Body Shaming

[00:00:02] Speaker A: Welcome to Gay Men going deeper, a podcast series by the gay men's Brotherhood where we talk about personal development, mental health and sexuality. We are your hosts. Michael Diorio is a life and wellness coach specializing in sexuality, relationships and confidence. Self confidence. Reno Johnson is a spiritual life, love and business coach. And I'm Matt Lancadell, a counselor and facilitator specializing in healing and empowerment. We each have our own private practice and in this podcast we're sharing all of our best stuff with you guys. Today we're talking about body shaming. Not the most glamorous topic to talk about, but one that is actually quite important, especially in our community because it's so prevalent. And not just in our community, it's prevalent in the world. I think there's a lot of it. So we're going to unpack this today and see what we can do about it, and we're going to be exploring questions like how have you been impacted by body shame? In what ways have you felt shame about your own body? What contributes to body shaming in society and or the gay community? And what can we do to overcome body shaming? So we'll continue these discussions on the last Thursday of every month in the Gaiman's Brotherhood Zoom hangout where you will have a chance to come and share your own experience with us. This podcast and YouTube channel are listener and viewer supported. If you enjoy what we're creating, you can support us by making a donation to the show by using the link in the show notes. You can also subscribe to early access option on Apple Podcasts, listen ad free and gain early access to episodes. All your support helps us to continue making content for you and supporting our community. And we do thank you in advance for that. If you're looking to accelerate your personal development journey, you can check out our coaching collection, learn how to heal and empower yourself at your own pace by getting instant access to 45 plus premium personal development coaching videos created by us, as well as our healing your shame and building better relationships courses so you can head over to gay men going deeper.com for more information. Okay, so as I said, off the top, our community has a lot of body image issues. You know, I'm sure you two would probably agree with me when I would say probably 80% of people in my private practice. As gay men struggle with having a healthy relationship with their body, there's a lot of pressure that they put on their body. There's a lot of pressure that they feel from society that they then therefore internalize and put on their body. So I think we place a heavy reliance on our body as gay men for worse. Approval, validation, these sorts of things. And it becomes a currency in our community. And so there is a lot of pressure that we put on ourselves as well, to look a certain way, to feel a certain way about our bodies and when we don't feel that, it can be really challenging. So we're here today to kind of share a bit of our challenges and how we have maybe overcome or, you know, I think even for myself, I still deal with this in certain capacities. So how I am working through it, I should say. So when you're listening, I want you just to think about body shaming in this context. We could be looking at it through the lens of, like, shaming others, right. And participating or perpetuating the shame that is coming from the systems, the oppressive systems. And it could also be us receiving it. So are we participating in it or are we receiving it? Both, likely. So we want to look at the ways in which we are contributing to this, in the ways of giving and receiving. I want you to also think about where it's coming from when we're having this conversation today. So society at large, the gay community, oppressive systems, purity, culture, each other, right? So we internalize this stuff from the system, and then we feed it to each other. And a lot of times it's unconscious. We're not even aware we're doing it. Um, ourselves, you know, um, putting this pressure on ourselves. Um, so we want to kind of look at the roots today, and then we want to look at the foliage, right. The roots. Where is it coming from in a deeper sense? And then how are we. How are we growing it and making it more, um. And this can show up in different ways, like covert, uh, and overt. So I just wrote down a couple here, like, media messages around beauty standards is a big one. So, like, who is in the media? Who is in the magazines? We're looking at, like, you know, these sorts of things because they can really. They can really lead to that. And then we can be comparing our. The way we look to the standards that are being set for us by the systems. People bullying us for our appearance. Again, that would be. Tend to be more of an overt way of experiencing body shaming. Could be talking poorly about ourselves, participating in self deprecation, whether that be for humor or whatever. And I see this a lot, actually. And this is a big, big thing that. And I'll set a boundary if somebody's talking poorly about themselves in my presence, I'll set a boundary with them and just tell them that, you know, it's not something that I. That I want to be around. So, you know, and people are usually pretty taken aback by that, but I just think it's so harmful, even if we're doing it as a joke, I think it's really harmful to be self deprecating. You know, I, like, I'm all about love and people feeling good, so I want to encourage that when in people's dialogue. So we have our first question. So how have you been impacted by body shame? And in what ways have you felt shame about your own body? And we'll start with Reno. [00:05:50] Speaker B: Well, two things I want to say before I dig in. One, I am so distracted by Michael's body right now because it's all tan and sexy. You look amazing. [00:06:02] Speaker C: Thank you. [00:06:03] Speaker A: Just got back from Mexico or Dominican. [00:06:06] Speaker C: Dominican Republic. [00:06:07] Speaker B: Yeah, I was in Puerto Vallarta. Yeah. [00:06:10] Speaker C: Amazing. [00:06:10] Speaker B: Delicious. Yeah. And the other thing is, like, I don't know if you guys have these moments, but, like, I have these moments sometimes where I'm like, man, we get to do this. Like, it's so cool that we're having this conversation about body shame and, like, thousands, thousands of people are going to hear it and it's going to help them. So that just, like, hit me once again. I love it. So, you know, for me, I can remember being impacted by body shame at an early age. It was, you know, it was one of the ways that kids in my neighborhood and at school got under my skin. They would, you know, there were, like, they would make fun of me for being skinny, or they would make fun of me for the color of my skin, or they would make fun of me for my juicy bottom lip. You know, I call it juicy now, but even my dad, like, you know, playfully, but it's stuck. Like, he would say, you know, tuck in your lip, you're going to trip on it. Right. And just things like that, which are, like, they're funny. I can laugh at it for sure. And also, like, there's, you know, there's power in words. And a lot of those things stuck. What I remember was, you know, things like, like, I was too. I was too brown, I was too dark, I was too skinny, I was too short, I was too chubby. You know, my eyes were not light enough or my nose was too big or my hair was weird or, you know, my, like, my. Again, my bottom lip. And then the other thing is, I have lighter skinned and lighter eyed siblings, and I was constantly hearing people say, like, oh, my God, you're so beautiful. Your eyes are so gorgeous, or, like, look at your hair, right? And there were always praise in a way that felt different than what I was receiving right now. That's not to say that I wasn't recognized for my physical appearance, but it just. It was different. And I noticed that I picked up on that at an early age and then seeing a lot of white bodies represented and celebrated for their looks and their beauty, etcetera, in ways that I was not. Like, that really stuck with me. And so many subtleties as well. You know, just in, like, the dolls I saw, you know, when