Dealing with Guilt and Regret

[00:00:02] Speaker A: Hello everyone, and welcome to Gaiman going deeper, a podcast by the Gaiman's Brotherhood where we talk about personal development, mental health and sexuality. We are your hosts. We have Matt Lansdell. He is an intuitive life and spiritual coach and counselor focusing on healing and empowerment. And we have Reno Johnston, a spiritual life, love and business coach. And I am Michael Diorio, a life and wellness coach specializing in sexuality, relationships and self confidence. We each have our own private practice, but in this podcast we're sharing all of our best stuff. And today we are talking about dealing with guilt and regret. It's a heavy one, but we're going to walk you guys through this, okay? So some of the questions we are discussing today are how do you find a balance between healthy self reflection and dwelling on past mistakes? What steps can you take to move forward from your mistakes without being consumed by guilt or regret? Is it possible to truly overcome regret and guilt? Or is the goal more about acceptance and learning to live with these emotions? If you've ever made a mistake in your life and you've had a hard time reconciling that with yourself or others, this episode is for you. Please stay with it. A reminder for you guys we will be continuing this discussion on the last Thursday of the month in the gay men's Brotherhood Zoom hangout. This is where we give you guys a chance to share your own thoughts on the topics we discuss here. To join us, you can join the private Facebook group and check out the events tab, or you can just get on our email list and we'll email you the link the day before the event. All the links are in the show notes. This podcast and YouTube channel are listener and viewer supported, so if you enjoy what we're creating here, you can support us by making a donation to the show using the link in the show notes. You could also subscribe to get early access to episodes on Apple Podcasts. All of your support helps us to continue making content and supporting the community, so we thank you very much in advance. And finally, if you are looking to accelerate your personal development journey, please check out our coaching collection. It includes two courses, healing your shame and building better relationships, plus over 45 premium personal development coaching videos on the topics of body positivity, relationships, self confidence and community. So head over to gay mengoingdeeper.com for more info. And in fact, in the coaching collection in that relationships pathway, you can find one of the lessons called when you fuck up, which I did myself. I'm going to borrow that. Borrow that. In this episode. It's a 16 minutes video module where I take you through a step by step process on how to move from shame to forgiveness. So for those of you out there who like actionable steps and processes, please check that out there. It's when you fuck up, and it's in the relationships pathway. Or you can click on learn from Michael and the video will be there. All right, let's get into it. So I have to confess something to all of the viewers and listeners out there. I'm not always nice. In fact, the people that know me best know that I have a very sharp tongue, and I'm not afraid to use it when I'm feeling triggered, attacked, or hurt. Now, I've never been a fighter. I don't raise my voice. I don't use my fists, nothing like that. But I have a terrible knack for knowing exactly what to say to push your buttons, and I will push that button. That is the greatest weapon I've always had, is my words. And sometimes I say something that intentionally hurts someone I love. And if you've been there, you know that feeling as soon as you say it, you just want to grab it and take it back. You want to hit the undo button. You want to do control Z. But life does not work that way. Once it's out, it's out. Once it's done, it's done. And so, in the immediate aftermath of these kinds of situations, there's a lot of feelings happening right away. It's anger, frustration. I'm justifying my behavior. I'm blaming the other person, saying, well, they deserved it. That's what you get. That's what you get for pushing me. Don't come for me. A lot of that. But then slowly, as time goes on, a terrible sinking feeling starts to creep over me, like, just like a slow tide of water. And it's like, fuck. I think I went too far. I probably shouldn't have said that. Fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck. Oh, Michael, you know better. Why did you say that? And then all of a sudden, I'm now swimming in guilt and regret, which, by the way, usually comes with a big dollop of shame for good measure. So we're dealing with some really heavy stuff here today, okay? And that's what we're talking about. Now, we all make mistakes, big and small. We let people down. We let ourselves down, which sometimes feels even worse. We say things we shouldn't say. Like me. We do things we know we shouldn't do, but then we do them anyway, right? I know you guys have all been there. So how do we deal with these experiences? How do we deal with the inevitable guilt and shame and regret that comes after that? So that's what we're going to be talking about. And I want to, before we