[00:00:04] Speaker A: Welcome to Gay Men going deeper, a podcast series by the gay men's Brotherhood where we talk about personal development, mental health and sexuality. We are your hosts. Michael Diorio is a life and wellness coach specializing in relationships and self confidence. Reno Johnson is a spiritual life, love and business coach.
And I'm Matt Lancadol, a counselor and facilitator specializing in healing and empowerment. We each have our own practice and in this podcast we're sharing all of our best stuff.
Today we are going to be talking about first dates, how to have a successful first date, and we're going to be exploring questions like how do you know if the first date was successful?
What are you typically looking for on a first date?
And what are good questions to ask on a first date?
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There's a lot in this topic. There can be a lot to be talked about.
First dates are the, I think for a lot of people, a mixed bag of feelings. It can be exciting, can be nerve wracking, can be joyful. There's so many different experiences that we can have on first dates. And I think it's important to, you know, the title is talking about how to have a successful first date. And I want to expand what that could mean. Successful could look like challenging yourself, handling rejection well, meeting Mister right and having an amazing, amazing time. So I think it's important to expand our intention and have an expansive intention when we're going on a date, we can have a primary intention, which is like, yeah, I'm dating because I want to find somebody I can commit my life to and have a relationship. But I think it's also important to have secondary intentions that you can fall back on if it's not the right person for you. Could you have had fun?
Could you have learned something about yourself?
So, yeah, sometimes people have intentions to find their soulmate, to have fun, to learn about yourself, to grow, to face your fears. And I think the more that we have more intentions we have in our toolkit, the more likely we're going to be able to have a successful, I use air quotes, first date, so, but to say that I also want to honor that. I talked about challenges and excitement. So the challenges of having, of dating can be, you know, I think for gay men, there's a lot of variables. There's a lot of moving parts.
You know, in a heterosexual relationship, you often know who the top and the bottom is, right? In gay relationships, there's sometimes you have these variables that come into play. There's lots of things that can come into play when it comes to dating. I find, at least in my experience, there's a lot of variables that have to align in order to meet somebody that you're compatible with. I also think that's, that's in a heterosexual sense as well. There's just, dating requires a lot of stars to align if you're looking to find your person. Okay, um. Dating can bring up a ton of anxiety. I know for me on a first date, I tend to have butterflies and I'm like, how is this going to go? You know, is this person going to sit down and I'm going to have zero energetic attraction to this person and I'm going to have to spend an hour or two with them, you know, like when I don't really want to, or do I have to, like, speak up and say, you know what, this isn't right for me and have a very uncomfortable conversation and get up and leave? Right. It can. There's just a high probability of awkwardness on, on first dates. Um, vulnerability can be really scary if you do find someone you like and it's like you have to be vulnerable and share parts of yourself. Um, it can bring up our fears and our triggers, right. If we get rejected or, or it doesn't go well, it can bring up, bring up discomfort for us and, um, it can bring up hopelessness, too. If we're dating and dating and dating and dating and we haven't found anybody that's a match, it can feel like, is there something wrong with me? Why can't I not find the right person? Um, so those are some challenges of dating that I came up with. I'm sure there'll be more throughout the episode. Um, and then the excitements. Cause I was like, I can, with, with my attachments, while I can tend to over and fixate on the challenges of date. Of dating. So I'm, like, really trying to, like, I had to work hard to find. Okay, yeah, dating can be exciting again, and these sorts of things. So having fun. Dating can be fun. You don't have to, if you go in with the intention of this, I have to find my soulmate. This is the, this is the person it can kill at first date, right? Because it feels like an interview or whatever. If you can, can you just go and have fun and enjoy being present with this person and have a fun connection with them? Right. Um, you can use dating as an opportunity to get to know yourself better. I know this podcast attracts personal development junkies, and, um, dating and relationships are probably the most powerful way to learn about yourself and grow. Um, you get to practice curiosity with another person and make them feel seen and heard, which can be really beautiful. And, um, and the lastly, the feeling of lust and attraction. It's very intoxicating. And first dates can be this, if there is a charge, can feel really, really nice being like, oh, this is amazing. And can anticipate sexual connection and these sorts of things. So first dates can be really, really beautiful as well. So.
So let's now explore how we would know if the first date was successful or not. And let's start with Michael.
[00:07:13] Speaker B: Yay. I love this topic. Thank you, Matt, for the intro.
You guys both know, but maybe the audience doesn't know that we've been, this one has been kind of on the back burner for a while, um, because I've recently reentered the dating scene, and so I wanted it to be, and we all wanted it to be like something that we can be a little bit more personal with. So I'm, I'm coming at this episode today with a lot of personal experience. I'm really excited to kind of bring that into it. Um, the last dating era for me, I was 35 to 37. I'm now 40. So it's a little bit different. Um, a lot of things have changed in my life. I've changed. So I'm entering this new dating phase is a bit of a new man. And I'd say so far, dating in my forties is different than, than it was a few years ago. I know it's just a few years, but honestly, I have noticed some changes. So, yeah, I'll speak to a little bit of that today. Um, and what I did to prepare is actually made a list of the first dates that I've been on, uh, since the time of recording. Um, and, yeah, I kind of, I loved, I love this question. How do you know the first day was successful? So what I came up with was three telltale for me signs that a first day was successful. Obviously, the answer is how I feel, but, I mean, I want to be a bit more specific with you guys. So I was like, okay, what does that mean? Like, what. What feeling am I looking for? That's the question I asked myself here. So three things that tell me that a first date was successful is that I'm more attracted to them now or after the date than I was before. So something has happened during that time together where I'm now more attracted to you, whether it's physical, emotional, intellectual, whatever that is. Right. So there's like, usually at the end of the day, there's just yearning of like, am I going to kiss them? Are we going to kiss? Are we going to touch? What I want to do, I want to be close to them. Um, and a rule for me that I've set for myself in this phase of dating is that I'm not going to have sex on the first date. Um, I often do want to. Like, my penis is saying, yes, we do. Yes, we do. But my, my heart and mind are being like, no, Michael, just chill. Just chill. Slow down a bit. Um, but, yeah, so there will be a yearning at the end for, like, more.