I was a kid, I actually played with Barbie dolls with my sister and the girl next door. And, you know, you look at this, like, figure and the way it's built, and my understanding is that it's not even, like, the proportions are not even accurate to a real, properly functioning human body. And that tells you, like, how skewed our standard of beauty is. It's wild. And so, you know, this is a lot of the messaging that I'm getting as I'm young. And then as I start to progress, you know, I get to high school and there's puberty and, you know, people are filling out in different ways, and maybe I'm not yet. And so I was sort of this, like, skinny, kind of gangly kid, and, you know, my. My voice hadn't deepened and I hadn't really grown into my features. And so, you know, again, I was getting made fun of. And then when hair started to develop on my body as well, that was another thing that I was made fun of for which people really seem to appreciate these days. But I didn't know that was coming back then. And so, you know, throughout high school, there was that. And then. And then also, I mean, there's all the locker room stuff as well, right? Whose penis is bigger than whose? And, you know, what's going on down there? So it just seemed. It just seemed to follow me around constantly. And I'm sure I'm not alone in this. I think we all navigate this and then right into sort of early adulthood where, you know, I happily started to fill out. And I'll never forget, I was sitting at school after I graduated. I came to visit, and someone said, is that Reno? And I turned around, and they were like, whoa, you filled out. And I remember feeling, like, so gratified in that moment because I just felt appreciated for my physical appearance in a way that I hadn't before. And that memory really stays with me, what also started to happen was that as I came out and I started connecting with the gay community, I started hearing and noticing and picking up on and internalizing these new standards of beauty and attractiveness. Like being really skinny or really muscular was. Was quite glorified. And so I started noticing that I was comparing myself to those standards and trying to pursue them. And what I developed was the eating disorder as a result. So I was navigating bulimia for several years, actually. I would like, you know, I would eat a, let's say, junk food in the evenings or something like that, and then I'd feel crappy about it, and I would make myself sick. And I really, really strived to be thin and toned and even hairless. I remember I would shave my body hair as well. And so I was being pulled in all of these different directions in terms of beauty standards and my body, and I wasn't. I really was not caring for it and treating it in the way I do these days. And there was a lot of sadness about that. And, you know, at some point, that that changed and that shifted. And I'll, you know, I'll probably talk a bit more about that in detail as we have this conversation. But I just started to see that the way I was relating to my body and the external inputs that I was engaging with were no longer serving me. And this wasn't working. What I was doing was not working. It was not serving me. And that was really the beginning of an inquiry and a journey to where I am now, you know, which is a place where I listen to my body, I nourish and nurture my body. I love my body, and I care for it in a variety of ways that are fun, that are joyous, that are not shameful, and we're just warming up. Yeah. Yeah. So that's like the cliff's notes. I mean, I could say so much more, but, yeah. Thank you, and we will. [00:13:52] Speaker C: We'll be saying more on this. Right? So, thank you, Reno. Yeah. I purposely asked Matt not to go first because I didn't know what I wanted to say. And now, as expected, you both have inspired to put a bit within me. So thank you for sharing. I think the first thing I want to say is what you said about your siblings 100% was my first experience with them feeling insecure or ashamed about my body. I have an older brother who is athletic, you know, taller. He was taller. Athletic, you know, all the things a good boy should be. And I was always the shortest kid in class. I was always put at the end of the school picture because I was short one. And I just remember, like, in my, in my italian family, my grandparents, and wanting to feed me more to make me big, make me big, make me grow, and I just wouldn't, like, I am what I am, right? I was also not just short, but scrawny, like, skinny. I just wouldn't put on any weight. I was always the skinny, scrawny kid. And again, hearing, like you had said, reno, hearing him get all the praise for being so big and muscular and athletic and all these things was my first instance of, like, oh, I'm not, something's wrong with my body, right? Because it was always these messages of, be different, be bigger, get stronger, and, oh, wow, brother, you're so much. You're so much more, I don't know, athletic. And that was a good thing. So that was the first thing, which was not helpful. And then fast forward to being gay and coming out still being kind of scrawny. Not as much short, but scrawny. I remember feeling very, very uncomfortable taking my shirt off in any context, which, for those of you who know me now, is kind of ridiculous because I love being shirtless and bottomless, for that matter. But in the early days, I would never, I wouldn't want to take my shirt off at the gym, in gym class, at a pool, nothing like that. I refused to go. So again, it was that. I think it was that mentality of something's wrong with me, or I'm not muscular enough, especially in the gay community, where that is very much an idolized body type. So, you know, fast forward. We've talked about this before. I did end up for other reasons, start going to a gym and working on my body and getting it to the place that I wanted to be, where I felt good about it. It was, at the time, not necessarily motivated by what I would call the most healthy motivation, but there I was, and I have since changed that, which we've talked about on previous episodes. So now I'm at a point where I will say that it's not, I mean, I'm not perfect by any means, but I definitely feel where. I feel that insecurity come up on things. Like, let's say if I'm at a, especially around other gay men where, like, let's say I'm at a beach, like Canlins or any kind of gay beach where there's a lot of guys without shirts on or at a club where shirts are going to come off or anything like that. That's where I tend to feel more. These triggers tend to come up within me because I'm not as young as I used to be. Things aren't as tight as they used to be. Uh, you know, my body has changed, but I guess I. I'm coming to terms with the fact that that's okay. That's normal. Like, nothing has gone wrong, but I still sense it within me. Like, oh, I'm going to be in a picture with all these people. You know, how. How am I going to compare? Because I know the gays are going to be, like, looking at us, like, on Instagram and whatnot. And I see this a lot. I see the guys, when pictures are being taken, if it's, like, at a beach or a club, everyone's rushing to see what it looks like to make sure it's okay that they can post it on Instagram. And, like, that says a lot, I think. I mean, I'm guilty of that, too. I'm like, oh, no, no, we can't post that. Let's do it again. And, like, everyone sucks in, right? And I see that a lot, but I think it perpetuates it. I think that's one of the problems, is that we perpetuate it. So I get the fact that we want to look good and that we want to put that out there, but at the same time, what does that say? Right? What are we saying about just being a very natural, being in a natural pose where your belly may be out a little bit more and you're not puffing out your chest? I think that's very interesting. And that's how it shows up for me these days. So, not perfect, but I'm doing my best. How about you, Matt? [00:17:48] Speaker A: Yeah, thanks, guys. You know what I think everybody should have to do is have a recording of themselves when they're taking selfies or pictures in the mirror or whatever. It's like, it ain't the first one. Trust me. It's like