Falling in Love With The Fantasy

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. Welcome to Gay Men Going Deeper, a podcast by the Gay Men's Brotherhood that showcases raw and real conversations about personal development, mental health, and sexuality from an unapologetically gay perspective. Today, I'm your host. My name is Michael DiIorio. And joining me is Michael Pizzulo. Today we are talking about falling in love with the fantasy. So this could be falling in love with potential that you project onto someone that maybe you're dating or someone that you know. Or it could also be falling in love with the fantasy of the ideal man that does not even exist yet. Either way, this episode is about all those times that we create a fantasy in our minds and then fall in love with that instead of what's real. What we want you to get out of this episode is to recognize when you're chasing the idea of connection instead of the reality of it, so that you can stop seeking perfection and start creating true and real intimacy. So joining me today is our resident WeHo therapist, Michael Pizzulo. Michael's been here a number of times before, but for those of you who have stumbled upon this episode, and it's the first time you're meeting Michael, we'll let Michael go ahead and introduce himself. [00:01:17] Speaker B: Well, thank you for having me back again, as always, I am a gay men's therapist. I'm in West Hollywood, and I also do coaching with gay men internationally. [00:01:27] Speaker A: Amazing. Yeah. So before we jump into the topic, I want to remind everyone that this podcast and YouTube channel are listener and viewer supported. So if you enjoy what we're creating here, you can support us by making a donation to the show using the link in the show notes. Or if you're watching us on YouTube, just go ahead and tap that thanks button to show the community some love. Okay, I start off all of our episodes with a little monologue on why I wanted to do this episode, which we'll also dig into as we get into the questions. But we all have this idea of what love and relationships are supposed to look like, right? Even now, I want you, viewer, listener, to think about this, right? What is in your imagination, in your mind. The right partner and the right life that he has and the right look that he has. And, of course, we have this idea of the right love story, the one that unfolds effortlessly, maybe the one that looks great on Instagram, the one that all of our friends and family love. And this story that we weave is so compelling, it gives us something to hope for and something aspirational to work towards. Sounds nice, but the truth is, this Story is a fantasy. And while there's nothing wrong with imagining what love could look like, it does become dangerous when we get attached to that version, to the story, to the fantasy. Because in doing so, we stop seeing people for who they actually are and start falling in love with a fairy tale that just does not exist. And then what? The worst part of this is, we end up missing out on what we actually truly want, which is real connection and intimacy. Because my friends, many of you, probably know who have been in relationships and have been in love. Real love is not curated. It's messy, it's uncomfortable. It exposes all of the parts of us we don't want to see and we don't want others to see in us. But that's exactly where real connection begins. Not in the fantasy of what it should look like or should be, but in the reality of what it actually is. So, as I said in the beginning, we're looking at this in two different flavors. Michael and I were chatting before we popped on today. One is falling in love with potential. That's when you see what someone could be and how they could be great for you instead of actually seeing them for who they are. Or that perfect boyfriend myth, the illusion that keeps us chasing this ideal man that doesn't actually exist yet. All right, let's start with the first one. Michael falling in love with potential. Why do you think we fall for potential instead of reality? What's behind this? [00:04:14] Speaker B: Well, first of all, I think falling in love with potential is a huge mistake. I think it's a recipe for disappointment. My dad actually told me this, like, years ago, but he said, like, you have to expect people to be who they are. And if you're meeting someone and you're thinking, I kind of, like, know 80% of you, but this other 20%, just throw that away. And then I want to add on a few other things that you don't have yet, but they're going to really be great. For me, I think that is a. A I think it's unkind to the other person because you're not accepting them for just, you know, who they are. They may not want to turn into this person that you have in your head, and also they probably won't. [00:04:53] Speaker A: Y. [00:04:54] Speaker B: So it's just going to be set up for you to ultimately feel disappointed. And. And I don't think it's fair to either person. [00:05:02] Speaker A: Okay, personal question. Have you ever fallen in love with potential? [00:05:05] Speaker B: No. [00:05:06] Speaker A: Okay, well, good for you, because I have like to talk a little bit about that, but I think you know the reason. Well, let's answer this. What would you think is the reason that we do this or that people. [00:05:18] Speaker B: I think there's a few. I think there's a few things. I mean, I think that you mentioned, like, what people ultimately want is, you know, love and connection. I don't know if everyone does. I feel like people want go into relationships for a number of different reasons. Sometimes it really is like, pure unconditional acceptance of me and you. But sometimes it's not. Sometimes it really is like, I have an expectation that you're gonna sort of perform in a certain way and you better do it or I'm not gonna be happy. I mean, they don't say it so directly, but that is baked in. So I always encourage people to think about, do they really plan to accept the person for who they are? [00:05:57] Speaker A: And that's hard because they might say yes because they want it so bad. But the truth of it is, like, well, you're saying yes because you want it so bad, but the reality might be you might not. You might not actually accept that 20% or those parts that maybe are harder to love or harder to accept for that person. [00:06:14] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think we all know this, that