The second thing is, um, I don't want it to end.
So when the date's happening, like, usually kind of can go late if it's at night. And typically, I'm like a bedtime guy. I'm like, okay, it's time for bed. I really would like to get into my bed by myself. I mean, um, but I'll find that I don't want it to end. I want more. And so how I'll know that that's the case is I'll be hoping in my mind that we get to do this again. It's kind of like that nervousness, like, oh, I want to do this again. I hope he wants to do this again. Who's going to say, what should I say something, you know, that kind of like, oh, I really want more of this. Like, I don't want this to be the last or the only time we meet up. That's number two. And then the third thing is usually the next day or in the days after. I'm still kind of lingering in that happy feeling. I'm still lingering in that. That was fun. I want more of that. Or kind of soaking in the, in the joy of it, the satisfaction of it. Um, and how I can tell that that's the case is I'll usually want to, like, tell someone about it, like text my bestie and be like, guess what? I just met this guy, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and I really enjoyed it. So there's a little bit of excitement afterwards. So it's kind of like it lingers, and I want to see him again. In my typical gemini mind, I'm very fleeting from one thing to the next thing. And so sometimes I tend to forget about things and forget about people and forget about messages. I'm not great at that. I I'm trying to get better. But if, if this experience lingers with me, then I know that that's a good sign. So those are my three telltale signs that it has been a successful first date.
[00:10:46] Speaker A: I have a question for you before we move on to Reno. Yeah. How is dating different in your forties? You said it's different.
[00:10:52] Speaker B: That's a whole other podcast so many ways. But I think for me, I'm just in a different phase of my life, and I'm looking for, like, I know more deeply what I want, and I'm so, like, I thought I was, I thought I wasn't willing to put up with bullshit before, but now it's just like, I'll give you an example on this. One of the first dates I had recently, I think the guy listens to this podcast. Um, he does, actually. You'll know who I'm talking about, or he'll know who he is, but he said to me something, but we're discussing the time, and he was in traffic and he had to get there. Blah, blah, blah. And I said flat out, this might sound mean to some people, but in my mind, I'm like, oh, this is great. I said, I will wait for you for ten minutes, and if you're not there and I. And I don't hear from you, I'm leaving. And that's that. Just say it. Yeah. And he's like, oh, that's good to know, because there's a good chance I'll be stuck in traffic. So what he did, he's like, okay, here's what I'll do. I'll send you my location because I'll be driving, and that way you can kind of gauge where I'm at and whether you want to wait or not. I was like, oh, God bless. Like, green, green flag for me, that kind of level. But anyway, I wouldn't have done that maybe five years ago. I would have just kind of waited and sat there and like, oh, I hope he's coming. But these days, I'm like, no, I'm waiting ten minutes and then I'm gone. I got shit to do.
[00:12:02] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. More fierce, it sounds like. More. Yeah, yeah, it's good. I love that. I like that for you.
[00:12:08] Speaker B: That's just one example of many that we could. We can talk more about that later.
[00:12:11] Speaker A: Yeah, maybe we'll have an episode on that at some point. I think we're doing dating again, you know, a few months after this, so. Yes, we are. Yes.
Cool. What about yourself, Reno? Um, how do you know if a first date was successful?
[00:12:24] Speaker C: Well, I mean, Michael just, like, stole all the good ones. I was like, oh, my God. What do I even say after that? My goodness.
[00:12:32] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:12:33] Speaker C: I mean, for obvious reasons. Like, number one for me is fun, you know, did we have fun when it comes to dating? Like, something I realized is there's, like, two parts for me.
People think that when you go on a date, you're there to, like, sort of perform and impress the person that you're on a date with. And. And I think that, like, it works both ways in my experience. So, you know, yes, they meet. They may be, like, auditioning me, but, like, I'm also auditioning them, you know? And I think when I. When I recognize that, when I remember that, it allows me to relax a little bit and not. Not be, like, you know, in this, like, totally performative place the whole time, it's like, okay, we're. We're on a level playing field. Right.
But. But even that aside, sometimes I'll even just let the idea that, like, I'm auditioning them and they're auditioning me. Go and just really relax into having a good time, you know, like, what would make this date? What would make this date fun? Um, and I say a second thing that I noticed that qualifies a good date for me is growth.
So I really appreciate when I'm with a person and we're on a date and, like, I don't know, something a bit edgy comes up or something a bit vulnerable comes up, and we're able to navigate that. Something about that, for me, is a testament to what, like, I don't know, any sort of future relationship or interaction might look like. So I'm not afraid of, you know, like, those edgy areas in a first date, and I'll kind of happily explore them. Like, I won't force it, but I'm not afraid to go there, you know? And it just makes things really juicy and interesting.
I remember recently I met this guy, and we went to this dessert shop. Well, basically, it was actually, it was so much fun.
He was downstairs after this event I was volunteering at, and I saw him downstairs, and we started talking, and then we ended up going for a walk. And I said, I said, do you trust me? And he said, yeah. And I said, okay, we're going to go to this place.
No, I said, I'm going to take you somewhere that I love. Do you trust me? And he said, yeah. And I said, okay, let's go. So we went to this dessert shop, and while we were there, so that was like, that was, like, number one for me. I was like, okay, this is awesome. I love this. So we order the dessert, and we sit down, and I said to him, so, were you waiting outside for me when I came downstairs? Like, I asked him directly if he was waiting for me, and he started laughing, and he was like, I was wondering when you were going to ask me that. And he's like, what do you think? And I said, of course you were waiting for me. And he said, typical Scorpio. Like, thinks that I'm waiting for him.
But anyway, it's just like, I don't know. It's like, for me, there was a bit of fun, there was a bit of an edge, and, you know, and we both really had a good time.
