Let’s Play! When Did Life Stop Being Fun?

[00:00:05] Speaker A: Welcome to Gaiman Going Deeper, a podcast by the Gaiman's Brotherhood that showcases raw and real conversations about personal development, mental health, and sexuality from an unapologetically gay perspective. I am your host, Matt Lansdal, and joining me today are Michael Diorio and Reno Johnston. Hey, boys. Okay, today we're talking about play. So the title of this episode is let's Play The Healing Power of Play. [00:00:33] Speaker B: Something about it. [00:00:35] Speaker A: When you say let's play, it's like we're inviting in this, like, really fun energy. So, yeah, we're gonna be unpacking a couple questions. So how did you play as a child? I'm really curious. I want to learn about your guys's little, little boys, little inner children. How has your relationship to play changed as you've gotten older? And what are ways that you play now? So how do you play? So it's all about play. Yeah. The inspiration of this topic was I'm trying to bring more play into my life. I have a puppy. He's almost not a puppy anymore, but he's about nine months, and I play a lot with him, and I see him play, and there's just something about play that is very healing and very therapeutic. And I think a lot of us lose touch to this part of ourselves as we get older. And I want to know why. And I want to inspire the audience to play more. Yeah. As a way to release tension and find more ease and calm and fun in your life. All right, if you're new here, please subscribe to the channel on YouTube. And if you're listening on your favorite podcast platform, please subscribe. Leave us a review which helps us get into the ears of the people who need us. This podcast and YouTube channel are listener and viewer supported. If you enjoy what we're creating, you can support the community by making a donation to the show, using the link in the show notes or tapping the thanks button on YouTube. And we also have early access option on Apple Podcast where you can get early access to episodes and all of these things support us and the community. We can continue making content for you. We do. Thank you in advance for your support. All right. I was kind of pondering to myself, I'm like, why do we stop playing as we get older? Right. And a lot of us, it's like the play is. You know, we wait till Friday. Friday is like this time, and then we drink, and that's our way to play. And we. Right. But we've lost. I think a lot of us have lost contact to the part of Ourselves, that inner child part, the really playful, silly, you know, and it started to make me think. I'm like, I actually think shame is the culprit, as it always is on this podcast. We talk about shame a lot here, but it is really such a big one because if you think about what play does is it's inhibited. It makes us silly and goofy and we may appear immature or irresponsible. And I use air quotes with those two words when we're playing, right? And I think a lot of us are afraid of looking that way. We're afraid of looking silly or for gay men or men in general, we're afraid of looking flamboyant or goofy, these sorts of things. So. And I just know for myself in the last, you know, eight months, nine months of having a puppy and being very playful, and I spend most of my time with him, right? He's like my, basically my best bud. And I just see how playful he is and how he. I follow kind of what he does. He. He sighs a lot. He, you know, runs a lot. He has big movements and he's just following his instincts and he's never stressed out. He's always just chill. And so it made me think. I'm like, you know, movement is such a big part of, of play, and movement is a great way to reset our nervous systems. And I think as gay men, I think we have grown up in a society and in a. In a culture where our nervous system hyper vigilant and we spend a lot of time in fight or flight because we're. We have to be very aware of who's around us and who likes us and who doesn't like us. And we are, a lot of us are really hypersensitive to rejection and these sorts of things. So that means our nervous system is always like, sitting outside of our window of tolerance. Play is a very, very great way to get our nervous systems in a reset mode so we can come closer to what I, what I look at as the, you know, the, Our. Our innate state of being is ease, just to be in ease. Right? And I think play brings us closer to ease. So I wanted to. To have this conversation with you guys. Yeah. So the first question is, how did you play as a child? So I'm curious. Let's start with Michael today. [00:04:26] Speaker C: All right. [00:04:26] Speaker A: I want to learn about your, your playfulness. [00:04:28] Speaker C: Yeah, what a, What a great question to bring down memory lane. And I think all the audience should be asking this themselves the same question as we answer this. So the first Thing that came to mind for me and my parents will always. And my sister and brother will always say this. I. I loved playing with my LEGO set and I had like 20 of them. It seems like I just would just build these cities and civilizations and whatnot. Okay. And that's really important. I really liked playing alone. And to me, that was playing. Now when you talked about movement, I was just thinking at school. That's not what I did at school. We played tag and I love that. I loved, you know, running and chasing and all that kind of stuff. That was really fun for me. I was never much of a sports guy. I know. Matt, you play hockey. I was just. I tried. My parents tried literally everything. It just wouldn't take. I'm not, I'm not. Wasn't that kind of a kid. But yeah, I would say early on, definitely my LEGO set. And actually, similarly, when I was at the beach, which I still love to this day, love going to the beach. But when I was a kid and my parents would take me to the beach, I would again, like, other kids would like, make a sandcastle or two and then like, fuck off and call it a day and like, go play in the ocean. I would spend hours again making like, civilizations and like zoning. This is where the people live and this is where the. The princes. And this is where the king is. And here's the irrigation system and here's the defense wall and like this very elaborate setup, which is very me, actually. Fun fact. I wanted to go into architecture when I was a kid and then urban design as I got older. I thought that was really interesting. I still do. I'm a big urban nerd when I'm not kind of doing what I do here, anywho. So that kind of thing, like, mental stimulation was really my sense of play. Like creating these. These worlds was really fun for me. And then in a physical aspect, I guess it was just more so things like, you know, I don't know, playing tag and that. Not. Not really a sports play kind of guy. And then as I got older, I guess physically biking, which I again, still do to this day, I haven't changed very much. Once I learned how to ride a bike, you can get me off the thing. And I still am very much