the 20th one that people post, right? It's like they get it perfect and they ready for the gram and all this crap. And it's like, again, you're right. It's perpetuating this problem. And so I love when people are vulnerable and they share shit like that, you know, like, just different, different things. I think it's really important to let people know, like, the reality of what is actually here. No filters, no photoshopping, no all this crap. And it's like, yeah, I just. I've learned to actually be more attracted to authenticity and, you know, even a little bit of a gut on a guy. I'm like, it's like, not a. Not a big, big thing. [00:18:35] Speaker C: So how this really showed up for me was when I think I told the story before, but I'll say it again. Uh, so when we went to Puerto Vallarta in 2021, maybe 2022, I'm not sure what it was, but it was when Ontario, where I live, was still in lockdown and there were no gyms open. But, like, everywhere else in North America was kind of like, back to regular. So we all go to Puerto Vallarta. Like, I was not in the shape that I wanted to be, and all these pictures are being taken, and I just had to be like, well, this is what we got. And that was where the, that's where I had to do the work, because my other option was like, what? Just not like, hide? And I was like, no, you just have to accept that this is where you are. But that's when I noticed it, that it was very much still alive within me. Um, and that's where I kind of had to have that harsh reality that, oh, I have some work to do on this. [00:19:19] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I remember we recorded a video similar to this or a podcast similar to this with Callan, the three of us, Michael. And I remember I was talking about me being on a paddleboarding trip. This was two years ago, and I hadnt worked out in two years at that time. And my body was changing in a big way. It was the first time in my life that I didnt look like, well, that I didnt have abs or I didnt. Right. And I remember seeing the photo after, and I was just like, I was so mortified. I was like, oh, my God. And then now I go back to that picture, and im like, what was I upset about? Like, I don't look that bad. It's just funny how, like, it we can have, like, body dysmorphia and the way we view ourselves and the way we see ourselves, because I think we're always comparing ourselves to this image we have in our mind of what we should be, which for a lot of us will never be that we'll never. Right? Because it's like, you know, even when I was fitness training and I was on stage and I was stage ready and I was ripped, like I was starving myself, like I had no food in my body, I was using salt to deplete my muscles of, of any water. Like all of these things, these, these tricks. And then that's the image I have in my mind. That I have to be, it's crazy. It's absolutely crazy. So, um, but this is, this is a big thing that actually fed into my body. Shaming was, um, you know, both of my parents growing up, I've said this before, were into bodybuilding and fitness. And so I always saw this. I was at the gym all the time. I would see ripped bodies. And then when I was around 18, I started working out myself and I started buying fitness magazines. Um, they had a dual purpose and, yeah, exactly. And, uh, but I started to really create that image in my mind of the body that I wanted. And like you guys both, I was very scrawny. I'm totally an ectomorph, I'm very, very lean. Um, and I, it wasn't until I would say, my late twenties, early thirties that I was able to start putting weight on without eating like insane amounts of calories. So I always had this mental image of me being too skinny. I equated skinny with being feminine and I didn't want to be feminine. I wanted to be masculine and I wanted to be desired. I wanted to be the alpha guy. I brought into all this crap around ego. The fitness industry is just inundated with that mentality, like ego, alpha crap and shaming. I think the fitness industry actually uses shame and body shaming as a strategy to get people motivated. I use air quotes to make body changes. So how many of our transformations, and I'll speak for myself, how many of my transformations over the course of my fitness career were motivated by shame? Every single one of them. And I had to really go into a deep place of healing myself in the last four years to now being like, okay, I'm starting to get ready to think about wanting to go back to the gym again or working out again, but I'm doing it from a place of like, love. And all the odd time I'll like, be in my living room and working out from home. So I'm not getting that validation from people looking at me or anything like that. So I'm trying to heal that part. Um, you know, just different things like that. And I also like to work out naked at home. It's like really awesome. So, like, you're kind of like seeing yourself in the mirror and you're seeing all your, you know, like the parts that aren't perfect, right? And you're, and it's, part of it is reconciling that and learning to love your body as it is. Um, so there's a, and there's a couple things. A couple, like, you know, things that really stood out when I was thinking about this. And I've had a couple things happen in my life that. That really made me feel shame. And one of them was when I was about, oh, geez, maybe 15, I started to get really, really bad acne. I had horrible cystic acne. It was all over my face, and it was very traumatizing for me. It was, uh. And when I was about 17, I remember I was with my mom and my sister, and we were in a subway, like a subway sandwich shop. And it was really busy, and I was in line waiting, and there was a man beside me with his son, and his son was probably, like, three or four years old. And I remember I turned and he turned and we both looked at each other and he was, like, mortified. He was like, oh, my God, he was scared because my face was all red. It had acne all over it. And he said really loud, he's like, daddy. He's like, what's all over that man's face? And, oh, my God, my heart dropped. I was completely mortified. I was. It was just like, that's the feeling that I have when I think about shame. Like, it just washes over your body. It's hot. The face gets hot. And my mom and sister, like, heard it, too. So they looked over and, like, I could just tell, like, they, like, wanted to cry for me. Like, they were so sad, but I just. I didn't even know how to react. I was just super embarrassed. I was, you know, flush in the face, but, yeah. And, you know, when I think about it, I'm like, that could have been a perfect opportunity, you know, like a teaching opportunity for that child. But I just, like, I couldn't even go there. I just, like, went back to my seat and so that really stood out. That was like, a really, you know. And even now still to this day, like, my acne scars, because I still have them. Like, they. There's something that I'm insecure about. Um, but I think I've come a long way with them. Like, they used to really bother me. I've had them, like, lasered a bunch of times. I remember, um, when I was, like, probably my early twenties, I, like, saved up a bunch of money and went to, like, the dermatologist and got them lasered. It cost me, like, 1500 per treatment or something like that, and it didn't really work that well. Um, so these have been kind of a representation of, like, um, where I've been to and kind of the struggles that I've had to go through and the. And learning how to love myself and accept myself, even when it feels almost impossible to love or accept yourself, you know? So I kind of, like, I'll look at myself in the mirror now, and I'm just kind of like, you know, there's a part of me that just, like, they're just a part of who I am, and I've learned to love them. But then there's also a part of me that feels like, what would it be? It's like, especially in lighting, certain lighting, they can be worse. So I notice, like, if I'm out on a date or something, I'm worried about direct lighting coming from above. It'll really highlight the divots, and it makes me feel insecure. What is this guy thinking? Does he think they're ugly or whatever? So it's like, I