jump into the conversation, just differentiate these two very related, similar emotions, guilt and regret. Um, and as per the Google, guilt is the feeling of responsibility and remorse for something you've done, for an action you've taken. So, in my case, um, guilt would have been like the part of me that says, I fucked up, I really fucked up, I shouldn't have done that. Regret is the feeling of wishing something could be different than it is. So regret would be like, oh, I wish I hadn't said that. I wish I hadn't done that. Okay. Both are focused in the past, so there's a desire to wish things can be different than they actually are. Wishing things could be undone, wanting to change the reality. So, regular listeners of this podcast know that emotions are messengers. Talk about that a lot. Whatever emotion we're dealing with is a messenger. And even the most awful, heavy, terrible, shitty feeling ones like guilt and regret, I can be useful to our own personal growth and development. And so today we're going to give you guys some ideas on how to do that. So, without further ado, let's get into our first question. And that is, how do you find balance between healthy self reflection and dwelling on your past mistakes? And today we're going to start with Marina. [00:06:28] Speaker B: Why am I entertaining these memories of what's happened in the past, what I've done in the past, et cetera? I think just inviting curiosity, that question itself, why is an invitation, you know, and we are welcoming curiosity into the space. I think that is a beautiful place to start when we notice ourselves either inquiring or dwelling on something that has happened in the past. And who with that, the question is this serving me, right? Like I like to ask myself sometimes, is what I'm up to in this moment? Is what I'm up to in this moment serving? And if so, how? How is this serving, you know, and if it's not, then how so? And am I using it or is it using me? This is another question, I guess what I notice in everything that I just said in response to the question is that this is all curiosity. This is all inquiry. This is all about inviting the energy of curiosity and inquiry, ideally, compassionate curiosity and compassionate inquiry into the space when dealing with guilt and regret. Because it's my experience that that is how we begin to heal and reconcile with that guilt and regret as opposed to judgment. You know, shame, blame, all of that stuff like that. That energy, just. It doesn't. It's not conducive to healing and reconciliation. It's not conducive to amends. So that that's how I find balance, I think, is by starting with curiosity and compassion. [00:08:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:08:58] Speaker B: What about Yao? [00:09:00] Speaker C: Ciao. Yeah, this was an interesting question. I had to sit with it for a bit, and then I was like, ugh. It went back to all these parts. I was like, oh, I did that. And I was trying to go back to these parts. So I kind of walked myself through that. It's amazing how my ego won't let me go there. It's, like, for so many things that happen in my relationships, it always takes two to tango. And there's three sides to every story. Mine, yours. And the absolute truth of looking down on the situation. And a lot of my humble pie has been about looking at some of the mistakes I've made in my relationships. And some of the horrible things that I did and said and whatever. So, yeah, I'm right there with you, Michael. You know, self reflection. I think it's required, and I think it's important. But just in the initial stages of, like, when we're starting to, let's say, starting shadow work, we have to go there. We have to reflect on what we did. And we have to start to ask ourselves, like, with compassion and curiosity, like, why did I do this? What part of me was so terrified that I had to act in this way? Right? And I think that's really important. So I tend to live by the motto, look, but don't linger. And it's very hard to do, because my mind loves to linger. And it loves to create drama in places, but there doesn't need to be drama. But again, that's coming from fear, right? The fearful part in me just wants to always linger there to try and figure it out or find safety or whatever. But look, don't linger is. Is something that a yemenite, a woman that I used to work with at the jail, told me. And she lost her husband. And I asked her how she handles the grief and going through something like that. Like losing the person that you've loved for your whole life and spent your whole life with. And she said, well, I try to look and I reflect on all the beautiful things that happened in that marriage. But I don't linger there for too long, because I'll get pulled back into the grief. The same thing here. We get pulled back into the guilt and the regret. So I think we want to use it as data to look at, like, okay, what do I need to do about this? Where is this shadow inside of me? What do I need to focus on? And when we do that, we take responsibility for it and we start to heal the parts of us that were acting in that way. And I ask myself, too, some of the things that I've done in my relationships, and one of them I'm not even going to share. It's terrible, but that's the one that