similarly to that. So I'd run around the neighborhood or bike around the neighborhood, rather explore, go places. My parents, luckily this was like the early 90s, you know, they didn't. They weren't too concerned about safety and whatnot, or they just really trusted me and we lived In a good neighborhood, I'm not sure. But I was allowed to pretty much go wherever I want on my bike, and I did. They didn't know much, so. Yeah. And I still like that. I still think play to me is exploring. It's freedom. It's pointless. It's just like organic. Like I'm gonna just start something and go, like, just let it go. And I get very lost in it. If it's something individual, like a Lego or sand castles and whatnot, in those days, I would just get focused and lost. And it's kind of more like a creative play than anything than physical. [00:07:14] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. What is it about playing solo that was appealing for you back then? [00:07:20] Speaker C: I was scared of other people. And also, like, if it's something like. Like I remember my. My LEGO set of my sand castles. I remember having the vision, like, no, no, this is my vision. Like, this is not. This is not a negotiation. Maybe I wasn't so good to play with, but yeah, that part for sure. And I think a lot of the other boys really liked sports and rough. Rough being rough and like, yeah. Rough housing and being just. I'm like, oh, I'm not. That's like, I'm, I'm, I'm gentle. I'm a sweet boy. And, you know, I think, to answer your question earlier, about. About where, where does that stop? I think for me, I didn't know it at the time. I obviously didn't know I was gay that early on, but I knew it was different and I knew that I was. I would get made fun of or teased, maybe not bullied, but certainly made fun of and teased for being. For not being good at that or not wanting that. And people punching me and laughing and I'm like, don't punch me. It hurts. And I just didn't want to be part of that. So I was like, fuck all y'. All. I didn't say that in my, you know, five year old self, but. And I just withdrew and I'm like, okay, well, I'm just gonna go over here and do my thing with my Lego set and book and leave me alone, please. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:08:39] Speaker A: It sounds like play is. Was like an entertaining entertainment for you, but also like a soothe. You would use play as a way to soothe your nervous system when you felt like, fear or you felt. [00:08:50] Speaker C: And I hated it in gym class or school or my parents would force me, like, no, play this way. Go do this with these people. I was like, I don't want to. That's not fun for me. Like, it was really. It really. Like I felt very self conscious and I felt afraid and I felt shy, and it just did a lot of damage. I'm sure they didn't know this at the time, but it did a lot of damage to my psyche because it showed me, like it said, without saying, you need to be different than you are. And I think that was. I think a lot of gay kids kind of get that messaging early on in life. And then you become very self conscious. And when you become self conscious, you start monitoring yourself. And when you're monitoring yourself, then we're hyper vigilant. And as soon as that shows up, the play disappears all of a sudden. You know, we can't be playful if we're always monitoring ourselves and being hypervigilant. Vigilant about how we act, what we say, and who we're doing it with. [00:09:40] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Or playing in ways that are socially appropriate. I use air quotes because it's like, oh, you're playing like a girl. You shouldn't play with Barbies. Or you shouldn't play with these things, right? It's like play is. Is something that should be universal to whatever desire wants to bring to it. And I think so, yeah. [00:09:58] Speaker C: And I was kind of scared of the other boys. They were very intimidating to me, so I didn't want to play with them. [00:10:03] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:10:05] Speaker B: It's funny how they make that difficult for us because I would see them doing some of that stuff. Like, what's interesting about me is, like, I always felt like a, like a girl on the inside, but who's like a tomboy too, because it's like, I liked playing with dolls, right? But then, like, I'll get dirty. Like, we'll ride bikes, we'll like, wait in ditches, catch frogs, climb trees. Like, I wouldn't say that I was afraid to wrestle or fight, you know, like that, that. That didn't really scare me so much. The thing that scared me more than anything was that when I was in play or if I was engaging with the other boys in, in. In some of those spaces that, like, I would be outed if I appeared to. To be femme in. In those environments, right? So looking back, I was like, oh, I definitely would have played ball, right? Or I probably would have had more fun playing soccer, or I probably would have wrestled, more or less, know. But like, all that stuff that, you know, boys typically do, like, I was actually into all of that, but I was also into the girls stuff too, like makeup, you know, clothing, Barbies. Like, I had an easy Bake oven. When I was a kid, you know, I remember one time I invited my friend over and his mom, we went back to his place after, and his mom was like, like, what? Where were you guys? Or something like that. I think it was. He's like, I was at Reno's, like, playing with the Easy Bake Oven. And she was like. She was like, is it that thing for girls? And I was like. And I remember in the back of my mind, I was probably like, excuse me, like 10 or 12. I was like, fuck you, Tracy. Who cares? You know, what human being doesn't want brownies and doesn't want, like, instant access to their own brownies in their, like, bedroom, you know? So anyway, it's just like, stuff like that I was really into. But I would say, like, I was probably one of the most playful on the block when I was young, for sure. Like, I would get up and I'd, like, go knock on everyone's doors, and I'd round up my friends. Like, I was the ringleader all the time. And we'd, like, get on our bikes or on foot, and we go and just, like, roam the neighborhood. And I was always the one who was like, hey, we should cross the tracks, or, like, we should cross the busy street, or we should check out this abandoned house, right? So it was like, anywhere you weren't supposed to go. I was like, let's go there. So for me, Jeff, is play to. To. To this day, even. Yeah. Mischief. Oh, my God. Mischief. Curiosity, Wonder. Yeah. I like to call it good trouble is what I call it. I call it good trouble. Yeah, I mentioned dolls. I mean, I loved dress up. And performing as well, was so much fun. Like, I loved putting on music and putting on performances in the living room or even, like, outside publicly. And there was this. I found a way to kind of merge all of these. One time I have this. This really fun memory of being a kid. And I set up a car wash. So we have