people tend to be pretty predictable and consistent. I mean, I wouldn't want someone to expect me to change in some sort of fundamental way that is just not true to who I am. [00:06:27] Speaker A: Yeah. I think at some point, you know, when I've done this, and I'll speak to my personal example a bit more, but when I've done this myself and when I've seen other people do this, it's so much easier to spot this when other people do it harder when you're doing it yourself. But at any rate, at some point, you stop seeing the person for who they are and you start falling for the feeling that we want them to give us, if that makes sense. So if I want to feel loved and secure and taken care of, for example, I start projecting that need onto them because they might give it to me some of the time or almost. And then I'm just like, I'm just going to fill in that. I'm going to fill in that story with the rest of it. Okay. And that's the difference, I think, between hope and attachment. It's okay to have this vision, to have, like, okay, I would like to be in a relationship that feels like this, but just don't. Don't project that onto somebody who actually exists and maybe isn't willing to give you that. [00:07:19] Speaker B: Yes, No, I agree. I agree. And I think we see that a lot, kind of with, like, the trophy boyfriend trope of you see people who they so desperately want, you know, the perfect guy, you know, who looks good or whatever. And it's not just about attraction, which I think is fine, but it's about the value that I get from having you next to me. [00:07:42] Speaker A: We'll talk more about that in the next bit. But yes, that perfect boyfriend. Yeah. Yeah, 100%. How does someone know if they're falling in love with potential? [00:07:50] Speaker B: Well, I guess it depends. Like, if they. If it hasn't caused a conflict yet, then they might not be aware of it. But at a certain point, it's going to be grading because what they're falling in love with is not the person, you know, not the authentic person. So they're going to start to begin to experience disappointment and frustration and feeling let down. So I think that's when either they'll start to get curious about what's going on and either come, you know, figure it out on their own, or they'll reach out for someone, some guidance and some help. [00:08:21] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. I would agree. And it sounds something like, he's not doing this or he's not. Like he's misbehaving. I'm using air quotes for those who can't see me. And in your mind, you think he's misbehaving because you have an idea for how this man, this person should behave, should be treating you, should be the things he should be saying and doing. And then all of a sudden, when there. That gap gets exposed in your own mind, it's like, well, wait a minute. Like, is he actually misbehaving? Or are you. Have you. Do you have an expectation of him that he's just not interested in meeting? Right. That's the question you have to ask. [00:08:52] Speaker B: Yes, I would agree. I would agree. [00:08:53] Speaker A: So for anyone out there thinking about their partner or someone that they. They are with or dating or are interested in, you know, if you find them disappointing you, as Michael had said, or in some way not living up to your idea, I want you to ask yourself, where did that idea come from? Did he agree to this? Or is this something that you just are projecting onto him? [00:09:15] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, it's like, you know, if you date someone who's like, an artist, but you kind of want them to put that away and get a real job. [00:09:23] Speaker A: Yes. [00:09:24] Speaker B: And you figure someday they'll let this creative stuff go at some point and they'll, you know, become A lawyer. And then 10 years into it, they're still doing gigs and it's not stable and stuff like, you know, they probably were pretty upfront with you from the beginning that this is who they are. You wanted them to evolve into something else, which is possible, but that was more like the potential than the real person. [00:09:45] Speaker A: A hundred percent. That's such a good example. I love. I love these tangible examples like that. Or even if they didn't say that upfront, you just assumed that they would. And that's. That's your own. That's on you for assuming and not bringing it up and saying, hey, you know, is this, you know, painting thing or this art career something that you want to do for the rest of your life? Like, you have to ask those questions so that when they say, yes, absolutely, I'm not ever going to give this up, at least then, you know, and then if you still choose to kind of gloss over that, which some people do, they gloss over these things and like, oh, yeah, no, he'll. He'll change his mind. That's 100% on you. [00:10:15] Speaker B: Agreed. [00:10:15] Speaker A: Okay, let me tell you guys a personal story. I've shared this a little bit before on the podcast, and I won't name names because you might be listening, but I was in a situationship last year, and, you know, when I was thinking about this topic, when I brought it to Michael, I was thinking about my. My version of this. And when I asked myself, why did I do this? Why did I fall in love with potential? The answer that I gave myself was that it's hard enough to meet people, meet guys. For me, I'm single. And then when I do, you get really excited, like, oh, my gosh, I'm attracted to him. He's this and he's this and he's this and he's that. He's all these great things, and we have a great time together, and so it's really easy to get excited about it, and I think that's fine. But somewhere in that excitement, now that I'm looking at it, now that I'm on the outside looking in. Right. I just wanted so badly to be loved and to love. I wanted it so bad. I wanted this thing to work out so much, and it just felt so close and so real. And I love being in a relationship. And, you know, I. I do. I. I do have so many ideas of what love and relationship should look like and be. But what I've learned is real love happens when you stop needing that person to live up to. The expectations in your imagination and you start seeing them for who they actually are. Even if that is disappointing to you. Even if that, even if that creates, you know, pain within you. Because like loving a fantasy, I don't think is. Is real, genuine love. I think it's just a made up fairy