And then I think the last thing for me would be, like, attraction, you know? So am I, like Michael said, am I still attracted to you or more attracted to you? Following the end of the day, you know, it's like, do I feel drawn to you? Do I want to continue to see you do. I want to continue to engage with you. And do you feel that way as well?
Because that's important. And I think, like, I guess one of the last things I'll say is, you know, it took me years to get this, but, like, they're not a match if they don't like you back, you know? Like, I. Because I know I would sort of ruminate in these, like, stories and thoughts and ideas in my head. Like, oh, but, you know, but they've got. But I felt it. But they've got to be the one or whatever, you know? And it's like, well, no, like, if they're not a match, if they're not also into you, like, then they're nothing. They're not a match. They're not the one, you know? And that was really. That was a. That was a real sort of aha moment for me that, like, allowed me to just stop pursuing anyone who it wasn't reciprocal with and just move on. It was like, okay, that was fun. We had a good time. I lived, I learned, we laughed. It was great. Moving on, you know? So, yeah, I think that's it. Yeah. Yeah. What about you, Matt?
[00:17:59] Speaker A: Well, I just want to say I resonate with what you're sharing, because I used to attract emotionally unavailable or, like, avoidant men. And I think it's, like, a product of, like, growing up, like, in maybe a household where your needs didn't go met. So it's like you're in. You're familiar with wanting to attract something that's not there for you.
[00:18:14] Speaker C: Oh, my God. Daddy issues.
[00:18:15] Speaker A: Yeah, it's like daddy issues. Totally. Yeah.
[00:18:18] Speaker C: Yeah. Daddy doesn't love me, so I'm like, love me, love me, you know?
[00:18:22] Speaker A: Yeah. And when you're not willing to put up with that anymore, it's like, no, you're not reciprocating. You're not showing up. You're not responsive in the level that I need. Like. And willing to walk away from that. Like, it shows that you're. You're really.
[00:18:33] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. And you said it earlier, too. Like, I think this is also really important is how you quantify and qualify a successful date. Because I was gonna joke that, you know, a date was successful. A first date was successful if there's a second one. And, like, I was kidding because I've gone on some dates that were like, it was just the first date and there was no other date, but I'm like, no, it was successful. You know, we had fun, we laughed, grew. It was great. We learned some things. Now I'm closer to knowing what is a fit and what isn't. You are too. It's like, awesome, you know?
[00:19:08] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:19:09] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:19:11] Speaker B: That growth mindset, I think, is so key to approach to dating. We talk about growth mindset a lot and, like, our goals and growth, but, like, you can apply that.
You just said Reno is like the perfect example of taking that and applying it to a dating situation.
[00:19:23] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. There's always, there's always a nugget of growth within all failure or things like that. That's the growth mindset. We have a podcast on it, if you. I'm not sure which one it is, but it's a ways back. Couple way back.
[00:19:37] Speaker B: Way back. Playback.
[00:19:38] Speaker A: Way back when.
Okay, so how do I know if a first date was successful? So, yeah, along with what Reno said, I feel good after. I feel expansive. I always govern things based off of my intuition. So. Yes, and go ahead. Means expansive. Heart opens and constriction, closure, tummy, all in knots and stuff is like constriction. It's like not a good experience for me. So I very somatically map things like that.
So attraction creates expansiveness. I want to move toward them. So I'll feel like my heart opens. Yeah. My genitalia opens. Like that part of things. The attraction and I feel exactly, um. I feel valued. Um, is a big thing. So that's how I feel good after I'm like, yeah, they took an interest in me and they, they wanted to learn about me, and there was just. They did that. They leaned into me as well. I wasn't too much, um, because I can sometimes feel like that. Like, I'm very. I can be very intense and I can go very deep, very quick with people. So, like, I find that sometimes people can perceive me as too much. Um, so that's a level of reciprocation is equal. Like what you said, Reno. That's a good.
Because I didn't have that on my little list here. So it was good to be reflected that a big one for me is that I was true to myself. I was authentic. Because again, I've gotten feedback that I am too intense. But I'm not going to tone myself down for people. I want to find somebody that can match my level of intensity. So I was true to myself. I talked about the things that interest me, which sometimes aren't the things that interest other people. Right. And it's like, yeah, I was true to myself. This is a huge, huge aspect of what I define as successful.
There was expressed interest during the date to meet again. It's like, you know what? I'm really enjoying this. This is so fun. Like, we should do this again or something. Like, there's that, like, that mirror of the fun is also being. Being reciprocated.
And then to that, there's follow up after the date. So usually on successful dates, for me, the person always messages, you know, like, maybe even sometimes right after we split, like, you know, that was so awesome. Let's do it again. Or something like that. The person that, like, plays the game of, like, oh, gotta wait three days before you message them again or else they're gonna think you're needy or whatever, like, plays out that crap. It's like, no. Like, even 24 hours, I'm like, if you enjoyed yourself, let's just be real. If you have an urge to want to message me, message me. I don't like games, and I'll sense them right away. And that's, like a sign of not a successful date.
The person has a lot of eye contact and was leaning into me. I love eye contact. And I think it's just, it's a sign that somebody's really endearing and connecting with you and they're really appreciating you and what you're saying.
And then, so those are all kind of the positives. Positives. And so the last one is that I handled rejection well and I recovered quickly because for me, that's a sign of a successful first date. That was meant to teach me something that maybe I didn't want, right? But I was maybe meant to be rejected and feel humility or move through the feelings of rejection in a conscious way.
And that's what happened to me recently. I went on a date and I think I talked about this, but the guy, I could feel his energy closing off because I was really intense and the things I wanted to talk about. And it almost felt like he was threatened by me a little bit or something. And I felt rejected. So afterwards, I just felt this really sinking, shameful feeling, like I was too much and I should have dialed it back.