always creeps back in. And I'm like, oh, man. But I just tell myself, I'm like, what can I do about that? There's nothing I can do. It's already happened, right? So I can continue to beat the shit out of myself, but that's not going to help me. I've already done the work to heal the part of me that acted in that way in the first place. So I think this is really a play. The balance is the key word here. And the balance for me is taking responsibility and forgiveness. That's balance for me. It's like, how can I take responsibility and find forgiveness for myself? Yeah. Because the self punishment, all it does is perpetuate the part of us that acted that way in the first place. Because the part of us that acted like that is probably the part of us that feels punished and scolded as a child. So we get, we develop these parts that have to protect that protector is the one that lashes out. Right? So again, it's like, how can we offer ourselves compassion to build off of last week's conversation? So, and then I just wrote down here, I try to focus on who I am becoming and correcting the parts of myself that caused myself and others pain. Yeah. [00:12:31] Speaker A: Love it. [00:12:32] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:12:33] Speaker A: Yeah. You guys both had some great, great points there. I second all of that as I was thinking about it, as you were sharing. It's almost like if balance is what we're aiming for, there's almost like two extremes. One is dwelling and kind of talked about what that looks like, but then the other one, like, why self reflection is important. And I see this a lot with men, is a resistance to even do that self reflection in the first place. Like, I don't know. I'm not going to go there. Like, you know, I don't want to look at that. I. It wasn't me. They deserved it. Like kind of like how I was saying in the initial aftermath of my tongue lashings, I'm like, well, that's what you get right, like, not even taking that ownership and that doesn't create growth. You just can end up being stuck and pissing off a lot of people and probably not being very kind to yourself either. So balance is really what we're going for. And I think one of the first things that you have to do is recognize that you, we all are not perfect. We all make mistakes. We all have made mistakes. We will continue to make mistakes. We're not perfect. We're fallible. So we have to own it when it happens. And that's really hard to do. I will admit that is very much a hard thing to do. And then the second piece of it, and you guys both alluded to this, is really learning from it. That's the difference between dwelling and moving forward and learning from it. So what did I do to contribute to this situation? Notice the wording there. What did I do? Not what did he do or why did he deserve it or why I did this. Right, but what did I do to contribute to the situation? I'll go back to my example. I'll play using this one a lot. And by the way, I have become better at this. So for those of you listening, I'm not an asshole. I'm just. I just fuck up once in a while. Usually, oddly enough, with the people I love the most, which is really sad because they're the ones who deserve it the least. But anyway, so what I learned from that, from that particular situation was I need to better regulate my emotions and conflict. Why I did it in that moment was I was feeling very like. And I just came out and I just wanted. I wanted the conversation to end, the argument to end. And I had the knockout punch, and I knew I had the knockout punch, and I delivered the knockout punch, and the conversation ended then and there. Well, luckily, the friendship didn't end, but the conversation should. So knowing, okay, I need to not get to that point when I'm in a conflict with someone that I love, right. So I need to notice myself heating up in those moments and then gently ending the conversation before it goes too far. And that could be like, you know what? I don't think this conversation is getting very far from me right now. Let's take five. Let's take some time and come back to this when I'm in a better space. Something like that. Right? So that's the lesson I learned from it on what I did to contribute to it. Dwelling would have looked like, you know, how at the end I was like, oh, why did I say that? Why did I do that? Dwelling would have just been that cycle on repeat over and over. I should have done that. Why am I doing that? I'm such an idiot. Why did I do that? Blah, blah, blah. No forward movement. So of course you want to feel the guilt and regret, but to a point like you guys have both talked about, we want that forward movement. So the question is, what are you going to do about it? Right? Like Matt had said, and there's a variety of answers to this question, it really depends on your situation. So for those of you out there who are maybe dealing with a situation where they have made a mistake and they are feeling a bit of regret or guilt for mistakes, let's go to our next question is, what steps can you take to move forward without being consumed by the guilt and regret? Reno. [00:15:58] Speaker B: Well, so I want to kind of connect the first and second question here because there's something that I left out and I left it