these big pieces of, like, do hot paper with a sign on it. And then I ran the hose out to the. The. The curbside. And I had some of my friends and brothers with me. And I remember I dressed up in drag to, like, stop traffic. I would, like, take my wig off and, like, roll it around my head. And then, you know, people got a kick out of it and they'd pull over and then we'd, like, wash their cars and make money. So it was like the enterprising part of me, the performing part of me, you know, the ringleader in Me, the creative in me, like all these different parts of me got to like live in that one moment, you know? So, yeah, those are. Those are some. And then I was a gamer. Like, I loved playing video games. I would game all weekend because we had class. So I rent the game on Friday and then I would just pull all nighters all weekend and, and try to beat it before Monday. And sometimes if Monday rolled around and I was still trying to beat it, I would pretend I was sick and I got away with it like a few times. And then my mom was like, oh, if you're sick, I guess you can't play video games, right? I was like, I'm caught. But yeah, yeah, those are, those are some of the ways, some of the ways I played. Yeah. [00:15:20] Speaker A: What would you say you get out of play? [00:15:23] Speaker B: God, everything. Everything. It's so interesting. I know we have some other questions we're going to answer later on, but like, and maybe some of this will, will come up there too. I think that I am at my best when I am in the frequency of play, you know? Definitely, like, definitely. I'm clear, I'm curious, I'm open, I'm present. But I'm also aware there's spaciousness for my mind, my imagination, and my senses to wonder and wander. Yeah, it's like I'm at my best, you know, There's a. There's a movie and it's called like Guardians. It's not Guardians of the Galaxy, it's something else. But anyway, there's like Santa Claus and Jack Frost and like the Easter bun, like all these, like, characters, these archetypes. And one of the characters, Jack Frost, each of them has a core. Like Santa's is joy or wonder. Santa's is wonder, I think. But Jack Frost's core is fun. And there's a scene where like Jack Frost dies saving his little sister when he's young. And that's how he becomes Jack Frost. And they're on the ice and the ice starts to crack. And so Jack Frost encourages his sister to enter like a playful mode, to be able to get off the ice while it's cracking. And so that's how he saves her. He dies, but he becomes Jack Frost. And so referencing this because play can save your life and not just in a detrimental situation such as that, but across the board. Like, I think it's one of the highest frequencies and ways to approach life and difficult situations, challenging situations. You tap into the frequency of play and magic happens, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:17:26] Speaker A: It's too bad that we lose that, as, you know, I think when we start moving into our teenage years and we start to develop that part of ourselves, I call it like being domesticated. And we start self monitoring and we start, you know, worrying about what our peers think about us and, you know, all that stuff. Basically the puberty stage, when we're all feeling insecure and self conscious, and I think play really starts to decline. [00:17:52] Speaker B: It's like, cool will kill you. You know, in high school, like, we're, you know, like, suddenly it's all about being cool. And it's like, cool will kill you. Cool's not. Cool's not that interesting. It really isn't. And it will. It's a. It's a slow death. It's a slow death. Yeah, I agree. [00:18:10] Speaker A: It's a suffocation of our authenticity for perception. [00:18:14] Speaker B: What about you, Matt? [00:18:16] Speaker A: Gosh, our childhood Reno was so similar. It's crazy. Like, almost everything you said, I was like, yes, yes, yes. I feel very fortunate that I grew up in a home where I was able to be my two sides. Like, I have a very connection to my feminine. I have a connection to my masculine. Like, I grew up playing sports. I was very athletic, these sort of things. But I also had the other side, which was I would, like, dress up as a girl, and I would, you know, play house with my sister and her friends. And, like, I was very much in that realm as well. And my dad never shamed me, or at least I never picked up any of that sort of stuff. I felt pretty lucky that way, so. And then I just loved, like, I loved entertaining. So I would, like, put on little shows every night with my mom and my sister. They'd be my audience, and I would just make them laugh. I would dress up like Steve Urkel and, like, put, like, my whitey tighty whities on and pull them up. And then I'd wear my mom's really thick, like, glasses and just dance and stuff. So, yeah, there was that for sure. That entertainer in me that loved, I guess just making people laugh maybe is what it was. I. I think I like to, like, get a rise out of people and. And then I used to collect rocks, and I still do. So I'd go in and when I was a kid, I would try and find the smoothest rocks. And then now as an adult, I find, like, heart rocks and different things like that. But I don't know why. I've always just kind of had a thing for rocks. And we had a rock polisher when I was a Kid. And we would collect rocks and then we'd put them in this rock polisher. And it'd have to stay in there for three days and like, tumbling. And I was like, oh, my God. Because then they'd come out. They'd be all glossy and shiny. But it felt like forever. Three days felt like forever. [00:19:48] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:19:48] Speaker A: I'm trying to think of other things that you had said, Reno, because it was pretty much spot on. Oh, video games. Yeah, I used to play video games a lot. Like Super Mario and all that. I just was, like, addicted. I played so much. Um, and then, yeah, street hockey. That's some of my fondest memories as a kid. I used to love playing street hockey and be out there. And I was. I was like, always on the move. That was the thing as a child. Like, I think that's like how I got through my childhood was just movement and my body was always moving. And, you know, if I'd feel upset, I would move. If I was angry, I would move. Energy. It was all just about movement and. And like adventure. So going exploring and. Yeah, it's interesting to think of all these things because it's like, it's such a free time in our lives. You know what I mean? Like, we're just so, like, our imaginations are just running wild and we're. Fun is freedom. Yeah, it's. It's really cool. [00:20:44] Speaker C: I think imagination can still run. Well, we'll get to this in the next question. Imagination can still run wild. It's just that we put a lid on it, unfortunately. [00:20:53] Speaker A: I know. [00:20:53] Speaker B: I like that phrase, we put a lid on it. Yeah, but it's there. I think we all have hear that sometimes, like, you know, people say, put a lid