tale. And so you, you can love somebody and choose not to be with them. It's kind of what I've learned. Like, I can love this person even though we're, we're not together. And that. That story didn't end up way I wanted it to go. You can still find love in the reality of who he is. [00:12:04] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah. So you feel like you were eager to make something happen and it kind of not blinded you, but it sort of colored your vision a little bit. [00:12:16] Speaker A: Yeah. The story is we were friends with benefits, which is great. But I, I caught feels I, I fell for him. I've told this story before, and when I came out and said, hey, listen, I've fallen for you. I want to, I want to pursue a relationship with you, he was just like, no, I don't want that. I was never interested in that. Not interested in that now. But in my mind I'm like, but, but, but we're, we're, we're so close. Like, this is it. Don't you feel what I feel? Don't you feel these great things? And he's like, yes, I do. But he still, be that as it may, didn't. Didn't want to be in a relationship. So I created a story in my mind. I'm like, well, if I just show him how great this could be, he'll change his mind and he'll, he'll see that this is already so good. And so I imagined a ver version of him that did want a relationship and I got very attached to that version. And I fell in love with that version of him who would be like, oh, of course I want to be in a relationship with you, Michael, but that's on me. That was my error. I convinced myself that this was. That he was going to change his mind. Right. Because I wanted so badly to have that relationship with him. And I was so attached to the idea of what could be if only he was willing to want that same thing. And, and that's the thing about fantasy. It, it. And that's how you know this is a great. For anyone other who might be in a similar situation, it relies on someone else changing. That's how you know you're in fantasy land because it relies on them Being something different than they actually are. And reality is the opposite. It's saying, here's the truth of the person in front of you. Can you actually love him? [00:13:44] Speaker B: Very well said. I like that. [00:13:46] Speaker A: Yeah. I bared my soul. And that's the thing. I mean, if it could happen to me, I feel like, you know, and I'm pretty. Pretty good at keeping reality from fantasy, but, I mean, chuckle does this. That I just wanted it so bad. And I think a lot of guys out there do want things so bad that they're willing to gloss over important details. [00:14:04] Speaker B: Sure. I mean, I think, like, every, you know, famous song is about heartbreak or love or I wanted someone, they didn't want me. I mean, it's like. It's such a common, you know, human experience. [00:14:16] Speaker A: Yeah. So here's a question for you. How can we tell the difference between, you know, just naturally getting excited about someone you meet, like I did, and then getting into that mental storytelling? [00:14:27] Speaker B: Well, when. When. So when he said directly to you, I'm. I'm not interested in, you know, taking this to a different level. [00:14:34] Speaker A: Why? [00:14:35] Speaker B: Why? I guess. What. What part of you felt like, I can still make this work? [00:14:40] Speaker A: Well, we were friends with benefits to begin with, but I didn't say anything about falling for him for a while because I was just like, well, clearly this is moving in a direction that is. I mean, it's very obvious. That's what I thought. That we're, like. We're clearly in a relationship now. We just got to just say the words. So when he. When he did. When I did say that, and he. He was like, no, no, no, that's not what I want. I thought, yeah, you're like, you'll change your mind. I don't. Like, you're. You're mistaken. Let me. Let me. Let me. Let me show you. Let me teach you that kind of thing. Because, like, we were already in my mind. And that's the thing in the minds of my friends who are, like, seeing this, like, oh, you guys are basically a couple. I'm like, yeah, aren't we? But that's just not. Not what he wanted. So I thought that his mind would change or I thought that I could show him. I thought that. I just thought that it would change somehow. [00:15:30] Speaker B: What would you have to. And by the way, I commend you for being so direct and bold and just saying, like, this is where I'm at. You know, that takes a. People don't do that as much these days. And I think it's such a good thing but when. What. I guess, what part of you still felt like, I can change someone's mind? Like, what would you have to do to change someone's mind? [00:15:50] Speaker A: Because I'm so charming and compelling. I think because I. I assumed that he felt what I felt. And, you know, I don't fall easily. I can be discerning with the people that I let in. I've said that before as well here. I'm very picky with who I give my time and energy to in my social circle. And so when I meet someone like that who feels. It feels very easy to be with and whatnot. I just assumed he was the same way. And that was another mistake of mine. So notice here I'm making a lot of assumptions, guys. And that was my. My fatal flaw to him. What I thought was very special. He was like, yeah, this is nice, but like, okay, it's. It's not as special. He's not creating the story that I created. That this is this big, special bond between us. [00:16:31] Speaker B: Well, I think. I mean, what you're describing, I think is something I'm sure lots of people have gone through. And it makes total sense to me that you're it. It's developing a certain way that feels very compelling to you. It seems like he probably have a parallel experience. So I don't. None of that sounds like a mistake to me at all. The part that catches my attention, though, is when you. When you said how you felt and he told you something different of why you felt, part of you felt like, I can change the reality or I can move mountains or. [00:17:01] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:17:01] Speaker B: You know, that sort of thing. [00:17:03] Speaker A: Yeah. I don't know. I think. I just can't. I thought that it just. He's. He's. It'll take him time, but he'll get there. I think a lot of people do this. I think a lot of people gloss over things that they'll say. Oh, yeah, they'll get there. Like, it's falling in love with potential. That's