know there's still some work to do in learning how to love myself, which I think is an ongoing thing. We're all going to have things that we have that. It's like a lifelong journey, learning how to love them and accept them. So that's a big one for me to. And, yeah, I think I'll stop there. That feels. That feels like a good enough share. [00:26:13] Speaker B: I want to respond to something you said, and thank you so much for everything you shared. You talked about the teaching opportunity, and that really stood out to me because I had this image of you there and this kid and his sort of reaction or response to, you know, seeing you and your response to, you know, to his expression and, like, what I envisioned is this. Yeah. This beautiful moment where, you know, you get to sort of kneel down and lean in and explain what's happening there and how it. How. How it feels and that it's okay. And, you know, I just. It's what it. I guess what it did for me, imagining and envisioning that scenario is it had me reflect on how I would love to respond to those moments as they occur in the future and how I would love to support those coming up and those around me in responding to situations like that when they occur. Because what, like, I love that you use the word opportunity, and I really see it as that, like, what a beautiful opportunity when our shame is triggered to, like, to, you know, to kneel down, to get close, to get connected and to respond rather than react. Like, what a healing experience, you know? [00:27:46] Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. And, you know, I think that comes from me now. But then I was like, if I could have had a button that I could have just, like, dropped into a hole. I would have. I was like, get me out of here. And the poor father, too, like, looking back, like, he must have just been equally as mortified as I was, you know? So it was just an all around shitty situation. But, yeah, it was meant to happen, or otherwise it wouldn't have happened. I was meant to go through that experience and the fact that it still. [00:28:15] Speaker C: Sticks with you, right? [00:28:17] Speaker A: Oh, like, I can hear that kid's voice in my head like it was yesterday. Like, it's so. Like. Yeah, it's crazy. Crazy. Yeah, yeah. But, yeah, again, it's like, you know, we look at, like, what does shame teach us? Well, teaches us self compassion. Right? Like, teaches us how to learn to love ourselves. And, you know, and I want to also iterate, too. Like, it's. This. This episode isn't about, like, learning how to remove it. You can't remove shame. It's like saying we're going to remove sadness or jealousy or these things. They're human emotions. You can't remove them. But we can develop resilience to them. And I think resilience to shame is, like, self compassion and self love and vulnerability and these sorts of things, so. [00:29:00] Speaker C: And sharing, like, you just did, like, we are today. [00:29:03] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I love that. And I. I want to. I want to piggyback on that again as well and say, like, the color of my skin hasn't changed, you know? Or like, the way my eyes look. Like maybe they've shifted, but that, you know, my eyes are still the same color. I still have that. Like, you know, that the shape of my nose is still the same. You know, my bottom lip is still juicy, and the top one's just a little bit smaller. But I've, you know, I've grown into these things, but they haven't changed. But what has changed is how. How I relate to them. You know, I now, because I love those things about myself when people comment on them, whether it's praise or scrutiny, because both can actually create the sensation of, oh, no, someone's focusing on this thing for any reason, you know, at all. But it's like, because I have reconciled with those parts of myself and I have grown to love and appreciate them. I take it all lightly and with a grain of salt, it's like, oh, okay. You know, thank you. Yeah, that's there. And it's less like, it's less like. What's the word? Like, jarring, like flooring. I can't think of another word, but it's just. Yeah, it's just less of a punch when someone brings attention to it, because I dealt with it. [00:30:31] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. That's beautiful. I want to hear more about that and how you've done that, but we'll save that for the last question. [00:30:37] Speaker B: Totally. [00:30:40] Speaker A: Okay, Reno, so what contributes to body shaming in society or the gay community in specific? [00:30:47] Speaker B: Yeah, I love this question you mentioned in the beginning. And I think, like, what I see is we do it to ourselves, we do it to each other, and then there's a. There's a capitalist system and a sort of collective psychology that, and I might even say psychosis as well, that seems to, like, contribute to it, you know? And I think that when we're, quote unquote in our right minds, that sort of behavior kind of doesn't make sense. It's like we're. There's something sobering that happens maybe when we're connected and we're awake and we're like, whoa, what? Like, why was I subscribed to this? Click, click, unsubscribe. Like, no, but when we're in it, like, it's really challenging to kind of not engage it, not contribute to it, not perpetuate it. And I think in society, in the gay community, I've got to say, yeah, it's those three things. I think it's like, you know, there's the media and all of these images we see constantly, whether it's, like, what's presented on apps or what's presented on television or what's presented in music, you know, what's presented in magazine and print, you know, across the board, and. And also what is not just presented, but what is praise, what is spotlighted, you know? How often do you see someone with a particular skin tone or hair type or eye color or body type, you know, chiseled or slim or what have you, versus seeing someone who's a bit juicier, you know, and, you know, or who's a bit darker, what have you. It's like, what does that tell you about what we're valuing about, what seems to take precedence in the public eye? So I think that's a big part of it. And then just how we internalize that, and then we speak to ourselves and one another and view ourselves and one another. And I thought about this when we were leading up to this conversation, and I had this vision in my mind. So imagine a projector, right? So you have these projectors, and, like, they, you know, they use light and this sort of glass to project an image out into the world. And then you see that image and imagine the lens of that projector is covered in soot. And so you may believe that what you're seeing projected outward is what's actually there, when in fact, it's a distorted image. Right. And so you come in and you kind of wipe the distortion and you get a clear picture. Well, to me, that distortion is all of this stuff we're being bombarded with, you know, that is inspiring and feeding the shame within us. And conversations like this and the work that we do is a way to, you know, to begin to, like, to cleanse that and to get a real clear and true image of who you actually are, you know, and. And the purpose your body actually serves. Which I'll, you know, probably say more about later. But, yeah, I think becoming really curious and questioning what we believe about our bodies, what we're taught about our bodies. And what we say about our bodies and each other's bodies. Such powerful and transformative work. You know, it. Like, is it true? You know, ask. I ask myself that a lot, you know? So, yeah. Yeah, I think that would be my answer to that question. [00:34:58] Speaker C: Yeah, I think we can write thesis theses, theses on this. Like, I'm sure there have been. But there's probably a lot to say on this topic on what contributes to it, as I was thinking about it. So you guys know that I'm really into, like, queer history. I've always been really interested in that. And one of the things that I remember and learning about sort of the gay liberation movement, at least in North America in the sixties and seventies. And there's a reason I'm going to share this. But one of the things that came out of that