to the second question, but I feel like it ties into the first and that's opening the container and closing the container, I really value, and I think it's a lost practice in some cultures and in modern day society, which is ceremony and ritual. I really value ceremony and ritual. And I feel like when it comes to exploring and amending and reconciling with things like guilt and regret, I. Making it sacred, making the practice of that and exploration of that, any exploration, you know, because we're like, we're going into like, this is what we're. What we're doing is we're sort of venturing into like, shadowy territory. We're venturing into potentially, you know, traumatic territory. Not in the sense that it is traumatic when we're venturing into it, though it could be, but more so that it's related to perhaps something that might have been traumatic or might have been difficult previously. And so I think creating an intentional practice around a ceremonial and ritualistic practice around opening that container and then closing it is really important. And you get to explore what that looks like for you. Right? Yeah. Thank you. And then I think as far as steps you can take to move forward, I'll just kind of, like, list some off real quick here. I won't get into details, but therapy, coaching, journaling, taking responsibility, making necessary amends, that means having those uncomfortable conversations with yourself and with another person. Codependency work is huge. Trauma work is another big one. Again, speaking to something that came up in our previous episode on compassion, remembering and reminding yourself that you are and extending the same grace to another as well, I am learning, I am growing, and I am experiencing always. And so giving yourself that grace, I think, is huge when it comes to moving forward, feeling it, honoring it, and then reflecting on what you'll do differently now that you know what you know and didn't know at the time. And this is a big piece because we don't know what we don't know. And I like to err on the side of everyone is doing what makes sense to them at the time. And when something new makes sense to them, they will do something different. And that is how I extend grace to another and to myself is to recognize that and so honor that, yes, this happened and you were responsible. Honor your responsibility and what happened. Don't worry about everyone else's. Just honor and take responsibility for your own, and then recognize that it made sense given what was happening, given that particular context, and that moving forward, you will try something new, you will do something different. So I think that's. Yeah, that. That's my answer to that question. [00:19:37] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:19:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:19:39] Speaker B: What about you? [00:19:40] Speaker C: I love that. Ceremonially, like, opening and closing, because that's like giving yourself permission to go there. It's like, I'm going to look, but I'm not going to linger. I'm going to close the container. I'm going to go back. Right. I think that's important for shadow work, too. Like, when we're open, opening the container, we're going to go in and do a bit of shadow work, and then we're going to come out, we're going to close the container. Right. It's kind of a really cool way for. For you to do that. So great idea. Uh, the first one for me I put is take responsibility. And this is kind of internally and externally, we have to take responsibility for the things that we've done, own them, uh, get out of this whole ego negotiating that we, you know, blaming and projecting and stuff. Like, just take responsibility for the thing that you did, because then that way, once it's integrated, we stop looping. Right. And then they externally would be taking responsibility for, like, making amends, like you said. That's so crucial. You look in the aa model. Why? That's probably one of the most difficult steps, but one of the. Probably the most profound steps is taking responsibility for what you've done while you were using, and it helps liberate it. Right. Because then we, again, we stop looping, we get forgiveness or we don't, and then we can put closure on it. Right. I think the things keep looping because we haven't had closure. And I think that's really important. Reminds me of, like, most of the mistakes I've made in my life came from when I was drunk. And all of my relationship struggle and things, betrayals and things have always involved alcohol. So, you know, I've made a conscious choice to either not drink for periods of my life or drink very, very minimally and just drink responsibly. Because I make mistakes. I become very promiscuous. I tend to, like, be more inclined to do hard drugs, these sorts of things when I'm drinking alcohol. So, again, that's been a part of my. Because two episodes that happen, and I'm not going to share them on the podcast were very traumatic, and the way I showed up was very traumatic for other people, and I. And it happened because of alcohol. So I made a choice after the second incident to not drink. I didn't drink for four years after that because I felt like that was the thing I needed to do to clean up my. My act. Um, yeah. And