exactly what I did there. That. The potential that he would suddenly want a relationship. And in my mind, like, who doesn't want a relationship? This is great. This is so nice. Think of all the things we do and everything's so, so good. But that's just it. I projected my own ideas and. And what it should look like onto him, and I assumed he was feeling the same way. He just wasn't. He loved it. It was great, but just. He just wanted to keep it casual and not turn it into something more. And I just thought okay, well, he'll change his mind. But I. I bet a lot of people do that. I know you don't, Michael, but I'm sure a lot of our listeners out there, maybe you've had clients who do that. So. [00:17:53] Speaker B: Well, it's. It's a lot of work to change someone's mind, to be that persuasive. Yeah, it's. That's. That's job. [00:18:01] Speaker A: Yeah, well, it didn't work. At least not for me. But, yeah, you know, the question was, I think it's okay for people to get excited when they meet somebody. I think that's all fine. I don't think I did anything wrong there. But, you know, how can we make sure that we're not going over into fantasy land and say, okay, yeah, there's this great guy. I'm attracted to him. We get along really well. You know, there's potential here for something more. But I'm taking it slow. I'm taking a measured approach. That would have been the right thing to do. Instead of getting swept up in my fantasy of, oh, my gosh, we're gonna end up living together and, you know, this, you know, white picket fence fantasy I made up. [00:18:39] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, but I also think, like, if you're gonna. If you're gonna put yourself out there, you know, you're gonna get knocked down a few times, you know, like with relationships and dating and hooking up and stuff, like, no matter how careful or thoughtful you are, like, it's. It's gonna be messy, you know, but if you don't try, you don't. You're never gonna get the reward. [00:18:59] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay, enough about me. Moral of this story, guys, is in terms of your checklist for a partner, rule number one should be only be interested in people who are interested in you in the same and want the same things as you. That should be rule number one. If they don't want what you want or they're not interested in you, it's a no. Move along. Okay. Sometimes that's the hardest rules. It sounds like the most simple. If they're not available, if they're not interested, stop chasing. You're not going to change their mind. Okay, let's pause here for our audience to check in with us. Tell us in the comments, if you're watching us on YouTube, have you ever fallen in love with the fantasy? And if so, tell us what you learned from that. I can't be the only one. So you guys tell me what you guys have done out there. And if you're enjoying the conversation that we're having here, I want to invite you guys to our connection circles. Every month in the Gay Men's Brotherhood, we host two connection circles, one hosted by me, one hosted by Matt. And we facilitate small, intimate conversations about the topics that we discuss here on the podcast. But in a connection circle, we want to hear from you guys, our viewers and listeners. And what happens is we come into the main room, Matt and I will do a little intro, we'll go over the ground rules, and then we'll put you guys in breakout rooms of three. So you have small meeting rooms where you can talk about the topics that we have here, just like we do on the podcast. So if you're interested in a connection circle, please go to Gay Men's Brotherhood and check out our events section to RSVP or make sure you get on our email list. And we'll email you the details and the registration and all the zoom links right to your inbox. Okay, part two. The perfect boyfriend. The perfect boyfriend myth. This is the impossible standards that so many guys hold onto in their quest to find an ideal man. Michael, what's this about? [00:20:44] Speaker B: Well, okay, there's a few different things, I think. First and foremost, I do feel like it's an avoidance strategy that if you are crafting something that is so not only unattainable, unrealistic, just, you know, one in a billion chance, it, you know, it gives you a lot of room to avoid, that you don't actually have to put yourself out there or to be vulnerable or to do much, because you're going to turn pretty much everyone down before they even, you know, get anywhere near you. So I do think a lot of people that say that they're trying to find a relationship are actually avoiding one by creating this, some sort of fantasy that they want to. The ideal that is just not even a person. So that's. That's. That's one thing. The other thing is I think that a lot of gay men, because. And I think this is going to change a lot with the generations, but because they grew up in a time where having a relationship wasn't possible, that they didn't go through those, you know, early stages of dating in high school and breaking up and, you know, kind of experimenting. So having a relationship became this, like, golden prize that was just, you know, maybe someday it just like this off of the, you know, distant. Not distant. Yeah, off in the distant future concept. And I think that that can create a paradigm about relationships where they become almost like otherworldly or just like, you know, gems from a different planet. Like, so sacred, so special that they almost don't know what to do with them. [00:22:17] Speaker A: Okay. [00:22:17] Speaker B: If any of that makes sense. [00:22:18] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, it does. What are some, maybe standards or expectations or checklist items that people have that you think are too. Too much? [00:22:27] Speaker B: Oh, there's a lot. [00:22:31] Speaker A: Give us some of your favorites. [00:22:33] Speaker B: Well, I think, you know, to our earlier point, I think truly not accepting people for who they are is probably the biggest mistake. I think the other one, too is expecting people, you know, some guy to, like, quote, unquote, fix you. Meaning that I have a lot of, you know, we all have insecurities, but that I'm going to find someone who's going to compensate for all of those, you know, like, if I don't feel good enough, well, I have this shiny, perfect boyfriend, so now I must be that kind of thing. I think that's a setup for. For failure that