Washington, um, gay men specifically, wanting to reclaim what it means to be masculine. Because for a long time, up until that point, the hetero world had labeled gay people as feminine and weak. And we were marginalized and bullied, basically. Literally. Think of Stonewall and whatnot. So as that liberation movement happened, there was a very conscious, concerted effort to prove to the world that we are masculine and strong. And so from that came this movement of going to the gym, getting fit. Think of the village people. Think of. Think of that kind of motif that became. And what's it called? The guy, the artist that has the really big muscles and the tight jeans. What's his name? I'm forgetting what it's called. You guys know what I'm talking about? I forget his name. If you remember, just throw it out there for me. But, yeah, that came out of that movement. So it was a way to stand up and say, like, fuck you to the hetero peoples. Like, we're strong, we're here, we're masculine. Like, drop this label of weak feminine. Right. So that muscular, ripped body became Tomah, Finland. [00:36:44] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. [00:36:45] Speaker C: That. That kind of image kind of became the poster of gay liberation in one way, but also the gay movement. So that's where it comes from. And I think that's great. It comes from a very nice place, and I get that, but I think it's kind of taken a turn and has not served us anymore. It's become the standard to the point where it's almost, well, it is unhelpful, and not just now in social media, but that became the standard for porn. It became the standard for anything, any magazines of the time. And it has sort of fed in through the eighties, nineties, and even today. So I grew up in the nineties in that erade. Um, and for me, my first images of gayness were queer as folk will and grace Abercrombie and boy bands. And so if you think to that, white, white, everybody was white. Um, and then the other thing was like, they all had that look, that, like, pretty boy, all american abs, muscular kind of look. And thinking back to, uh, queer spoken grace, there was a lot of jokes at the expense of, you know, they called will fat. Jack was always calling will Fatty will and fat, fat, fat, all these things. And even in queer spoke, there was a lot of that as well. And kind of, to Matt's point at the beginning here, there is a lot of that still, like, joking kind of, you know, calling people these names, but it might be in jest, but, you know, it tells us something, right? So that, I think has a lot to do with that. I just want to give a bit of the history to say where it comes from because I think it is interesting, but it does need to kind of take a shift. And in many ways, I think it has. And I don't know if that's just because of where I live and that the circles I surround myself with. Like, I'm very intentional and mindful about the people that I'm with and the accounts that I follow on social media, but I do think it is getting better and has gotten better. And I think there is a deep desire and intention for it to get better. But at the end of the day, I think something that contributes to it is the fact that we say we want more body positivity, but our actions say differently. And I think that has a lot to do with it as well. So going back to in the game and brotherhood Facebook group, we talked about this. When people post things, it's very common for the pretty people to get a lot of likes, comments hey, nice to meet you, message me. Blah, blah, blah, blah. Whereas the less traditionally pretty folks don't get that same response sometimes. And I just always think that's interesting. Right. So is that a Facebook problem? Is that an us problem? I'm not sure the answer to that, but I think it's definitely something that does contribute to it. We really have to work hard in today's social media worlds to like trip up the algorithm, because the algorithm is what feeds us what we think, what they think we want to see. And that really pisses me off because I can tell you on my explore page on Instagram, I still see all these things that I do not care for. Like, I don't know, want to see this guy and it's not good content that, that I'm looking for. And so I know I'm a little bit peeved at this, because while I think that it is a bit of the algorithm, at the same time, I think the algorithm doesn't care and it's just going to feed me what it wants to feed me. So I think a lot of it has to do with what we choose and what we select to engage with on the Internet, whether it's in the Facebook group or on social media and even the kinds of porn we watch. So media literacy has a lot to do with it. It, I mean, we can get more into that in the next section, but I think what contributes to it is the fact that we're all buying into it and then it keeps getting fed back to us. So kind of like what Rina was talking about with this projector. We're putting it on the projector, it gets put on that, into the world back, and then we're consuming it and then perpetuating it. So we have to just work twice as hard. And that makes it seem like an uphill battle. But I think it's really important that we do so. [00:40:36] Speaker A: Yeah, that's great points. It really, you're sure stimulated a lot for me. I'm noticing with the algorithm that when I stop on something, I don't have to like it even, or even comment or engage with it, just stopping on it and then continuing to scroll, more of what I stopped on will come. So I think on the Facebook group, what's happening is when people think the guy's hot. They stop and stare at the picture like it, whatever, and then that's what's perpetuating it. So it's really fascinating. It's like, what's causing people to stop and look, right. Traditional beauty standards of what they think is beautiful. So, yeah, I think we've done a good job as a community, though, to deal with that and to kind of bring awareness to that, because I do see a lot of people just commenting on all people's stuff now, and it's like, whereas maybe two years ago in our group, it wasn't like that. So I think it's, we've, we've taught people consciously how to distribute attention to people and not just value people based off of how they look. The other thing I wanted to comment on is the Tom of Finland. The whole, this whole thing about, like, you know, we'll, we'll be masculine, we'll show you. And it's just really funny because I think that backfired, like you said, in a way, but it's also like we, we stepped into what they're doing in the heteronormative world anyway, so it's like we just shot ourselves in the foot. It's like, I'll prove to you that I can be just like you, you know what I mean? And now I do agree with you. I think we're kind of undoing that a bit. And it's like now you have a lot of people that are putting forward femininity in a really strong and empowered way. But I also think it's coming from shadow in some aspects, too, because it's like, you know, this whole notion of pride, I think pride and shame are kind of interconnected, and it's like we feel like we have to be prideful because we feel ashamed, right? So it's like, I would love to see our culture just practice more acceptance and love as opposed to having to constantly be proud of things and throwing what we are around to be like, we'll show you, we'll be more muscular or we'll be feminine. If you're not going to allow femininity, it's kind of like, I dont know, theres a shadow side to rebellion and then theres also a conscious side to rebellion. And I think im also trying to reconcile this within myself as well. So I think its a big part of how we can move forward and start to move away from shame and more towards acceptance because I think pride is an extension of shame, whereas I think acceptance is an extension of love. So its just kind of approaching it from a different angle. But I think I wrote down very similar things to what you guys put. So obsession with white muscle or masculine muscular jocks. So just really rigid beauty standards and then people buying into this. Right? And again, I'm a huge advocate for self responsibility, as I always talk about on this podcast. And I'm more of an individualist. So if we want