
So going back to how do we, as you're in your thirties, I'm in my forties.
Gays that are in their seventies, how do we learn from the generations that are coming behind us to be able to cultivate a new narrative, a new gay community where sex is part of it?
It's part of the human experience. There's so much more to us and we get the opportunity to get to know one another and learn from each other.
And then, yeah, sex may happen, but it ends up being about community. It's about relationships, it's about feeling safe, vulnerability, trust, all of those things, first and foremost.
[01:04:56] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. I agree. And culture is one, a big one, like teaching about culture. And then I think we can't have this conversation without talking about history. Like, part of being a mentor is teaching the younger community is where we come from. Right.
And setting them up with a great resource like the fellow travelers show. Like, it really, it kind of highlights where we come from and why some of the dysfunction is in our community is because of this past. And then again, how do we not recreate history is by being aware of how it was created in the first place. So can we steer the new direction into something healthier?
[01:05:34] Speaker B: That would be my perspective, yes, absolutely, Matt. Yep. I agree 100%.
[01:05:39] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
So before we wrap up, I want to give you an opportunity just to tell the audience a little bit about whether you want to talk about your book or any sort of thing, that new thing that you coming up or where they can find you, that sort of thing.
[01:05:55] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. So you could. You could find me on Instagram and Facebook.
I met just at jmaxton on Instagram and Jo Maxton on Facebook. You can also, if you're interested in leadership development, you can find me on LinkedIn.
[01:06:11] Speaker A: Those will all be in the show notes as well, just so everybody knows.
[01:06:14] Speaker B: Oh, great. Thank you. And then my book, Chryso, a carnival kids quest for home, family and belonging really is my unpacking of being neglected by a mom that just didn't have the capacity. Really? Parents that didn't have the capacity.
We've spent a lot of time talking about trauma. We spent time talking about our own wounds. And then the reality is we only have so much capacity based on our story. And depending on the work that you've done, ultimately it led me to a space of being able to accept being gay, a part of myself. Joey, seven years old, really emotionally leading me until my forties, until I started going to therapy. And then ultimately the book ends with recognizing, for me, it was really finding community, faith, and then doing the hard work of therapy that allowed me to love that part of myself.
I thought that I had to cut the gay part out of me, and that would be the. That was the only solution. But as I dug into therapy, realizing actually I need to accept that part of myself. And it was the first time I could really breathe ever in my life.
And so it's this story of growing up in the carnival in Tucson, Arizona, which is where Creosote rain comes from, the title of the book. So you can check them out. Check the book out on audible if you want to listen to it. And then also kind of anywhere you want to buy a book on the Internet.
[01:08:05] Speaker A: Very cool. Yeah. Sounds like almost like a memoir of how you raised your own inner child. That's what it sounds like.
[01:08:12] Speaker B: Yep. Absolutely. Meeting Joey for the first time was scary, actually. Yeah, it was totally worth it.
[01:08:22] Speaker A: Cool. Cool.
Awesome. Well, I want to just thank you on behalf of myself and the community for coming and sharing your wisdom with us. It's always appreciative, and hopefully this leads to some connections for you in the community. Maybe people reach out and relate to your story. I love that. About this podcast. We hear that all the time from our guests as people. It brought them a lot of cool connections and things like that. So my wish for you is that. That some cool people come to you and, yeah, hopefully we'll have another episode. I like connecting with you. It feels. Feels quite easy. So we'll see what the universe has in store for us moving forward.
[01:09:03] Speaker B: Yeah, this has been wonderful, Matt. What a great conversation. It's something that we need to keep talking about. So happy to be a part of it.
[01:09:10] Speaker A: Yeah, you bet.
And for people that are watching on YouTube, feel free to leave us.
What would we want to know? I would want to know what you need in the community as far as mentorship. Like, last question. How can we best mentor the next generation to have a positive gay experience? I'd love to hear people's thoughts on that in the comments. And if you're listening on your favorite podcast platform, please give us a five star rating if you enjoyed what you heard, because as always, it gets us into the ears of the people that need to hear these stories for their own healing journey. So.
And, yeah, much love to everybody. And until next time, bye.