on it. Put a little lid on it. As if that's a good thing. [00:21:04] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:21:05] Speaker B: There. There were two things I wanted to say. Were you. Did you want to say something more, Matt? [00:21:09] Speaker A: No, I was going to move on to question two, but if you have something. [00:21:11] Speaker B: Just two things. One, it can be so vulnerable. Like, I'm noticing. I'm noticing it can be so vulnerable to go to a place of play and to talk about what you used to do when you did play. Like, I noticed it kind of requires a bit of vulnerability, I think, to enter this reflective space where you're reminiscing on how you used to play. And. And, you know, what is playful to you. Even just being in play can be kind of vulnerable in a way because you're really open, you know? [00:21:43] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:21:45] Speaker B: And the other thing I forgot to Mention. And I feel like I really want to, because I think there's a lot of shame around. This is like. Like pleasure play. Like, I used to explore my sexuality as well and my sensuality, you know, And I'd be remiss if I didn't name that, because I think that there's so much shame around that when you're younger and that sort of exploration and play. And I was all up in it, you know, so. [00:22:14] Speaker A: Yeah, you were three years old and all up in it. [00:22:17] Speaker B: I was all up in it at three. Yeah. Yeah. [00:22:20] Speaker A: Did you guys ever play red rover? I'm trying to think of childhood games that I used to play. Yes. [00:22:24] Speaker B: Oh, my God. [00:22:25] Speaker A: Is that where you lock arms and then red rover, red rover. I call Michael over, and then Michael would have to run over and try and break through the people's arms. Yeah. [00:22:33] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:22:33] Speaker A: That was so fun. They're skipping. I used to love skipping. And, like, double Dutch and like, for [00:22:40] Speaker C: us it was tag, frozen tag and just tag. We'd have, like, or, like, manhunt, I believe was one of the one things that I enjoyed. [00:22:47] Speaker B: Do you guys remember grounders, too, where you had, like, the climber and someone was on the ground and you had to, like, you had to get around and they try to fight, they try to. They try to tag you, but you couldn't touch the ground or something like that? Yeah, yeah. [00:23:01] Speaker C: This must be some Western Canada stuff we didn't have here. [00:23:05] Speaker A: And kick the can. I don't know if you guys ever remember so many. So many games, you know, And I'm trying to actually, in my life currently, like, trying to organize and bring guys together. Like, especially groups of gay men together in Calgary and, like, do things like bowling and battle, axe throwing and just different things like that so you can get out and start playing. I just think play is such a beautiful way of bonding. [00:23:26] Speaker B: Yeah. I love this conversation so much. [00:23:29] Speaker A: Yeah, let's. Let's explore kind of what you were saying, Michael, about, you know, put a lid on it. Like, I'm just curious, like, how has. Has your relationship to play changed as you've gotten older? [00:23:41] Speaker C: Yeah, I think for a lot of us, the same thing kind of happens. Like, you're like, the childhood is a socially acceptable time to play. Like, okay, yeah, that's the time you do this between these ages. But somewhere along the way, we're socialized to, like, okay, grow up. Right? I don't. Whatever age that might be teenage years or whatever. And then, like, okay, you know, like you said, you have to Sort of go into high school, at least for me, and things had to be cool. All of a sudden, like, all of the natural playfulness within me was like, shut down, even though it was there. But it's like, okay, no, now it's time to be cool. Now I gotta act like this and I gotta be like this and, and you gotta kind of match the. I don't know who comes up with this stuff, but just the socialization of your school and the class and the way that boys should behave. And then from there you go into university. I'll speak for me, I went into university and, you know, it's, it's a studious time. I wanted to do well. Then I got into the working world right away. And just like life, life's right. You gotta do this, you gotta do this, you gotta get a degree, you gotta get a job. And for a long time I lost play completely, especially when I was working in, in wealth management here in Toronto. Thirteen years in that nine to five world, corporate world. And I think it's very common. And I saw that a lot with all the people that I worked with. And even today I still live downtown. It's very much a big city thing. I think, just as like, everything is really about productivity and achievement and always got your eye on the next thing. And like, there's no play in that at all. It's the opposite of play. It's very driven, very direct, very productive. And it was a recipe for my burnout and for a lot of people's burnout. It was my. How I got to burnout is getting stuck on some hamster wheel of achievement and doing and productivity. When play, if you ask me then about play or joy, and I put those two words kind of in the. I put play under joy. They're like, oh, that's, that's, that's for, like, yeah, that's for Friday. Or that's for when I'm on vacation, when in fact now I have learned that that is not something that you put on the back burner for vacation or if, if you have time, which most people who are high achievers never have time. But I now see it as maintenance. It's, it's energizing. It's how I stay connected to my life force. Like, I wake up most days and I'm pretty happy to be here. And I remember waking up most days in my 9 to 5 job and dreading it. And my first thought was, oh, what I have to do today and what, what meeting do I have? And like, it's just do, do. Whereas now, I mean, it's not every day, but now, most days I wake up, I'm like, cool, let's, let's do this. Let's, let's, let's get this day. So a lot of people do treat play like I used to, a reward after the work is done or only if I have time, which for most people, they're not going to find the time in today's. Whereas I now treat it like fuel. And so the question was, how has it changed? And it's like a complete 180 in one. It was dismissed, not important. Now it is literally a fuel for me. And if, if you're listening to this and your life has no room or you have no time to play, it is only a matter of time before you end up in burnout. Like I did. [00:26:44] Speaker A: Exactly. Or depression or like, play is not a luxury, folks. It's actually a necessity. Yeah. It's so important for our nervous systems. [00:26:53] Speaker C: Yeah. And for people who like this podcast, this is about personal development. I mean, I'm a coach, like in, in this world as well. It's shocking to me how much we spend coaching and talking about skills like discipline and productivity and all these