to correct that, we have to stop putting those people on pedestals. Right. We have to start distributing the power accordingly. Right. So it's like if we're constantly idolizing that, then that's going to constantly be the thing that we're all obsessed with, right? So it starts with us as individuals saying, I'm not going to continue to perpetuate idolizing something that is robbing me of feeling empowered in my. Whatever, right. My color of my skin, the shape of my body, these sorts of things. Another one is body alteration for the wrong reasons. And I air quote, wrong reasons because it. This is just my perception of it. They might be the right reasons for you, but things like plastic surgery, botox, steroids, like these things that are body modification, like, I understand. It's like some people have this mentality of look good, feel good, and that's what contributes to that for them. And that's really awesome. I think that's great. I'm not here to shame that, but I know for me, when I've done the tanning or the lasering on my face or any of these sorts of things, it's just sending a message to my body that it's not good the way that it is, that I can only be beautiful and feel good about myself when I change who I am. Right. I feel the same way about women wearing a lot of makeup. Right. It's like we're sending the message that what's underneath the makeup isn't acceptable to share with the world. So we have to constantly be covering up so people don't think what's underneath is ugly. Right. Like, I love this notion of, like, share, share who we are, share the imperfections. I think those are beautiful, but those only started to become beautiful for me when I started to appreciate my own imperfections, right? Like learning to love my. My skin and, like, you're learning to accept my skin. It's like I'm now no longer like, you know, like judging other people for that because it's a projection when I was right. So these sorts of things are really, really important, and I think they breed in to perfectionism. And again, perfectionism is an extension of shame. So when we feel like we can only show our perfections and we have to body modify constantly, I think it's just coming usually from a place of shame. But I could be wrong, and I'm not speaking for other people. I'll speak for myself when I say that shaming bodily functions and labeling them as gross, I think this is a big one, and I'm guilty of it, too. I have, like, I've talked about this on the podcast. I have sensitive olfactory system, and I get grossed out easily. So I try and reconcile this. But what that does for me is it perpetuates my own shame. So I'm always worried, like, does my breath smell or. Right, like, if I fart, like, should I feel ashamed about that? Like, these sorts of things, and it's like human beings when you think about it. Like, we all have these bodily functions and, you know, learning how to not carry shame around them. But it's. It's funny, like, you know, when people fart or poop or whatever, and it's like when you're first getting to know someone on a date, like, that feeling of shame that can come up around, like, oh, well, they think I'm disgusting, right? So these are. These are, I think, part of society's, you know, shaming. Size of body parts. Size of the body, I think, is a big one, and another one is, like, sex. And I think sex and shame are, like, synonyms. They go together, like, so, so well. And I think people, you know, like, looking at purity culture and these sorts of things and shaming people for what they do with their body. And I just. I'm such an advocate of, like, stay in your own lane, because it's like, it doesn't matter what other people are doing with their body. Like, focus on what you're doing with your body. Like, that's it, right? Unless what the person's doing with their body is obviously impacting something in the sense of, like, non consent or a minor or something like that. Obviously, that goes without saying. But when it comes to people and what they do with their body, I'm just like, hey, go for it. Like, do what feels good for you. Seek your pleasure in the ways that feel good for you, right? That's what. That's how I kind of try and approach. Approach things. But I do see a lot of. A lot of sexual shaming happening in our culture in different ways. Right? Like, it can come from people, like, shaming people for being prudish or people shaming people for being promiscuous. Like, it doesn't just come at people who are promiscuous. I think it comes in the other direction as well, too. But, yeah, so those are just some of the ways that I see it showing up. Last question, Reno. What can we do to overcome body shaming? [00:48:11] Speaker B: Wow. No pressure. Yeah. Well, I want to start by saying it's so important. It's so important to meet and acknowledge yourself wherever you're at on your journey and in your relationship to your body. I think that that's huge and a beautiful and powerful place to start from, just where you're at. You know, another thing that I think is really important to acknowledge is that, you know, there's, there's the body in actuality, and then there's what we project onto it and what we make it mean. Just like there's, you know, there's everything in actuality and then there's, there's what we project onto it, make it mean. So, you know, we're talking about the body right now, but the mind is a really powerful, powerful thing. You know, thought is a very powerful, powerful thing, and thoughts become things, as they say. So I think that's important to acknowledge. And the body is, in fact, like a tool. It serves a functional purpose and also a joyful purpose. So, like, my body, for example, my body, you know, I use it for functionality. It helps me move, it helps me survive. It helps me thrive. I use it to eat. I use it to make, I use it to connect. Right? It serves so many purposes, like these nails, for example, that we maybe go and get like manicured, etcetera, right? Yeah, they serve a purpose. Like we can sort of adorn them in color and enjoy them in different ways. And also, like, these are used to eat, to their tools, to like, open things, engage with things, make. Engage with the external world. You know, my flesh is, and bone, you know, is contains my organs, which keep me alive. Like, this is all, this is all functional stuff. And the bonus is we get to, like, enjoy it. You know, it's like I can go get a haircut and make it look a particular way and I can enhance different features if that occurs to me. So I think that's major. The other thing I would say, and this really helped me is to start to pay attention to, and I didn't have the consciousness for this at the time, you know, previous to having it, but what being is your doing happening from? Right. So what state of being? What state of thought? Like, where are you at internally when you are up to what you're up to in relationship to your body. You know? So, like, if I get that, you know, in my. In my brain and in my, you know, in my thinking and my emotions, like, I'm kind of off, right? Odds are anything I'm going to be thinking and saying about my body or other bodies is probably going to reflect that. So it might serve me to maybe just be cautious of what's happening in that moment versus other moments when I'm in my right mind, so to speak. But again, what being is you're doing happening from. Am I exercising because I hate my body? Because I'm comparing my body, the something I saw on tv or in a magazine or someone I saw walking down the street, who has something that I want or think I want? Am I doing it to get this person who I think will want me if I look a certain way or my body reflects something in particular, or am I doing it because. Because, again, I want this thing to function beautifully and effectively because I love it. And because I know that when I'm exercising and moving and breathing and feeding it with, you know, nourishing things, whether it's, like, the information that I take in or the actual food I consume or the exercises and movement I engage in and the environments I put myself in, you know, it's like, am I. Am I doing those things because I love this thing, right? Or is it because I'm seeking some sort of