But then I recovered quick. I just sat in my car after and I was taking breaths and I was breathing into my ego feelings around it all, and I was connecting with my higher self, which is, this was not a fit for you. Like, if they can't handle you on date one, they're not going to be able to handle you on date ten. Trust me. Right? So I was able to, like, really recognize, like, this is. So I was able to recognize my value and. And that I was authentic. And, um, so that, for me, was a successful first date because I was able to see that I needed to learn, that I needed to hold space for myself and have compassion for myself, uh, which is so essential on the dating, in the dating world, having compassion for yourself, because it feels like at every turn, there's an opportunity for rejection, um, ghosting all these things that can really bring up a lot of shitty feelings for us. So.
Yeah.
[00:23:51] Speaker C: Yeah, I want to say something as well that just came up.
Like, imagine we all went on dates wanting the person we're sitting across from. Like, I feel expansive as I say this, wanting the person we're sitting across from to win, you know, like, imagine that's how we came in.
Wanting them to feel relaxed, wanting them to have fun, wanting them to be their most authentic self, whether it meant a first. Sorry, a second date or not. But I just think, like, something about holding that energy and that intention. Yeah.
Gives way to something really beautiful, and it also kind of takes the pressure off of us. Like, you know, instead of me focusing on, like, being completely focused on myself and, you know, performing and whatnot, I'm like, how can I hold the person sitting across from me in, like, reverence and. And love and admiration and kind of, like, you know, just.
Yeah, yeah. Like, like, gas them up a bit, you know? Yeah, yeah. Because it's. I've seen it. It's been so brilliant for me. I've seen, like, I have a friend, and someone said, like, where did this guy come from? Like, you guys are, like, so close all of a sudden. Like, you're, you know, and they were just so surprised, like, what? How did this happen? And I'm like, I think I just chose to love him. I think I was just like, I love him. And then that was it. And then it was just beautiful, you know? So even if you don't, it doesn't end up being the one. Like, what if you could just come into every date you went on in that energy, you know? I think it could be beautiful.
[00:25:53] Speaker B: Are you dating this guy?
[00:25:55] Speaker C: No, like, we're friend dating. It's a bromance. Yeah, it's a bromance. We cuddle and shit, too. We, like, cook together and we have sleepovers and we go for, like, desserts.
[00:26:07] Speaker A: This is the chocolate strawberry guy.
[00:26:08] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, that's him. Yeah. It's super cute. I love it. Yeah.
[00:26:12] Speaker A: Yeah, that is cute.
[00:26:14] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:26:17] Speaker A: Okay, we're going to move on to question two. So what are you typically looking for on a first date, Mister Michael.
[00:26:24] Speaker B: All righty.
So many things.
You guys named a lot of them fun.
Matt, you talked about being valued and seeing, like, there are so many things that you guys already mentioned.
I think for me and my, and what attracts me to somebody, the first thing would be, like, a good conversation.
Someone who is able to go a bit deeper, like you both have said. Like, not just stick to the surface stuff. Like, I really get attracted to people when I sense that there's a bit of vulnerability and that intimacy really draws me in, um, authenticity. So, I mean, we've talked about before that we can sense bullshit a mile away. I don't even think at this point, at this stage. And this is another difference from dating in my forties than before. People don't even get to the point of a date with me unless they've gone through a lot of filters, and one of which would be the authenticity. So by the time I'm on a first date with somebody, all the ones that I've been on lately, they have been fantastic, because my filter is so, so stringent. But I would just hope that the authenticity I sensed in our exchanges beforehand would continue in our, in our date. Um, there also needs to be a bit of light heartedness. I really, I mean, you guys know that there's a mischievous side of me. I like to have a bit of fun. So, yes, we can, we can go deep, but also I want a little bit of wit. I want some flirtation and just a little bit of light hearted. As someone who can show me that he can have a bit of fun, he could chill out a bit. That's really important to me.
[00:27:48] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:27:48] Speaker B: So that all that in the conversation sense, like, the conversation flows, it's good. I mean, of course there might be silent moments and some awkwardness, and I'm okay with that. I don't expect it to be, like, flawless in the first date, but it needs to feel, like, doable for me. Like, okay, this is someone I can continue getting to know. Yeah, the conversation's one, two. You guys already talked about it. I'll say it again. Presence, listening. So many people do not know how to stay present, hold space and listen. So if I'm speaking, I prefer listening. By the way, in a date, I'm the one who's like, sure, I can hold the space. I love listening. I love asking questions. I prefer that role. So in the last date I had, he's like, I feel like I'm talking too much. I want to hear about you. And I'm like, no, no, no, I like it. I prefer this. But anyway, he started asking me some questions, like, okay, fine, we can do this. But he was so, like, he leaned in just like, as you said, matt, his eyes were on me. I didn't see his phone the entire night, which for me is a great sign. And my phone was away the entire night as well. Um, the eye contact was there. Like, I can just tell he was actually listening. And it sounds like such a, an easy thing to do, but I think a lot of people, especially on a first date, can get really stuck in their head about, like, what am I doing? What am I saying? Oh, my God, can you see this? And, like, we kind of forget to listen sometimes.
[00:29:04] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:29:05] Speaker B: Um, so that's, that's a huge one. Presence. I put that under the category of presence. Just being present with me.
[00:29:10] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:29:10] Speaker B: And then, of course, chemistry. So, yeah, that attraction, that energy between us, there's a bit of flirtation. So these are all things that I kind of want from a first date, especially if I'm just meeting them in person for the first time. So if I've only chatted with them online and this is the first time we're actually meeting, then I'm definitely looking for some kind of actual attraction because so many times, all their pictures could be perfection and very hot. And then once I meet them in person, I'm like, eh, sorry, there's just nothing there. Right. So I'm looking for that chemistry too.
Yeah. Amongst many other things. These are just three, but I mean, we can, I don't want to go on, but, yeah, this is, these are some of the main ones for me.
[00:29:48] Speaker A: Yeah. When was this date that you had?