things which, yes, absolutely, obviously, yes. But also, especially in this world, I think we need to. It is very hustle y, which is fine. But very few people intentionally develop play and joy as equally important skills as hustle, discipline and those other things that we coach on so often we see out there in that world. And so the way I see it, these aren't things that just kind of happen randomly like, oh, I had fun today, what a random. What a random thing that happened to me because I'm lucky. They're actually fundamental life skills for having a fulfilling life. And I have a review that I have on my website, the 360 degree review, self review for gay men that kind of asks you questions over 10 different life skills. Guess what? One of those life skills is as a fundamental one. Play. And under joy goes play. Right. And it is. I will stand behind this. It is absolutely fundamental. The way that joy often shows up in life is through play. The things that we're talking about just being loose and letting go and being light hearted and putting down that guard and just doing things because it's pointless and fun because you want to. And I think it's a skill that a lot of people don't see as a skill, first of all. They just see it as this thing that maybe happens once in a while. And when you look at it as a skill, you realize that it is actually something that is truly important. Reno had said in the Jack Frost example that play can save your life. I completely agree with that. I call it joy. And for so many men, I'm coming out. For the men, especially gay men and straight men, play is contracted or joy is contracted. Life is very serious for these guys. Life feels very heavy, very effortful. There's that dread. A lot of these guys are very successful on paper, right. Very high achieving men. But when you look deeper, they have all the things and they're not enjoying their lives. I know a lot of guys who fall into this category. Yeah, it's like, okay, I was in this category. Okay, I got the job, I got the condo, I bought this, I bought that, I had the boyfriend, I went on the vacations. But like, was I happy? Was I enjoying these things really fully playing? No, it wasn't. I was just with my eye on the next thing. So we need to find more balance. And I think that's been my personal trajectory is, is finding more balance. Laugh, light heartedness, trying new things, curiosity. All the words that we've been using. Wonder. I love that one, Reno. For me it makes me feel alive and that it's what connects me to my aliveness. So, you know, when I'm not on this earth anymore, wherever my energy is here, looking down at the earthly folks who are still here, I will probably miss play the most. And food, insects, I'll probably mess those things the most because that's, that's, that's why we're here. I love waking up and feeling that sense of, yeah, let's, like life is good and life can only be good when you take a little bit of that seriousness away. [00:29:57] Speaker A: Yeah, I love that, I love that it is a, a play on your, on the nervous system. I really do believe that, you know, a lot of people that are high achievers and these sorts of things, they actually don't have a very good relationship with their nervous system. And they're just driving through, they're pushing through, they're, they're in one of the four Fs, right. Of fight, flight, freeze or Fawn. Whereas when you're in play, you're not in any of those four F's, you're, you're in ease. And you're presence. [00:30:22] Speaker C: And presence. Yeah. And you know, a great thing. It's also a cultural thing. Right. Like, I know I picked on men, but just in the world we live in, in North America has really really emphasized doing more, having more. It's just more. It's this capitalist, colonialist more, more, more, more, more culture that I think has its benefits, but it also can be taken too far. And I think for a lot of folks out there, I mean, look at, look at burnout rates in the US and Canada versus Europe or Japan or other countries, it's shockingly different. And that's. [00:30:59] Speaker A: Yeah, it's crazy. Cray cray. What about you, Reno? [00:31:02] Speaker B: Yeah, like, I'm, I'm still, I would say, like, I'm still a playful person, but I definitely, as we're having this conversation, something that I'm noticing is that I have kind of become a bit like, a bit more rigid maybe. Like I can. It's been interesting to have this conversation and to notice my body, how I'm feeling in my body, and this awareness of the different areas of my body and the different areas of my life where rigidity live and where I can welcome in more play and more spaciousness. And so even as we're speaking, I'm like, how exciting to be having this conversation and to perhaps reflect on it once it's over and look at where I can create more opening and more spaciousness outside this conversation. I mean, I still, like I said, I still play, but not nearly as much as I used to. And I think part of it is that, yeah, life creeps in. And I, I don't even want to say life. I want to say, say conventional life, traditional life creeps in. Right? And so does insecurity and the mind and thinking and conditioning, all of that stuff. And so my journey has been one of unfucking myself, so to speak. So, yeah, yeah. And it's a, it's a daily practice because as we know, the opportunity to be rigid and non playful and serious and, you know, stiff. Gosh, it creeps in every single day. It's a practice to stay in play. Wonder, curiosity, viciousness. [00:32:48] Speaker A: Yeah, I wonder why we lose, like, why we lose it though. Like, if you think about, like, what are, what are specific things of why we lose it? Is it because we, well, get more responsibility or. [00:32:58] Speaker B: That's a huge part of it, like, if you think about it. Right, okay, so we go from, we go from being ideally protected, provided for. Right. Like, I almost want to say, yeah, it's like what creeps in in some ways is what we call adulthood, if you will, or growing up. But it's like, we're protected, we're provided for, we have space, we have like, there's so much There that I think cultivates the space for us to be able to do that. So. [00:33:32] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I agree. I think it's our, our job when we're adolescent to play. Like that's what we're here to do. And then we go into school and we play in school. But then we also have time to be serious. Right. You think about like school time. You have recess. Recess is your time to play. You go out and you. Everybody's all buck wild and crazy and then they reset their nervous systems a bit and then they go back in and they're encouraged to like sit in their desks and learn and be stuck still. [00:34:00] Speaker C: Right. [00:34:01] Speaker A: It's like that. I think that's when it starts. It's like we can't play all the time. We have to start, right? And then you go into higher grades and it's like, well, there's no more recess. So it's like we, it's almost like play