a lot of gay men fall into. [00:23:03] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. You know, people will tell me, this is the kind of man I'm looking for. And we'll go through and, hey, you know, these all make sense. But sometimes there are things that I'm like, wow, that's either very specific or that's going to be very hard to find. And if it's something like, you know, they have to be exactly this. This is the exact height I'm looking for. And I'm like, well, what if they're like an inch shorter, like an inch taller? Is it really that big of a deal? But some people are really drawn to this and they'll put it under the guise of, oh, this is what I'm manifesting. I'm like, that's interesting. So what are your. What are your thoughts on that? Like, you know, the law of attraction, manifestation will say, you need to really be clear and specific about what it is you want and put that out into the universe so that you will then manifest it. But I get that on the one hand, but on the other hand, being so specific, I think is actually gonna do you harm. I think. [00:23:55] Speaker B: I think those paradigms in my mind conflict with each other because I actually do agree that there is something like, you know, spiritual about finding your. Your partner or your soulmate or whatever that you could, if you have any kind of spiritual practice or believe in, you know, God or whatever that is to you, I do think that that can be part of it. Right. It's like believing that there is going to be a person that I'm going to. I'm meant to meet Or I meant to build a life with and that sort of thing. So I do. I do. I can get behind that idea. But then that, to me, that idea is much more about, like, acceptance and surrender and trusting that it will happen when it happens, rather than having the specific criteria that I demand that this person fits. Like, those ideas, to me seem like they conflict. [00:24:38] Speaker A: Yeah. That's such a good way of putting it. It's like you're putting in your order. Yeah. At a restaurant, instead of. Instead of what you had said, which is trust, surrender, and being open to whatever the universe throws at you. Yeah. [00:24:50] Speaker B: And I think that those are two different approaches to take. You know, you could make an argument for each of them, I guess, but if someone's trying to do both at the same time, that doesn't make any sense to me. [00:25:00] Speaker A: Yeah. You know, I think people search for that perfect relationship, and. And especially if you really want one really bad or you haven't been in one, you know, like you said, it's very aspirational. So we want the perfect relationship. We want those Instagramable moments where, you know, you're kissing and showing everyone how in love you are, yada, yada, yada, matching outfits, all that. And for a lot of people, that relationship then becomes like a social showpiece. Like this thing I can show the world. It's this badge of honor that, as you said earlier, reflects like the. I am worthy. I am desirable. Look at. Look at me. Someone chose me. And that's what it is. I think that, going back to that trophy boyfriend bit, when I think about the people who just yearn for that trophy boyfriend, it's a craving for validation, not for connection. And it. The underlying. What they're saying is, look at me. I'm desirable. Look. Look at me. Someone chose me. Look. Look at me. I'm enough. But relationships aren't on Instagram. They're real. They're behind closed doors. They're not aesthetic, they're emotional. And so some people end up performing to get the love they think that they need to have instead of truly experiencing the messiness of love. [00:26:15] Speaker B: Yes, I agree. I 100% agree also to, you know, having a. You know, when you see someone's relationship on social media, if they're my friend, I'm like, I'm happy for them and whatever, but I have no idea what's going on with them that day. Maybe they just got into a fight. Maybe. Maybe they're getting along great, but one of them is super depressed about something. I don't know. Like, we have no. You have no idea what's really going on with them. [00:26:38] Speaker A: I love watching just people, like, watching behind the scenes. People take photos for Instagram or whatever. And couples especially, because they'll be like, yelling at each other, like, do this. Get in this position. Get the lighting right. And then the camera will be like, oh, my God. And then they smile like, we're so in love. And I'm like. And then I'll see the post and I'm like, girl, you are just yelling at each other two seconds before. Not saying, all couples are like this, guys. But there are certainly some that are very performative about these relationships. And I think these people are not looking for love. They're just looking for proof that they're good enough. [00:27:08] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree. I agree. And. And. And it's proof to who? I. I don't know. Like, it's. [00:27:13] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:27:14] Speaker B: I don't know who's going along with this idea, but. Yeah. No, I know what you mean. I do. [00:27:17] Speaker A: Yeah. So when you were. How long have you been with your partner? [00:27:22] Speaker B: Almost ten years. [00:27:23] Speaker A: Okay, so let's go back when you were dating and looking. What. What were your criteria for the man that you wanted to date and be with? [00:27:31] Speaker B: I had no criteria. I wasn't looking. Yeah, we just happened to meet. I had zero intention of getting into a relationship or I wasn't looking for one or none of that. [00:27:44] Speaker A: And what happened? Tell us. [00:27:46] Speaker B: We just met and it just worked. Yeah, I had. I had zero. I never. I never was the guy who was like, I can't wait to get a boyfriend. Like, I wasn't super interested in the relationship thing, at least in my head, you know, So I don't know. I wasn't looking, but I also wasn't eager, so maybe that helped. But I also just feel like, you know, every relationship is different. It's not for me to tell anyone. Like, what works for me might not work for you, might not work for the next person. You know, there are some universal rules, like don't, you know, hit each other and whatnot. But, like, other than that, I mean, it really depends on the two people. [00:28:22] Speaker A: Do you see guys who do want that relationship so badly? And they are. It's something