[00:29:51] Speaker B: It was on Tuesday. Oh, like, just a few days ago? Yeah. And I want to, I want to add the thing about being late. What was great about him is a, he's, he sent me his location so I can kind of track where he was in terms of how late he was going to be. And then he also sent me a message saying, grab the first drink. It's on me. Grab whatever you want. Sit down, get comfy, have a drink. I'll be there, I promise. And I was like, that is my kind of man.
[00:30:17] Speaker A: Yeah. That's so good.
[00:30:18] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:30:21] Speaker A: Cool. Yeah. I'm really curious for both of you, like, to see who you attract next. I always just, I'm so fascinated by stuff.
[00:30:27] Speaker C: You're talking about us too?
[00:30:28] Speaker A: Both of you guys? Yeah. Like, who you attract. Like, I always like meeting people's partners and, like, seeing who they attract and, like, always like, you know, I like feeling into people's love because as an empath, I can feel it. Right? And it's just. I don't know. It's just a beautiful thing.
[00:30:40] Speaker C: There's a guy at my gym.
We haven't run into each other again yet, but we finally spoke after, like, weeks of making eye contact and kind of saying hello and stuff. So I'm like, hmm, I think it's gonna go somewhere. I have a feeling. I have a feeling about him. We'll see. Stay tuned because I'll share it here.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. They'll definitely be tea.
I'm going to answer this question in kind of a different way. So I'm imagining.
So the question is, what are you typically looking for on a first date? So, like, for me, when I think about my ideal first date, as it occurs to me in this exact moment, it's like we meet up and there's time to ground.
So, like, we, you know, either he comes in or we find somewhere to sit and we just take a moment to land and connect to one another.
And it's not like, it's not, like, so planned out and. And sort of premeditated, so to speak. But I'm just speaking to, like, the ideal. But there's, like, room and space for us to connect, you know, so we're making eye contact. We're checking in. How are you? How was your day? How are you feeling? You know, but just taking a moment to pause to land and to get, like. I like what you said about the body connection, Matt, and the somatic experience. I think it's, like, so important because I'm feeling my way through dating, you know, like, I'm not. There is some. There is some, like, cerebral activity, but I'm very much, like, intuiting and feeling my way through the date, which is often really exciting because it leaves a lot of room for spontaneity and the unexpected. And if you're into that, I'm your person.
And then I would say from there, I think, like, spontaneity. Spontaneity, I think, is really important. It's a turn on for me. That is a turn on for me, you know? So again, we're both, like, tuned in, we're both checking in, and we're kind of exploring, like, what's present, you know, what's present, where do we want to go and also, like, who's leading and who's following? Because I'm. I'm, like, I would say I'm a verse bottom and I don't just mean in the bedroom. I mean, like, in life. So I'm happy to be like, okay, I'm going to take us on an adventure. Here's what my intuition is telling me we're going to do. But I'm also totally open to them being like, do you trust me? Like, we're going to go do this. So that, to me, is really exciting. I'm okay with something being pre. Pre planned or premeditated. I also just think it's so fun to kind of drop into the moment and tune into where we're at and then just move from there. And sometimes we just end up, like, hanging out on the couch with some candlelight and some music and some treats and just, like, hours of deep conversation and maybe a bit of snuggles. Sometimes we're like, let's throw on our jackets and our shoes and just, like, wander spontaneously through the city into this dimly lit bar or this place over here that seems interesting. Or walk along the seawall or nature so that it's kind of like, all bets are off, you know? It's really an intuitive, spontaneous thing for me. I think that that's it for me. Yeah.
[00:34:36] Speaker A: Snuggles and treats.
[00:34:37] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:34:38] Speaker C: Oh, my God.
[00:34:40] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:34:41] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:34:41] Speaker A: It reminded me of our.
I think it was. It wasn't our first friend date, Reno, but when. When we were in Vancouver and we. We fell asleep on the beach, it.
[00:34:53] Speaker C: Was like, okay, this. Yeah. And that if, like, of. Of the signs that a date, friend date, romantic date went well, if. If we. If I fall asleep.
Yeah, it's not a bad thing. It's a good thing. It means my body and my nervous system are so comfortable around you that I can relax, you know? So it's like if we can nap together, you're. We're winning.
[00:35:24] Speaker A: You're winning.
[00:35:25] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:35:27] Speaker A: Yeah. That's a great, great way to look at it. The nervous system is always speaking. Right. And it's like safety.
Yeah. So that's actually. I'm going to start there then. That's a good.
Because I didn't have it down. I wrote down comfortable, but for me, comfortable would happen when I feel safe.
So, yeah, that's. I think that's a big one. Like, and that for me is like a.
It's like a ping pong game. Right? Like, safe. Unsafe for me would be if I throw the ping pong and it doesn't get reciprocated or it's like, there's just not that thing. We're not dancing together and I've been on a few dates like that where it just feels like pulling teeth or it's just like, there's no rhythm, you know? So for me, like, the rhythm is really important.
I'm trying. I have it. There's a. Well, I'll say it first. Value alignment. Okay. There's a shadow side to this one, too, because I can be very, very hardcore in, like, is this person aligned to me? Like, they have to be 100% aligned to me? This is like my trauma self. You know, the parts of me that maybe are still healing that are, like, looking for reasons why this person's going to betray me or hurt me. So, like, there's value misalignment. Um, so I'm actually off the dating pool right now, and I'm like, I'm going on friend date. So I've changed all my apps. Well, the only app I use, which is Tinder, I've changed it to dating or looking for friends. That's it. And I've been going on friend dates and learning how to have platonic connection with gay men and learning how to swipe with energetic resonance of, is this person going to bring value to my life, not to my dating life? And it's been actually a really very cool lesson I've been learning from this, but it is so when I go on a first date romantically, that is really important to me. Still value alignment. Because all of my previous relationships, there was red flags and I didn't. I chose not to see them, or I didn't see them, and it led to the demise of the relationship. One of them is drinking alcohol. I don't want to date somebody that drinks alcohol. And I have made the sacrifice and I'm like, okay, I'm just gonna, you know, maybe they'll change or whatever. And it never, whenever you have to go into a relationship of looking like, you know, I, hopefully they change. That's a very big red flag. You don't want to go into a relationship having to change somebody. At least for myself, it's important to find somebody. So values is just so key. So I'm always assessing for values. Energetic connection is important. So again, that resonance, that dance, that flow, do I feel expansive? Do I want to move towards them? Can I envision myself being naked with them? Like, these things are important.