starts to become something that is a luxury. Right. And we only do it on the weekends, but during the week we have to be serious and do these things and. [00:34:20] Speaker C: Yeah, and look at your family dynamic too, right. I came from a immigrant working class family and play was not something that responsible good men did. We good people worked. And on the weekends you did your chores, you take care of the house and you can find time for joy in social socialization with your family. But play was just, oh, that's for, that's for, you know, hedonistic folks over there. You know, us good working folk, we don't do that. We work and we take care of the house and we do these things. So it is a socialization as well culturally and in your family. [00:34:58] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I agree. I agree. And which would be lead into. My answer is just, it's just self concept stuff around like being serious and having to be. I don't know where somewhere along the line I got. I picked up some sort of belief that play makes me look irresponsible or immature or something like that. And I have this archetype or something that I've had to kind of play out even in my childhood, like throughout with my family too. It's like I have to be the one that has it together, together or something. I don't know. Yeah. And so I've really let go of this over the last little bit. I've been really challenging this and looking for ways to invite more play into my life and. Yeah, but I think you guys answered this question pretty, pretty, pretty well. I would just agree With. With what you had said, for me, it's just declined. And I've. I want to make a more conscious effort to be more playful. Yeah. And I think for me, a part of it is a fear of judgment. [00:35:56] Speaker C: I think. [00:35:56] Speaker A: I think that's what comes up for me, actually, when I. When I. When I peel all the onion layers back, it's like, you know, if I'm too silly or. Yeah. Because even with playfulness, it's like, I love being playful. It's such a. It's like what you said, Reno. Like, it's. When I'm at my best is when I'm playful, even in sex. Like, the best sex I have is when I'm playful in it. And it's just. I feel so loose. Right. There's no performance, there's no anything. It's just purely fun and play. It's. It's where I'm at my best. So I think as I continue to develop tolerance to judgment, other people's judgment, and just letting go of what people think about me, then it makes it easier for me to connect back into play and presence, which go hand in hand for me. All right, well, I'd love to hear from the audience. Like, what's this conversation bringing up for you guys so far? I'd be curious, you know, how do you play? How does it show up in your life? And how has things changed over the years as you've gotten older? Do you play? Do you not play? What does play bring up for you? Drop some comments in the. In YouTube so we can hear all about your experience. Okay, last question. What are the ways that you play now? Michael. [00:37:05] Speaker C: Yay. First of all, I will say as well that going from that burnout, now you guys know this. A lot of my clients know this too. I'm fiercely protective of my boundaries around my playtime, and I don't. I very rarely get to the point where I'm burnt out. So to that end, how do I. What was the question? How do I. [00:37:27] Speaker A: What are the ways that you play? [00:37:28] Speaker C: Yeah. Okay, so there's a few things. One in the everyday ways, like things that require no money or anything at all, I find those. Those times just easy. Like singing and dancing by myself to my favorite songs, walking down the street, singing even though I have terrible pitch tone. All of the above. I totally tone deaf. I don't give a shit. I love singing, so I'll do that. I'll dance in my house. You know, that's. That's the easy ways. I still love biking. I Still love going to the beach. I still love exploring, you know, when we're, when we're not here and I'm not doing this and I have an open day, I wake up and I have nothing on my schedule, which are my favorite days, and it's the summer, I'll be like, I'm definitely going to go on a bike ride. I'm going to grab my backpack with my book, water bottle, maybe a snack, and just get on my bike and go. I don't know where, but it's just like I was when I was a kid. Same thing. Except for instead of having a little neighborhood to, to, to go around, I have an entire city and I can bike for a long time far away. So that's, that's one of the easiest ways I'll do it. What other ways do I like to play with my friends? Laughing, letting loose. I'm. I'm very lucky that I have a group of friends that can let me be me. Do you guys hear that speaker? No, hold on. I'm just having a fire alarm situation. Give me one second. Okay, it's done. It's done. It's good. Okay. Yeah. With my friends. Yeah. I'm very lucky that I have a group of friends that I can be me with. And I think when you're playing with people, it's fundamental that you have people that you can really just be yourself with. Because as soon as you're starting to feel self conscious and as soon as you're starting to feel like, oh, I shouldn't do that, or I look stupid or I look silly, like, as soon as you get into that, you're, you're, you're not playing anymore. And I get it, though. Like, I get it. Like, we play games, we love board games. And if there's a game, I don't know, or we try something that I'm not good at, I suck. But, like, you have to be around people that you can look silly with and you can totally be shit at something with, and that's funny. And if you can laugh in life, you can laugh at yourself. And if you can laugh at yourself, I think that is another beautiful skill to have. Just really learning to, like, lighten up a little bit. We take ourselves and our lives so, so seriously most of the time. And I get it, life is serious. But when you can have people who bring that out in you and feel safe with, it's so nice to just be like, yeah, let yourself laugh at each other in a good, hearty way. Yeah, I think I'm gonna shout out to all my friends out there who have a very dark sense of humor. Don't always get me. I have a very specific, dark sense of humor, and it's not for everybody. So it's great when you can find your tribe. I wanna, I wanna give them a shout out and at a bigger level when it comes to play. For me, again, travel, I know that it's not accessible for everyone. It does cost a lot of money and take time. Luckily, I have created a life that I can do that. And one thing travel gives me every time I go away is in Italy, they have la dolce vita. In European countries, they have joie de vivre. And what I love in Mexico is just there, they have similar things. But what I was saying about US and Canada and that North American culture, what other countries do well, and I get this when I travel is they just live well. And a lot of that has to do with putting down that hustle culture, turning it down a bunch of