external validation or looking to hide and mask and cover something up? Pay really close attention to that, you know, and start to be compassionately curious. Compassionately curious. You know, not. Not scrutinize, not be unkind, but be compassionate again, just honoring where you're at. It's okay that that's there, that you feel that way about that little extra piece of skin that, you know, some of us got here. I know I got a little bit right here. Right? Or that bald spot that started coming in that's like, oh, no. Okay, that's there. I have feelings about that. Let's. Let's explore that. And then I think that, you know, two more things I would say is like, what would I do if I loved myself? You know, and would I want someone I love to do this to themselves, to speak to themselves this way, to think about themselves this way? Right. Check in with yourself. What would I do if I love myself? And would I want someone I love to do this to themselves? And the last thing I know, it's going on a tangent here, but there's a quote by St. Thomas. I mentioned it on this podcast before. If you bring forth what is within you, what is within you will save you. And if you do not bring forth what is within you, what is within you will destroy you. And so my encouragement is to expose yourself and to bring that shame, that stuff into the light, into conversation. Yeah. Thank you. [00:54:16] Speaker C: Thanks, Rena. Beautifully said. [00:54:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:54:20] Speaker C: For our podcast listeners out there who could not see us, when Rena was referring to the little piece of skin, he was talking about his midsection, not his penis, something like that. For someone who's not watching us, they might think, yeah, like this little extra piece of skin here. I'm like, just. Just for our listeners, just so they know what he's talking about. All right, thanks, guys. So, um, as you. As you were talking, I thought of these right here, so I wrote them down quickly. Um, the first thing is. So the question is, what can we do to overcome body shaming? Uh, the first thing, like Reno has is kind of know your role. You had said it in the meet yourself, where you are. I think my version of that is know that you take, like, take some responsibility for. Right. So how you could do that is know within yourself how you shame your own body. I think that's a good place to start. And then how that might come across with others and how you might be shaming other people's bodies in your own mind, even. Right. And then another way to look at it is looking at what you consume, which I can talk more about in my second point. And then another thing that I just thought of is notice how you want to be perceived. So in my example of, you know, when people are taking pictures at the beach or at the bar and everything, and, like, notice what it is that you want other people to say and think about you when they see your body. That is a really good place to start for some introspection and then going to what you consume. So, this is the point on media literacy. So we talk a lot. We've talked a lot about that today. But I think, like I said, there are people want more body positivity out there, and we're like, yeah, we need that. We want that. But we still promote and consume a lot of unrealistic standards. So those clicks, those likes, even those eyeballs, they matter. That is currency in our culture today. I don't love it, but unfortunately, this is the world we live in. Those clicks are currency. Those eyeballs are currency. So spend it where you want it. Notice that. Notice the words I'm using here and yes. So it's one thing to follow accounts and watch more body diverse porn. Fine. That celebrates diversity inclusivity. Absolutely. But engage with it, follow it, share it, be a little bit more active with it. I think that's a great thing to do. I noticed this as a creator myself. If I put a post together that's all about positivity and all this good stuff, it's okay. But if I put on my half naked body explosion from a consumption and engagement perspective, which is very interesting, I think that it's so much, I put so much more work and effort into creating content where I think about what I'm saying and I'm educating and teaching, which takes a lot more effort than for me just going in the mirror, snapping a photo and uploading it with a filter. So that says a lot about where we are. We have work to do here, guys. [00:57:13] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:57:14] Speaker C: And then another thing on the content in media literacy is just diversifying your consumption. So if you want diverse representation, then diversify your consumption. Porn diversity, I think, is great these days with things like onlyfans and Twitter is, we can, we have a lot more options to us. And I think it's great that people are doing so and so let's support them. Right? And we can normalize it as well. As we consume more and share more, we kind of normalize these different body types, different races, different ages, even, you know, older men, I think, have a lot to say on this. And, you know, they, they also have sex drives and they also are sexual beings and we leave them behind a lot, which is definitely something we need to work on as well. Uh, so, yeah, and be an example, you know, if you are someone who is a bit juicier or a bit scrawnier or a little bit older, or, you know, don't fit the, don't fit the type, and you, you are someone who wants to express themselves, like naturally. That just comes very easily to you. Do it. Do it. Make people uncomfortable. Do it. I'm not saying this works for everybody. Absolutely not. I am one of those people who likes to do that. Um, but if you are and you're thinking, oh, maybe I shouldn't, because I don't fit that mold, do it anyway. And this goes into my last point, which is, if you're going to do that, make sure you have some support around you because it can be very hard. It takes a lot of courage. So surround yourself with people who will support you, will encourage you, who also want the same things, who also kind of have the same standards and who want that body diversity. Who won't body shame you and maybe who don't do that as much or notice it when they do do it. I don't think it's necessarily fair to say no one ever does it because I certainly do sometimes with my own body and others. But where we can talk about it and, like, catch each other and say, hey, notice what you just said there. Notice what you're doing here, right? I think that's really interesting and powerful. So I go to a lot of parties. This is my thing. I like going to parties and dancing, and in those parties, shirts come off. And what I notice is that in some, all these parties are very different. And some of them, it's a very much a younger or very narrow kind of body image, and I don't always fit that. And so I do find myself second guessing it, but I do it anyway. I'm like, fuck it. I don't care. Like, I'll be that guy. And then in other parties, where it's a lot more body diverse, it's. It's. I think it's more fun because there are people that will just rip their shirts off, and they might be 60 years old and they may be a more of a bear type figure or a fuller type figure, and they just love, and they're just having the best time. And I personally like being in those spaces more, but I will have friends who feel the opposite. Oh, I don't want to. I don't want to. I don't want to be around that. Like, that's gross, right? And I'll call them out on it and say, listen, like, that's. That's not fair. Like, notice where this is coming from. He wants to be kind of in these other kind of spaces. So my point here is twofold. One, watch where you're doing that. And two, if you do want to enjoy those spaces and you feel uncomfortable, find places where you can do that where it's a little bit more comfortable and it's okay to do. So, um, it doesn't have to be a party. I'm just saying that's my thing. Like, do. What's your thing? Find it out there and look for these spaces and look for these people. Yeah, I'll leave it there. [01:00:26] Speaker A: Yeah. Great points. Great points. Okay, where do I want to go with this here? What can we do to