then I just. I said, you know, doing shadow work again, I'll. I'll talk to that again, because I think it's important. Like, shadow work is about integrating the parts of us that we've rejected, as I've said before, so when we allow ourselves to fully feel the pain from the past and the things that we've done, we no longer are negotiating. The ego is not negotiating it anymore. We keep revisiting it because we haven't integrated it. So the loop is still open. We haven't fully closed it and put closure on it. So I think the shadow work is important, and it's like telling the ego that it can stop doing the negotiating and that we can start to take responsibility. We can feel the hurt, we can feel the sadness, the guilt, the regret, all the things of what we've done. If we're not feeling those things, then we're not healing them, and we're going to stay in the loop, and that's what the ego's job is to do. So we kind of have to say to the ego, stand down. I'm going to go in, and I'm going to do this. Because you can't do shadow work when your ego is activated, the ego won't let it happen. I think that the ego, from my understanding, the ego is the part of us that is negotiating between the authentic self and the subconscious self. It's not letting those two merge and fuse together because there's too much pain in the subconscious self that it won't integrate the ego is the part of us that doesn't allow us to connect with it. It's adaptive, but we need to tell it to stand down while we go in and start to open up the skeleton closets and start to do this work. And then the last thing that I think is important is to talk about it with another person and have them practice compassion with you so you can practice it with yourself. And I think I see this a lot in my work. Actually doing counseling with people is that when I give them permission, sometimes it's like, thank you. That's what I needed to hear of. I needed somebody that I view as an authority to give me permission to love myself or to meet this part of myself that I've not been wanting to meet or whatever it is. And I think when we get permission from other people, sometimes that's the start. Starting point of giving ourself permission to go there. And I just think, again, it's important to look at it through the human lens of, we're all messy, we all make mistakes, we're all fallible. And the more grace we can give ourselves in that, then it makes it easier for. For us to deal with that. And, you know, that's how we heal shame. Right. We expose ourselves. We share ourselves. So that part of that is we share, you know, the things we've done that have been hurtful to other people, with. With people. And then someone says, yeah, I, you know, listen to my story. I've done this, too. And it makes us feel like, okay, right. So we can. We can bond over the things and the hurts that we've caused others, as well, with people, and find compassion for each other. [00:24:30] Speaker A: Yeah, there's that c word again. Compassion. [00:24:34] Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. [00:24:35] Speaker A: That's what it's all about. Um, one. One of the ways I think, to do that is to. You guys nailed everything that I wanted to say. So one of the things I think you can do that is asking yourself the question. And the great thing about working with someone else is they will likely ask you this question, as I would ask a client, is, why did you do that? Why did you do what you did? Like, let's just be honest, like, what. What part of you was alive? And that moment that. That was the action you took. Right. And really coming at that from a place of understanding and self compassion, again, going back to our earlier episode. Right. Was really important to understand what was going on in that moment, even though it was a second. And I think in my case, that was very much part of you and was very much authentic and deserves a little bit of love or compassion. Question for you guys on the. On the piece I also had here about asking for forgiveness, forgiving yourself, making amends. But if there is a person who is no longer in your life for what you feel guilt or you've done some wrong to, or there's regret, um, how might you get that? How might you. How might you make amends in that case. [00:25:48] Speaker C: Can you reach out to them or they're, like, passed on or something? [00:25:51] Speaker A: They're passed on. You can't contact them. You don't have any contact information. It's been a while. It's just something that you're holding on to. But there's no way to reach out to this person and say they blocked you or they've passed on. [00:26:03] Speaker B: Well, my response to that is that, I guess in a way, I'm making my experience about them. And it like, to me, this feels edgy to say, because, like, please take what I say next with a grain of salt, because I'm just figuring this out for myself. But to me, that is steeped in codependence. The idea that I require someone else's presence in order to reconcile with my own regret and guilt, I am capable of. Of doing that work, whether or not that person is physically with us, because it's not theirs, it's mine. So what I guess whatever I need to do to get to a place where I have reconciled that in myself is my work, whether