notches and just being like, you know, in Italy, I have this example where I remember the guy was. Someone had asked them, like, I think a tourist, American tour asked him, hey, why don't you stay open on Saturdays? Like, you'll make a lot more money in this neighborhood with all these tourists. He's like, I don't want money. Like, it's like, why would, why would I care about money? I want to be with my family. It's Saturday. And so, like, just like, the way his face was, like, no, why would I want money? Like, you're promoting the wrong thing. I think that helps as well. So I just want to. Want to make note of that. [00:41:15] Speaker A: Yeah, that's huge. That's huge. Got to make time for it, right? I think we were so programmed to work, work, work, work. [00:41:24] Speaker C: And even when I used to go on travel vacations in that mindset, it was very different. Like, I was like, okay, we're gonna go to this place and we have this week, and we're gonna do this, this, this, this. And it's like, check, check, check, check, check. Take the picture, move along. Take the picture, move along. And I still see a lot of people travel like that, and I'm just like, girl, that is not how I do it these days. I will have my idea of things I want to see generally, and I'll make sure I get to them. But I, I, I can't tell you how much I love waking up with no plan. And to me, that is where the birthplace of play. It's like, ooh, an open day. What do we do today, Michael? What do you want to do today? How do we make this fun? [00:41:59] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I don't think I could travel with somebody that was, like, super anal retentive and rigid on, like, following. No, I just need to flow with the vibe in the moment. [00:42:12] Speaker C: Presence. Presence is. Presence is really big in play. Presence and safety. Like, safety to just let yourself be you. [00:42:19] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Reno. [00:42:20] Speaker B: I need to name the elephant in the room, and this could be a whole other conversation. I should have said it sooner. Capitalism, colonization, patriarchy. I'm just saying it. I'm just saying it. We don't have to get into it, but, like, definitely there's something there. Definitely there is something there around why play is less accessible, you know? And that could be, like, a whole conversation in and of itself. So. Not going to get into it. But if, you know, you know, the ways that I play now, though. Gosh. I mean, I think in some ways, being an adult and growing up, so to speak, it's like there are things I can say that I couldn't say before. There are things I can do that I couldn't do to the degree that I wanted to before. It's like, now I'm grown, right? So I could do whatever I want, whenever I want. You know what I'm saying? And so what's interesting, though, is that that's not always how things happen. It's almost like I have work a little bit harder to embrace said freedom and realize said freedom, you know? So I love dancing. I love going for long walks. I love deep conversations. I love a pleasure. Pleasure sesh. Either, like, with myself or with a partner. I love listening to music. There's something around movement, too. Like, Matt, you name movement. I love being in my body, like, puttering around the house and, you know, like, I'm cleaning, and while I'm cleaning, I'm kind of, like, dropping it like it's hot with the headphones in, you know, stuff like that. Singing, like, using my voice, creating and noticing. I can welcome. I could certainly welcome more of a sense of play into my work, which may seem surprising to the people who know me because, like, I think people get that I'm a pretty playful person to begin with, but I can see where, like, I'm still even a bit rigid. And this conversation is, like, really? But the juices flowing, you know? So I'm appreciating it. I love that this gets to be therapy for us. This is another way that I play, you know, showing up to these conversations. They always feel fun. They always feel fun because there's room to explore and be curious and learn from other people and, and be surprised by what you say and what somebody else says. There's surprise, you know, mystery. So, yeah, workshops, swimming, hiking, gathering people, going on adventures, volunteering. I mean, yeah, lots, lots of stuff. I play in a lot of different ways. I've been thinking about getting a gaming console again, too. At some point. Like, I, I, I. In my mind, I was like, no, that's not, you know, you'll get addicted again, or that's not a productive and valuable use of your time. But it's like, no, no, no. I might still do it and then just kind of parent myself around it. Like, okay, you know, we'll, we'll, we won't get, we won't get too hooked. But yeah, yeah, yeah, it's interesting. [00:45:26] Speaker A: Up until two years ago, I thought play was like, like a waste of time almost, in a way. It's like, well, why, why? You know, I, I need to be. Because I was in the hustle culture. I was like, oh, I need to create more things. I need to, you know, build more stuff so I can make more money. And I just had this, I don't know, it's where. How I got swept up in all this crap. And then over the last two years, like, healing burnout and just kind of really coming back into myself. And now I'm like, I actually see value in, like, napping and, like, just being like, you know what? I'm gonna just take the afternoon off and I'm gonna go and put my skates on and go play outdoor. Like, just go shoot the puck around on the outdoor rink here in Calgary in the winter. And I actually see value in all this now. You know what I mean? It's like, this is actually what I want. I love that story, Michael, about the guy that's like, well, why do you don't you work on Saturdays? It's like, I used to be that guy that would be, like, flabbergasted. Like, why would you. That's the busiest day you can make the best amount of money. And now I'm like, I don't actually don't really care about those sorts of things. I don't care about fame. I don't care about money. I care literally about having a healthy relationship to my nervous system, because I've lived the other side of that, which is I, I've had the money, I've had the, the notoriety, and I haven't had a good relationship with my nervous system, and life fucking blows, okay? Because you just. You're. I'm not happy. I'm not connected to myself. I'm not playing enough. So now I've kind of gone the other direction and I'm just prioritizing. Yeah. Like, a good example is just being with my dog and, like, we just lay on the kitchen floor and just, like, play, and it's amazing. It's so fun. And, you know, going out in the summer, I like to go out and just, like, walk along river banks and just walk up the river and just, like, play in the river. It's like one of my favorite things to do, like, anything in nature, really. It's. I immediately enter play when I. When I go into nature. And. Yeah, I remember, Michael, you and I going. And star