that, like, is one of the top things in their mind all the time. Like, I want to find love, I want to find a relationship. Do you have those people? [00:28:34] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And I. This is a very light observation, but I feel like the couples that I know, both gay and straight, who are successful, really have like a self acceptance about who they are. They present themselves to people authentically good and the bad, and also to the person that they're with. They accept them for who they are. They really aren't expecting them to level up or to, you know, get better or lose weight or whatever it is. They really accept them just as they are, 100%. [00:29:05] Speaker A: I have found that in my relationships as well. And I think that that fantasy of the. The perfect partner, the perfect person, will keep you very dissatisfied in your relationships and perhaps single as well. Because as soon as one thing goes wrong, as soon as, you know it's the fifth date and, you know, you start to see the. The cracks behind the armor, which everybody has, of course, you're like, oh, no, sorry, it's not gonna work out. There's cracks here, and then move on to the next, searching for perfection. And I just think it's so sad because if you just of course, you know, like Michael said, there's non negotiables, of course. But if you can just accept that people, as you yourself, are flawed and learn to accept those flaws and maybe eventually one day love them like it's possible. Right. I think of the couples that I know, again, both straight and gay, exactly as you said, who've been together for the longest time, and they'll probably say the same thing. It's like, there are things about this man that I cannot stand, but I love him so deep, so hard regardless. And that's the skill. [00:30:00] Speaker B: Yeah, we know. I wouldn't say that. There's like, there's things like I can't stand about my husband, but it's more like I don't expect him to be someone different than who he is. [00:30:09] Speaker A: Right. [00:30:09] Speaker B: You know, just like, I wouldn't want that of me. Like, you know, I have a ways of being in the world and my personality, I wouldn't want someone to be like, you know, kind of looking at their watch, waiting for me to change. [00:30:21] Speaker A: Yeah. When I work with couples, or even just guys who are. Who are getting coached on their relationship, I'll ask, has he ever demonstrated any reason to be different? And as I know it's like, have you asked and talked about it and has he have changed any of his behaviors or these things? No. It's like, well, then you're. You have a choice here. Either accept the man who you have or walk away. That's really the only two logical options you have. And it's sometimes really hard to accept. But I think that's the work. Right. Because when you can, and it doesn't mean you need to love that thing, but when you can at least accept him and stop expecting him to be this version that you want him to be, I think that's when there's so much like, there's another dimension of love to be found there, another dimension of intimacy to be found there, because you also don't have to be perfect. And that's the beautiful thing about love and relationships, at least in my opinion, is I get to show up as me on my worst day, and my partner loves me, and he gets to show up as him on his worst day. And we love each other. [00:31:16] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. When it. I guess it makes me wonder, like, do people want a boyfriend or do they want a robot? You know, we all. This person who has no flaws and is perfect, it doesn't exist. [00:31:27] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, I agree. You know, I. I'm single now, and I'm. I'm looking, I'm out there. I'm on. I'm on apps and whatnot, and I used to have, you know, my ideas of what I want in a relationship, and I still do. I still have a very clear idea for what I want my relationship to be. But ultimately, I have two criteria now, and they're very simple. When I'm with this person, does my. Do I feel calm and comfortable? One, do I just feel good when I'm around them? Calm and comfortable? I don't need to feel anything else besides calm and comfortable? Two, am I attracted to them? Do I want to touch them? Is there a part of me that, like, wants to get in there and if those two criteria are met, I'm good to go? Then it's a yes. It's a green light. I keep going. Does he have to have the perfect job? No. You know, does he have to look the certain way? As long as I'm attracted to him, that's all that matters. Whether he's tall or short or muscular or not or, you know, however old he is, am I attracted to him, period? And do I like the way I feel when I'm around him? That's it. [00:32:26] Speaker B: I like it. [00:32:27] Speaker A: Makes things a lot simpler. Michael, are we telling people to settle for less? [00:32:31] Speaker B: No. Settle for less. [00:32:32] Speaker A: Yeah. So if we. If someone has a list of, you know, 10, 20 criteria and we're saying, you know, narrow that down or. Or don't have so many criteria. Don't. Don't have such high, lofty expectations, are we telling them to settle for less? [00:32:49] Speaker B: No, I think what we're saying is that you could have whatever criteria you Have. But don't expect people to conform to your criteria. If they meet it, great. But if they don't, they probably will never. [00:33:03] Speaker A: Yeah, I also see this in how people meet. Like, they will be. They'll say, oh, no, I don't want to meet somebody in this way or at this place or, you know, like, they. They have to have this idea of how they should meet. We need to meet, you know, at a bar. We need to meet at. At this certain online. Or we. We can't meet on that app. We have to meet on this app. Like, it can't be a grinder. It has to be hinge. It can't be at a bathhouse. It has to be, like, all these ideas of how this person is going to show up in your life and, you know, the universe surprises you. You can meet somebody literally anywhere in a way that is the most unexpected. If you just let go of all of these ideas of how the right way to meet somebody is. That's another flavor of this. I see. [00:33:43] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree. I agree. I mean, what does it matter how you meet if they're great? [00:33:48] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:33:49] Speaker B: Who cares? [00:33:50] Speaker