So physical attraction, level of consciousness. So I spend and have dedicated my life to a spiritual path. So I have an expansive level of consciousness, meaning that I can see myself in many different lights. I understand my parts, I understand my shadows. I have a strong ability to be able to tune into other people and. Right. I do this work for a living. So somebody that has a connection to their own consciousness, I'm not going to say that they have to match mine because I don't know if that's possible. Because I would need to find somebody that's dedicated their life to the exact things I have. And that's not reasonable. Right. So I think somebody that has a connection to themselves and self awareness and introspection and these sorts of things, they take responsibility for themselves. Like, these are really important qualities that I look for.
Ability to hold space. So like you said, michael, listening, like active listening, reflecting, sharing. How my share impacted you. Like, let's, let's take it to those levels. You know? Like, I think holding space for one another is such an important quality in a relationship. And I would say if I'm going on a date with somebody, I'm looking probably to connect with them romantically further.
And then through the holding space and the listening, that they take a genuine interest in me. I think that's so, so important. Like, yeah. Feeling seen and heard, it's like the two things I need in a relationship in order to feel valued. So if somebody asks me a lot of questions and they take an interest in me, I think we're off to a good start.
Okay.
This is juicy. Yeah. I knew dating is always a juicy one.
[00:39:39] Speaker B: It's so relevant now for me. I mean, you guys have been dating for, you guys have been in the dating pool for a while. I like Matt, that you've switched your, your, your strategy, I guess, or what you're doing there.
[00:39:48] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:39:49] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:39:50] Speaker A: Do you want to know why I've done it is because I've, I thought about this. I'm like, I, I have trust issues in relationships, right? Because of my attachment style. So I have a fear of being betrayed. So when I go into relationships, I tend to be this, like, you know, hyper vigilant looking for reasons why they would hurt me. And if I can go into a friendship connection, I don't carry this energy, right. And I want to learn about somebody and I want to take it super slow. So I'm a firm believer, and this is what I'm intuiting, is that I'm going to likely be friends with somebody and then perhaps that turns into a romantic thing and we just learn about each other at a really slow pace. And I get a sense of who they are because people share themselves differently when they're platonically connecting with you than when they're romantically connecting. And everybody, when they're romantically connecting, for the most part, at least in my experience, leads with their best foot, and they put their highlight reels out there, and then three months in, you get to learn who they really are. Right. Their insecurities, their fears, their quirks and all these things. And I find with friends, you learn that fairly quickly, or at least I do. So I think it'll be a better strategy for me, and part of that will probably be my healing. Right. Learning how to trust again and these sorts of things.
[00:41:05] Speaker B: Yeah. And ultimately, they say your partner is your best friend, like your long term partner.
So might as well start there, right?
[00:41:11] Speaker A: That's.
[00:41:11] Speaker B: That's what I think a great relationship is built on. Is that friendship at the base? At the core?
[00:41:16] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And if I don't want to be friends with you, then I don't want to date you either. Right.
It's a good assessment tool. Yeah.
Okay, so questions. So when we're talking about, you know, going on a first date, what. What questions are you loading up in your arsenal that you're going to shoot at them?
[00:41:37] Speaker B: I didn't know how to answer this because, I mean, it really depends. So, again, I was looking back to my most recent experiences on dates, and they're all different. Some of them I met online, like, through an app. Other people I met in person, and we kind of met, like, oh, let's do this, but on a proper date.
And so I didn't know much about them at all. So it really depends. But. But ultimately, as I was saying before, I really like the listening and asking questions. It's a role I'm very comfortable in. Um, and I do, you know, I am present. I'm all the things I think that I asked for. But, yeah, I mean, it really depends on what I already know about them. If there's something that, for example, if it's something like where we're chatting on Grindr or Instagram and I haven't met the person and we're kind of talking about something, I'll kind of flag it in my head, like, oh, that's something I want to go back to when we meet up. Like, I don't want to have this conversation over a text. It's just going to be much more juicy and fun for me if I kind of remember that for later. So I kind of have some things in my back pocket and then, same with me, like, I could share something. Sometimes when we're texting and I choose not to, I'm like, no, I'm going to save this story or save this particular thing until it's a. Until we meet in person.
So it really depends. But I would say something for me that's really important to me, especially this phase of my life now is travel.
I have just traveled a lot and I intend on doing more of it. Um, I'm at this phase where I just want to explore and go to like everywhere. So I think a great question for me that I'd like to ask in person is what are your next travel plans? Just a very simple, easy answer. Um, and then just go from there. Like, that's just one question and then just let it. Like, it's hard for me to. I don't really plan my conversations too much. I just have some ideas in my pocket to use. And then organically the conversation will go from there. I might ask, why have you been there before? You know, what's bringing you there? That kind of thing. Just to get a sense of who they are. And I can im a pretty good judge of who someone is by answers to relatively simple questions because I can ask a lot of whys. Why and how. Yeah, yeah. And then another one might be like, if im really struggling and like, theres a lull in the conversation, something I can go to easily is like, oh, what are you reading these days? Or what are you watching these days? Have you seen anything really cool like thats? If theres.
Yeah, like a silence and an awkward silence. Ill kind of throw that one out there again. Gives me an idea for what stimulates their mind, what they like, and that's really important to me. I really am attracted to people's minds and how they think. I've learned that is the most attractive thing. Yeah.