floating down the river. Like, that was just play. [00:47:24] Speaker C: Right. [00:47:24] Speaker A: Like, so much fun and jumping in and swimming and laughing and stuff like that, so. And then I love move. I love singing and dancing. So I'm always singing in my house. And that's like one of my. That is how I regulate my nervous system. Like, truly, if it wasn't for singing, if I lost my voice or I couldn't do it, I don't know what I'd do. I'd like. It'd be, let's say, my number one regulator and then moving my body. Like, I'm always dancing or moving or twirling or doing something. I'm always my. I have a very active body, and so it keeps me. And then I will say, like, and this is something I want more in my life, but I also need people who I'm in a match with, which is like, more sex, more. More pleasure sessions. Like you said, like, don't get me wrong, I love pleasuring with myself, but it's not the same. Like, I'm very demisexual. I need connection with. With somebody. So, yeah, it's. I definitely want to call that in more playful playtime, more adult playtime. [00:48:21] Speaker C: Yeah, I love this. [00:48:23] Speaker A: I love that word play. A pleasure. Those two words, really just something. They. They. They speak to my soul. What were you saying, Michael? [00:48:33] Speaker C: Nature. I can't believe I forgot to mention that. But, yeah, similar to you. I mean, I think it's because it's winter now where I am and I'm not focused on it. But yeah, when it's appropriate weather. I've talked about this before. I love just going out and exploring, like at my family cottage, you know, making fires and collecting sticks and burning them. And looking for plants. Oh, that's another thing. My gosh. My. My garden or my little. I'm a plant daddy and tending. I think I have 50 some odd plants now. And that is play for me. Like, it doesn't quite. I know it doesn't seem like it, but it is. Like I love, you know, pruning them and taking them and changing their soil and, you know, all that good stuff. And it gives me. It gives me some joy. And another thing with people that I like to do is games nights. So, you know, when I was younger, play for me might have been going out to the bar and dancing and stuff. And I still. I still do that once in a while. I still have time and room for that. But it's a lot more balanced out now with hosting people over in my place and us just gabbing and putting on music videos and sometimes singing karaoke. Other times we play some games. And that has been a great source of play as well. It's interesting how it has changed because before 10 years ago, you would have seen me at the bar and I would be having fun dancing and singing there. But for me, it's just kind of shifted words. Less of that and more of home play. [00:49:56] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I like me some home play. [00:49:59] Speaker B: I have an ultra ego. His name is Drama. He's kind of like my super. Like if I'm having trouble accessing play and mischief, I just. I just tap him. I just summon him and watch out, world. [00:50:13] Speaker A: Is that like your super ego? I can never remember. It's either the ID or the super [00:50:16] Speaker B: ego, but I think so. Yeah. But just this. There's this archetype that lives in me and he's. He's probably one of my. One of my quickest access points to play and mischief. Because he doesn't care. Like, he's so unabashed and shameless. Like, it just. Yeah, he'll get the party going in an instant. [00:50:37] Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. [00:50:39] Speaker C: You know, one thing we didn't talk about at all, and I just want to quickly mention it before we wrap up, is we're all coming at it from the perspective of, like, life is serious and we don't get enough play. But I do see a lot in the gay world, almost the opposite, which is an overextended. [00:50:53] Speaker A: Right. [00:50:54] Speaker C: So going back to how I see joy as a skill in my wheel, there's three. It's three aspects. One is contracted, which is what we've been talking about here today. There's imbalance and then there's overextended. And that's like escapism, hedonism, too much, too much. Too much partying, too much chasing, stimulation. And that's not play anymore, guys. That's. That's. That's a different thing. That's just avoidance, stressed out, up as fun. And I just want to make a note that that. That exists as well. It's not always the flavor we're talking about here today. [00:51:27] Speaker A: I agree. And I would even say go one step further and say if substances are involved, it's not. I actually don't think it's full play because I really think that it's. Play is meant to bring us to ease. It's meant to bring us into. Right. Whereas substances, you look at stimulants, they're going to stimulate your nervous system, and you look at alcohol, which is a depressant, it's going to depress your nervous. Nervous system. Right? So you have. You're using substances to regulate your nervous system, whereas play is just organically about movement or about, you know, engagement or creativity or something like that. And not saying that there isn't value in these other things. Right. But I do think that a lot of times, yeah, it's using exogenous things to regulate the nervous system. I wouldn't say that's. That's what we're talking about here. So. Yeah, and use the mantra of this. I titled this very specifically because when I was thinking of the title of this episode, it was like, let's play. It made me light up. I was like, I want to play with these two guys and, like, learn about their play. And so, like, use that as a mantra for yourself. Like, let's play. Like, say that to yourself, whether that's you speaking to your inner child or you speaking to your friends. And it's just like, let's play. Like, let's bring more play into. Into life and see where it leads you. So hopefully this episode has inspired you, listener, viewer, to. To invite more play into your life. It can be very healing, very therapeutic, very fun, and it's our birthright to be playful. [00:52:46] Speaker B: And it will save your life. It will save your life. Play will save your life. I will say it till I die. Yeah, till I die. [00:52:53] Speaker A: Cool. Will kill you. And play will save your life. [00:52:55] Speaker C: Matt, are you going to tell the audience about the. [00:52:58] Speaker A: We'll do it next. We'll do it next. When it's just you and I, I think. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, thanks, guys, for coming on and playing with me today. And for the listener, viewer, thanks for coming on this journey. Another episode. Hopefully you're taking away something valuable from this episode that you can bring into your own life. And yeah, come and join us in our connection circles. This month, Michael and I will be hosting one each. And you can go to gaymansbrotherhood.com for everything. Gay men's brotherhood events tab is where you'll find our connection connection circles. All right, much love, everyone.