A: Yeah. What. What would you look for? Like, if you were single now and you are out there dating, what. What would be some of the criteria you'd have that you'd want to hold on to? [00:33:58] Speaker B: I honestly don't know. I'm so far removed from all that that it's like, it's kind of hard to even put myself there. But I don't know. I mean, I've always been someone, you know, despite all kinds of things I struggle with in life, like, who's been very sure of who I am. And I don't ever feel the need to, like, bend to other people or to get them to like me. So I don't really think I have to think so concretely about what I want. I just kind of know it. Even with friends, like, if I meet someone and I like them, I'll just be their friend. And if I don't like them, I'll just kind of drift away. I don't have to think too much about it. That makes sense. [00:34:40] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. What. What advice would you give someone out there who's maybe listening to this and they're single and they're looking and they have their list. They have their checklist of things that they're looking for as they're looking at that list. How. What advice would you give them to, like, kind of audit that? What should they be looking for? Is it too much? [00:34:55] Speaker B: Well, I think you know, if you're, if you have a criteria list and you've been holding onto it for a long time and you're not finding anyone, then maybe you want to reexamine the criteria. If it is, you know, reasonable and you are getting hits, I guess then that could be fine. And then, you know, you could also think too about like your ability to discern, you know, can you tell if someone meets your criteria or you was someone who clearly is not interested or is not right for you, but you're still pursuing it anyway. So. Yeah, I think it would depend on the person. [00:35:27] Speaker A: Yeah. And how do we go from chasing if someone is. They're saying, oh yeah, shit, they're calling me out, I am chasing this ideal perfection. How can they shift from doing this in a way that's a bit more organic and a bit more real? [00:35:43] Speaker B: If they're chasing perfection. [00:35:45] Speaker A: Yeah. If they find that what we're saying is ringing true for them and they're like, oh shit, maybe I'm a little bit perfectionistic about this. How can they shift to being more organic? [00:35:52] Speaker B: I would say that they already are because what they're chasing is real. So there's no there there. [00:35:59] Speaker A: Okay, but what advice would you give them to do to shift that into being a little bit more open minded and more real? [00:36:06] Speaker B: I guess I would be curious, like why they're chasing perfection in the first place. Where did they get this idea from? What is perfection? Yeah, I guess I want to know more about them and what that means to them. What do they think they're going to experience when they get this quote unquote perfection? [00:36:22] Speaker A: I'm willing to bet it's what we had said, right. Which is the worthiness and that feeling of I am enough and I am desirable and I am lovable. Because I think that's, that's what I've seen is when that's there in a very high concentration of like needing it to be just so. And that trophy boyfriend, it's always coming from a place of at the very core, not enoughness, like insecurity, inadequacy. [00:36:49] Speaker B: Right. [00:36:50] Speaker A: That's my, that's my two cents. I don't know, I'm not speaking for everyone, but that's what I've seen as a pattern in the, in the clients I've had who have that. It's goes back to a core of, you know, what's that line in the movie? You complete me like that, that I am not whole. That. That's the vibe that I've seen as the Pattern. [00:37:06] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah. I don't think that's a healthy mindset to start with. And I think a lot of, I mean, people I know who are in very successful relationships, they'll tell you, like, it's, it's amazing. It's like the best thing you can have, truly. Like, I don't want to downplay it and act like, oh, it's relationships, who cares? Like, I think it's one of the best things life has to offer. But you will find though, that even when you get into a relationship so fulfilling and so healthy and so great that you're still, are. You still struggle with things. Like, the other person doesn't fix all of it. You have someone to support you. And it does help a lot, don't get me wrong. But, you know, all of your inner battles are still, still come with you. [00:37:43] Speaker A: Yeah. And what's worse is you can't escape them when you're by yourself. You can conveniently ignore them, but other people will just, especially your partner will bring that shit up. Like, you'll just rub up in ways where it will bring up your insecurities and bring up where you don't communicate well and bring up maybe where you hide instead of have hard conversations. Like, it'll make you a better communicator in so many ways. But if you're not ready to do that work, then you're going to. You know, you had, say at the very top of the episode, Michael, you talked about avoidance and this is maybe an avoidance strategy. I think you're onto something with that. Tell us more. [00:38:14] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. No, I mean, a lot of people, I think, who say that they're looking for a relationship are doing everything they can to avoid one. [00:38:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:38:20] Speaker B: Literally everything they can by creating unrealistic criteria or whatever. Whatever it is. So that is something that sometimes I'll bring to someone's attention of. It doesn't sound like you really want a relationship. It just sounds like you're. You're saying those words. It's like me saying I want to wake up at 5am to go to a workout class tomorrow. Like, I don't, but I could say that. But I truly will do anything to avoid that. [00:38:42] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think speaks to how they think it will make them feel. So I think having this kind of a partner by my side will make me feel whatever. Fill in the blank, what it is for you. And then you're trying to solve an internal problem with a external person and it's just not fair. It's not fair to them. And it's not going to work. [00:39:03] Speaker B: Right, Right. And I don't even. I mean, some people, I really don't even