overcome body shaming? So, self compassion and vulnerability, like I said, off the top, I think, are the pillars, in my opinion, of overcoming body shaming. But we have to look, maybe at. Instead of just being like, okay, I'm going to start being self compassionate and vulnerable. Right? It's like, it's a big jump. So I think the first stop step would be to, like, look at what's the opposite of self compassion? In my opinion, it is self animosity. Right. Judgment of self and having, like, a turbulent relationship with self. What's the opposite of being vulnerable? Probably hiding who we are. So I kind of put down a couple things that we can do to stop shaming, and then I'll talk about some things that we can do to encourage self compassion. So having a relationship with self animosity might look like comparing yourself to other people. And I think it's hard to say to just stop comparing ourselves to others because we live in a culture where that's usually where our reference point comes from. So I think the starting point would be be a mindful or aware of when you're comparing yourself to other people, catch yourself and just say, okay, what am I valuing here? And just start to get like, I love the word you use. Reno is compassionately curious. That's such a great word and a term to use for what I'm describing here. Be compassionately curious with why you are comparing with this specific person in general. What do you value about them? Why do you think what you have doesn't measure up to what you're comparing it to? And just start to get curious about that and then ask yourself, where does that come from? From why do I value whatever white skin over dark skin or whatever, just start to question yourself and say, where does this come from? Did I subscribe to a belief that no longer works for me? Can I unsubscribe from that? Right. And do that work on deconditioning or reprogramming, which is very possible, right? It's very possible to do subconscious reprogramming work. And then the other one that I had here was stop trying to pull people down into the crab bucket it. And instead use that energy to pull yourself out. Because a lot of people that are feeling shame, they want to pull people into their misery, right? Misery loves company. So that takes a lot of fucking energy to be pulling people down into the crab bucket and constantly be trolling people on Instagram and YouTube and these sorts of things and trying to pull people down. It's like, can you use that energy to pull yourself up? Right? So you can join these people? Because the people you're trying to pull down, trust me, they ain't coming down in the crab bucket again, and they've already tasted what it feels like to be out of the crab bucket. They're not coming back in. So you can try and pull them in, but all you're doing is wasting your own energy, right? So use that energy to do some. Some work on yourself, to get yourself to a place where. Where you don't need to pull people in. And then I just put, shaming others keeps us all small, including ourselves. Right? So when we are shaming people, it's coming from the shame within us. So we're perpetuating the shame within us when we're shaming others, you know, everything we give comes back to us ten times. So when we shame people, it comes back to us. Got to keep that in mind. And then. So I was starting. This was maybe, I don't know, a couple months ago, I was thinking, because this is such a big issue for my clients, so many people struggle with body image, and I'm trying to, like, channel. I'm, like, channeling higher wisdom than my own. Like, how can I serve these people? What. What's the wisdom that they need to come? And this came through in the shower. It always comes in the shower. The best wisdom comes in the shower. But so. And I wrote it down. I grabbed my phone quickly, and I wrote it down, and I wrote, in order to love your body, you need to let go of the reference points that you use to determine how you feel about your body. Start thinking more about your body in isolation of other bodies that you may be using to discern worth or value from. That's, I think, what we need to do. That's the work. Right? And it comes back to the whole thing about comparing yourself. Right? So not using reference points when we think about our own body. Right. When you stare at yourself in the mirror, what is that mental reference point that you're using to say, I'm not good enough. I'm to this enough. I'm not this enough, whatever that is. Get really clear about what that is and start to start to let that go. Let it go. Let go of that reference point. Because that's the thing that's likely causing the dissonance, the self animosity. It's coming from that reference point, right? At least from my perspective. Um, and then I just wrote down, your body is unique and special to you. No one else has your body, and no one else ever will have your body ever in this lifetime. Your fingerprint, it's the same thing. No one else in this life will ever have your fingerprint it's unique to you, right? So is your penis. So is your smile. So is all these things. It's so unique to you. And I just think it's. That's beauty, right? That is compassion for self is saying, wow, my body's amazing. No one else has this body. This is unique to me, right? And then the last thing I'll say, you know, is. Is evidence. Look for evidence of the opposing belief. I've been doing a lot of this work around subconscious reprogramming. Find the belief. Find the thing that's getting in the way. I'm not good enough. I'm unworthy. I'm not lovable. Find the core belief, the self limiting belief that you keep coming back to. For a lot of us, it's I'm not good enough stuff and find the opposing belief. So for me, I use. I measure up and have a lot to offer. That's how I oppose. I'm not good enough. I measure up and have a lot to offer. And then I write that down and I start looking for evidence in my life of where I measure up and have a lot to offer and just start there. Start reprogramming some of this stuff. Because if the default mechanism is to always go towards I'm not good enough, and then you look for evidence in your environment, in your body, of how you're not good enough, you'll find it. Right. And then that reinforces the belief. So look for evidence of a new belief that you want to create for yourself. That's, like, the best advice that I can give. And it's, you know, there's a little bit more to it, but that's a great place to start, is doing that. It's basically self limiting. Core belief reprogramming is the work. So anything you guys want to add before we wrap up? Pop. [01:06:55] Speaker C: I'm good. Yeah. [01:06:57] Speaker A: Wow. [01:06:58] Speaker C: Great way to end it. [01:07:00] Speaker A: Okay, well, once beaver, otter, muskrat. That's our secret word for timing. Just so everybody knows we're at time is what we're saying. So, yes, thank you guys for your. For your wisdom and for your vulnerability. This was a really beautiful episode. I loved hearing your guys stories and your vulnerabilities and your insecurities and how you've risen to the occasion around them. So thank you. And we want to hear from you guys. So please come to our Zoom hangout. Last Thursday of every month, there's one in the morning in eastern time zone and one in the evening for Pacific time zone. So come and join us if you have not already joined the Gaiman's Brotherhood Facebook group. We would love to have you in there and continue the conversation in there, in the chats. And if you're listening on YouTube, drop some comments. We would love to hear maybe how you have overcome body shame or how you see body shame showing up in yourself or in the community. And if you're listening on your favorite podcast, platform, platform, please give us a star rating, preferably five stars, if you enjoyed what you heard today. Because like we always say, it gets us into the ears of people that need to hear this. This is a really important episode, and it could really help somebody. So please share it with somebody that you love and care about. And for any other of our resources, different courses, events, things like that, check us out at gay mensbrotherhood.com. all right, much love, everybody.