[00:44:03] Speaker A: Yeah.
What are your next travel plans, Michael?
[00:44:07] Speaker B: My next travel plans, Matt, are going to Europe in the fall because I really want to connect with my roots in Italy.
[00:44:14] Speaker A: Oh, nice.
[00:44:15] Speaker B: And I want to spend a bit of time there. I want to spend a few months there at least and maybe go to Spain at the same time because Spain is my favorite country and I want to go to the north of Spain this time.
[00:44:25] Speaker C: So wait, why is Spain your favorite country?
[00:44:27] Speaker B: I have never had a bad time. I love the food. I love the culture. I love the history. It's very LGBTQ friendly, like, extremely LGBTQ friendly. And the men are beautiful with a capital b.
Yeah, I love it. And I'm single now, so, you know, I love it.
[00:44:49] Speaker A: And explore.
[00:44:50] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:44:56] Speaker C: So two things. One.
Oh, what was it? You said something, michael, I can't remember. I'll come back to it. It might come back to me, but the other one was.
So, for me, when it comes to questions about.
About a person, like, again, it's all very intuitive.
So much of my life is lived that way. And what I can say is I don't come armed with questions, but I do come armed with genuine curiosity.
So, you know, I come in, and I'm really just, like, tuning into my body, tuning into the space, tuning into them, tuning into their energy. Like, it's really. I'm really tuning in. And then. And then it's like, okay, what's there? Like, what am I. What am I curious about? You know, genuinely, what am I curious about? And sometimes it's like, you know, how was your day? How was your week? What'd you get up to? How you feeling? How's your heart? How's your head? What's present for you? You know, like. And then the basics. Like what? Yeah, like, what do you do for fun? What do you do for fun? What do you enjoy?
And sometimes, I mean, I probably won't ask this on a first date, but maybe.
What don't you want me to know about you? You know, that's the. Like, that's the Scorpio in me. That's the Scorpio in me. I'm like, what don't you want me to know about you?
[00:46:39] Speaker B: I say, you'll never know. That's what I would respond. You'll never find out.
Good luck.
[00:46:44] Speaker C: Scare you away, or you're gonna love it. But yeah, which I'm fine with. I'm like, okay, well, you know, that's me. But there's this game in authentic relating.
If I'm offering up, like, if I'm offering up tools, because I don't necessarily do this, but honestly, I might do it on my next day. It's called the Google game. And so I guess the way it works is you're like, if I were to Google Michael and most embarrassing experience, what would I find? And then you would just, like, share.
And then let's say you were, like, sharing in there, and you said something about, I don't know. There was a word that came up, and I was like, oh, that was interesting. I go, okay, if I were to double click on nude beach, maybe you mentioned a nude beach in there. What would I find? And then you would share. So anyway, it's super fun because you just go down this rabbit hole of googling Michael, and fill in the blank and then double clicking whatever's interesting to you? So if y'all are like, I don't know what to ask on first dates, play the Google game. Play the Google game. It's a fun game, but yeah. Yeah.
I'm just, like, feeling my way through it. Yeah. I'm a wild card, and it's so fun.
[00:48:10] Speaker A: Yeah, I love that.
[00:48:12] Speaker C: Yeah. What about you, Matt?
[00:48:14] Speaker A: I love me a wild card on a date. Actually, if somebody were a wild card and just, like, be all over the place, because I find that really fascinating. And, like, I'm an excellent tracker. I can track people. Like, no matter where they go, I'm tracking them. And, like, if somebody's being wild and being. Throwing me all over, it's like, I find it, like, really exciting.
[00:48:30] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:48:33] Speaker A: So for me, okay, I kind of gauged it in levels. So if I'm going on a date, whether it's a. If it's a friend date for casual dating or for sex, okay. It's gonna be very different. The questions that I'm gonna be asking versus if I'm going into commitment and looking for that. So. But again, value alignment is key for all of them. So all my questions are governed based off of looking for value. So, again, if I'm going to have sex with somebody, is their sexual alignment. I want to look at if our values align based off of how we seek pleasure.
Casual dating, same thing. Looking at, you know, things that. What would be good things for casual dating?
Interests. Right. If I'm casually dating somebody, it's like, what are we going to do for fun? Hobbies like that. Let's explore that. Right. So. But I wrote some down. So if I'm looking for value alignment, I'm looking in these major categories. So sexual, political, lifestyle, relationship structure, interests, and healthy differences, I think are important. So, like, asking questions to see if there's differences. Would I want to date my. My clone? No. I would want to date somebody that's interested in different things than me, that can expose me to new things. Right.
So I wrote down these questions.
What do you enjoy sexually? And do you have preferred positions that you enjoy? Right. I think that's important as gay men to understand that.
What do you enjoy doing for fun or in your spare time?
What are your interests or hobbies?
What are you passionate about? Passion. I love passion. I'm really drawn to passion. When somebody just can't stop talking about something that they love, I'm like, I just can feel it, and I can feel their heart exploding, and it feels really good.
What do you align to politically and again, on the first date, I wouldn't want to know any more than that. I would just want to know, are you left, are you right, are you middle, are you nonpartisan? Where do you align? I don't think any more than that is really important on a first date. But if, like, if I'm dating to find if someone's a good match for me, and let's say I'm hardcore left and this person's hardcore right, it's going to be very challenging to be in a relationship with somebody like that, possibly. Um, so I'd want to know that sooner than later. Um, what are you seeking from a relationship?
What are your pet peeves?
What makes you angry about the world? I would want to know, do you want kids, do you want to get married, and what do you do for a living? These are all really important questions, and you can throw them in the category that you would want to know. Obviously, if it's a casual dating or sex, I'm not going to know or care if you want to get married or have kids. But if I'm dating you to get into a relationship and I don't want kids, and I know I don't want kids, um, I don't think it would work to date somebody that wants kids.