know if they even full, like, full fully believe that that's even going to happen. They're just sort of. I don't know if they're just like. They're supposed to say they want a relationship or they're. So it's like we're all supposed to want it or. I'm not sure. [00:39:21] Speaker A: But yeah, I've been in a few. I've been very lucky to have a few amazing relationships in my life. And the. The best ones have been the ones that have been messy. And, you know, where I. There have been things about that person that might be hard to love. And then the capacity that I have built within myself to learn to love that, it has just made me more love being as a person. And that is the beautiful thing. Like the messy parts of you and your baggage and your flaws and even just the way you do things that annoy me sometimes, like, if you can still look at that person and love them, that just means your capacity to love has grown, which is a beautiful thing. [00:40:05] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, I don't. [00:40:08] Speaker A: I don't. [00:40:08] Speaker B: The. The idea that anyone doesn't come with flaws, I don't know where that would come from. [00:40:13] Speaker A: Don't you see this a lot in. In the gay world, though? Like, this, this. This perfectionistic, like, everything. Like, the body has to be perfect and your clothes have to be perfect and your boyfriend has to be perfect and your life has to be perfect. There's so many guys that subscribe to this perfection. Like, things have to be just polished and beautiful all the time, including your relationship. [00:40:32] Speaker B: I do know what you're talking about, and I see people do that. I just, like, I have no idea what they're talking about. It's like they're telling me about, I don't know, some sort of religion I've never heard of before. Like, I don't know what that. I don't know what that means. That just because I look good and put on a nice outfit that I'm somehow like the most worthy person on the planet and my life is perfect. Like, it's like my house is on fire and you're telling me to go make an omelette and that's gonna fix it. Like, I don't know how the. I don't know how the two things correlate. [00:41:01] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't think it makes logical sense, but I think still, nonetheless, people do kind of. Have that mindset of, like, the more. The more perfect my relationship is, or the more perfect this man is, the more perfect I am, the more lovable I am. That's it. That's. That's. That's what it equates to, is I'll be lovable when. I'll be lovable. If. If I go to the gym more, I'll be more lovable. If I make more money, I'll be more lovable. It's. It's all based on that, I think. [00:41:26] Speaker B: Yeah. It just. It feels very, like. I don't know. I don't. I don't. When I encounter someone who's so. Who's so perfectionistic or whatever, it doesn't drop me in. It doesn't feel endearing. It feels like a. It feels like a wall. It feels like, don't get close to me. [00:41:44] Speaker A: Right. [00:41:45] Speaker B: Just stay over there and agree that I'm doing things right. And I'm. And I. I kind of feel like. Okay. Like, I don't know if you're doing anything right or wrong, because I don't really know anything, because you're. You won't really show me. You're not really. You're not really revealing a whole lot. So I don't know. I mean. [00:42:00] Speaker A: And that's the paradox, I think. I think people want the vulnerability. They want to see the flaws. That makes them human. It makes them more relatable, makes them more desirable, truly. That's the reality of it. And yet in their own minds, they're like, oh, no, but I can't be that way. I can't be flawed or vulnerable. You can be flawed and vulnerable. That makes you great and beautiful and human, but I can't do that. And I think that's the paradox that people find themselves in. And it's actually exactly as you said. The more we reveal ourselves, truly, and be vulnerable and show those imperfections, the more relatable and human and I think, likable that you are. And as the viewers and listeners are listening to this, you could probably think the same thing. When you meet someone who's too perfect and too polished, it's not interesting. It's not boring. I think a lot of people would agree with that. [00:42:44] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:42:45] Speaker A: When I. [00:42:45] Speaker B: And I also feel like, you know, the more authentic you are with someone and the more vulnerable, it doesn't necessarily mean they're gonna like it, but you're giving them a chance. You know, if I get to know someone, then I'm like, oh, I like this, Or. Or I don't. And that's. That's fine, too. But if you give nothing, then there's no. There's like. There's no meat on the hook. There's just nothing to really go with. [00:43:05] Speaker A: There's nothing there. [00:43:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:43:06] Speaker A: And then you end up performing instead of connecting. And that's not the same thing. Connection is not the same as performing. Yeah. Okay. Michael, any last words before I wrap this up? [00:43:14] Speaker B: No, I think. I think I covered it. [00:43:16] Speaker A: All right. Falling in love with the fantasy. Whether you're falling in love with the potential of someone that you're dating or someone you know, or you are in love with the idea of this perfect man who's going to come up and sweep you off your feet and have the most beautiful love story, this is a great episode to go listen to. And maybe, maybe if you're listening to this, you might want to send this to one of your friends. You probably have someone in mind, if it's not you, who might be able to benefit from this conversation. So thank you, Michael, for joining us on another wonderful episode of Gaming Going Deeper. Thank you to our viewers and listeners. If you're watching us on YouTube, don't forget to tap that thanks button to support the gay men's brotherhood and the Game and Going Deeper podcast. Don't forget, you can also subscribe on Apple to Game and Going people to get early access to episodes about three weeks before they are released to the public. All of your support helps us to continue making content for the community, and we thank you so, so much in advance. And finally, I hope to see you guys at the next Connection circle. Check out gamingdeeper.com events to learn more. All right, bye, guys.