[00:51:20] Speaker B: So what if I say I'm gonna get you pregnant after this call?
[00:51:24] Speaker A: I'd be like, we'll try.
[00:51:27] Speaker C: Put a baby in me. Yeah, put a baby. I've always wanted to say that to a guy. Like, right before we're about, like, I'm in, I'm in missionary, and I'm like, put a baby in me. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
Matt, I love your answers to like, or I love your questions, rather. And what's so interesting about your questions? Like, I'm not, I'm not flirting, I promise.
But I love your questions. They're like, they're such a turn on because they're so, they're so specific and what I'm noticing about myself, and this is why I said, like, I'm a verse bottom. Because I feel like I'm probably going to offend some people maybe by saying this. I don't know. I'm sorry if I offend you, but, like, I'm. Yeah, like, I. I notice I'm quite feminine in my nature, I guess. Like, I'm noticing as I'm listening to the different answers to the questions, I'm very much about, like, flow and spontaneity and intuition and all of this. And your questions were so specific, and I was like, I like this. It's hot. Yeah, I'm here for it. So, yeah, I'm just picking up. I'm clocking that I'm like my leading energy is more like feminine and flowy and I'm more drawn to and attracted to people who are like some looseness, but I like that specificity, so to speak. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:52:57] Speaker A: That's really interesting. It's a good reflection for me because I tend to lead with more my masculine energy in dating. And part of it is that I'm actually attracted to that. So this is what I've done in most of my dating. So I'm. But I'm sometimes I'm leading with my masculine because I don't feel safe. So I have to stay in my masculine. So it's, I want to find safety and trust so I can land into my feminine because I think I am more innately in relationships, more in my feminine and I want a man that can hold me in that. So they have to be very transparent and trustworthy and. Right. So I can feel safe and secure to land into my feminine and feel like I'm like, I don't know. It's really interesting. And I haven't found that yet in any of my relationships. I've never found somebody that can contain that or hold that in the masculine energy. So I'm hoping that the work I'm doing now is actually helping me. Like, the internal work I'm doing is helping me find safety within myself so I can land into my feminine and attract the guy that I'm going to be attracted to. Yeah, Michael wants to say something.
[00:53:59] Speaker C: Yes, I do.
[00:54:02] Speaker B: I'm like, I just realized as I'm listening to you guys, I think we had, I think we should have had, like, not a different a conversation before this. I wish we had more time because all of this is great, but I'm dying to know, like, kind of like I said at the beginning, at what point do you allow someone to get to the point where they have a first date with you?
[00:54:21] Speaker A: Where they have what?
[00:54:22] Speaker B: A first date where you can get to the first date. Right. So when I was younger, I was like, someone's like, wanna go date? Like, yep. I just say yes to everything and everyone. Now I just. There's a bigger fiddler there. So by the time somebody gets to the date phase with me, like, I already know a lot of these things. Maybe, or maybe I don't. But I, I think that that would be an interesting conversation is like, what are your criteria? Like, how do you get that filter and where you find, like, you know what? Yes. I will meet you in person. I will give you the time to go on a date with me. That's a good question.
[00:54:52] Speaker C: I think we're kind of covering that in our next conversation.
[00:54:56] Speaker B: I think we will cover it there. Stay tuned. Stay tuned.
[00:55:03] Speaker A: Yeah. I've also gone the other way, too, though, where I've dated guys long distance, and this has happened multiple times to me. So I, like, we're connecting for three months on video chats and on texts and things like that, and then we meet in person, and it's, like, not what we thought it was. It's the opposite. So I don't like to go too long without meeting somebody because that. That in person energy is way different than texting or whatever, so. But I get your point. Like, I think it's good to have, like, vetting through different stages. Right? Yeah.
[00:55:30] Speaker B: I'm sometimes I don't vet at all. Go ahead.
[00:55:33] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:55:33] Speaker C: No, no, please. Yeah.
[00:55:35] Speaker B: But in, like, in one example, a guy I met in. In Mexico in PV, we met at a bar, and I just got a good vibe from him. I just really liked him. I don't know why. And he wanted to hook up that night, and I'm like, you know what? I do want to hook up with you, but also, is it weird if we put a pause of this and we go on a date tomorrow night and I want to go for dinner with you, just you and I, and then if we want to hook up, we can. And he was so far, he's like, oh, my God, that is the best offer I've gotten all week. And I'm like, great. We're just meant to be.
[00:56:03] Speaker C: So.
[00:56:03] Speaker B: Yeah, it really depends.
[00:56:05] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:56:05] Speaker C: I love that. Same Z's. Same Z's. And, like, if we.
Generally speaking, unless they're extenuating circumstances, like, if we haven't met up in person within, I'm gonna say, two weeks, tops. Like, tops. It's. We're not. It's not happening, you know? Yeah. Because I'm just like, I don't want to do this whole texting back and forth thing forever. Like, let's meet ASAP and just, you know, get together, figure out if we want to keep hanging, because I have a whole life to live, you know? And so do you. It's just like, come on, you know? Yeah.
[00:56:43] Speaker B: Love it.
[00:56:44] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:56:46] Speaker A: Okay, let's land the plane here, and we're going to hop into another episode on courting for next week.
Okay. So. Yes. Thank you, guys. For sharing as usual. It's always nice. I feel like I learned about myself even more just from hearing you guys share the so the collaborativeness of these talks. And again, like we're offering these connection circles in the brotherhood now for this reason we can learn so much from each other. So come in. We put you in pods of three and it's a great opportunity for you to learn and grow with your fellow brothers. So come and join us there. The link is in the show notes for that and if you're watching on YouTube, leave some comments. Let us know. Maybe some questions that you would ask on a first date or what makes a first date successful for you podcast. If you're listening to us, please give us a five star rating if you enjoyed what you heard and you got some value out of today's episode and a review. A review is very, very helpful. So for anything more gay mensbrotherhood.com, you can find us there. Much love everybody.