they're here or not. I'm not sure if that makes sense, but that's what comes up for me. [00:27:07] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. I would agree with you. I think to a certain point, I think intention would be the. Would be my answer. Like, I think when we are in a place of compassion for ourselves, forgiveness for ourselves, and we are ready to make that bridge with somebody, I think it's just the intention alone. It's the energy of my heart is now open, my ego is now standing down, and my heart is open, and I'm ready to make amends. Do we need the other person to say no? I agree with Reno. That's what I would agree with is we don't need that. It just can help the other person heal and be part of their healing. So that's when I think it would become. And I wouldn't even call that co dependent. I'd call that, like, selflessness. Like, we're actually. Or compassion. We're generally concerned about the other person's suffering, and we want to alleviate it. So is it. And it could be selfish in the sense that, yes, I want to alleviate this for myself without due concern that we're leaving it for them as well. So can we practice both compassion for self, compassion for other, and do that? So, yeah, and I'm a believer in the ethers and I'm a believer, and I can forgive somebody and they can feel it through the energy as well. But I have to mean it. I have to actually be embodying the energy of forgiveness and regret or remorse or whatever it is in order for that to be transferred. Right? Yeah. [00:28:28] Speaker B: And. And also that. Oh my God, this is so brilliant. I love that you asked this question, Michael. I think it's a beautiful question. And the other piece is, I'm assuming that. That, a, that that person is still holding onto it in the same way that I am. Right? Because they may have let it go a long time ago, and b, I'm invalidating their own responsibility or capacity to work through whatever harm I have caused them on their own, in their own way, using their own tools and their own resources. So again, it's not to buck responsibility. It's like I fucked up and I can only do what I can to make amends. And Matt, you mentioned the twelve steps. I love the twelve steps. They're brilliant. You know, I would say to anyone who's listening, you want to work this out, like, go through those, you know, and it's hard. But there's one of the steps talks about how, as you're making amends, you make amends when and where necessary, accept when to do so would cause somebody harm. So even that line alone suggests that it's not always required that you have that conversation with them. Right. Like, it's really about you making the amends. Right. With yourself. For yourself. Yeah. [00:30:08] Speaker A: Well said, guys. I think that's. That answers the question I had. So thank you. You both have so much wisdom and insight, and I think that'll help a lot of people out there. Help me, of course. I think the last step of any step, in terms of the question, what steps can you take to move forward? The last step is move forward. So whatever it is, whether we like Reno, I think the way I imagine is when Reno said closing that container, that, to me, is that, okay, that's the end of it. We're processed. It doesn't mean we forget what happened. Doesn't mean we just, like, we carry that with us, but we don't carry the pain with it anymore, if that makes any sense. So I think it's really important that that last tip should be some form of that. Closing the container, moving on, releasing like that has to be the last step so that you're not. It's not consuming you anymore. [00:30:57] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:30:58] Speaker A: Which is a great sway to our next question. Is it actually possible to truly overcome guilt and regret, or is the goal more about accepting it and learning to live with these emotions? Really curious to know what you guys have to say about this. [00:31:14] Speaker B: Yeah, my. Well, my thought was what came through is that I think how we overcome regret and guilt is through acceptance and learning to live with and love what is. You know, it's through compassion. Go back and listen to our previous episodes on compassion. You know, there it is right there. The tools, the work. So, yeah, I really genuinely and wholeheartedly believe that it's possible to truly overcome regret and guilt. I do. And I know this because it's my lived experience. I have. Matt, I so, so appreciate you for bringing up addiction. You know, I wrote in my notes here that I was in the frequency of addiction and reaction when I made some of my greatest mistakes as well, you know, and that really landed for me. And it also helped me to remember why I don't drink anymore, you know, because certainly I could justify those activities, but the reality is that they didn't really add to my life. And, you know, and so I'm grateful for those choices, but, you know, certainly I did and said some really terrible things, you know, and I have forgiven myself for a lot of that, because I understand that in those moments, given the context and what made sense to me at the time, that's what I was up to. And it doesn't mean that I'm. It doesn't mean that I am sort of letting myself off the hook. It's like, to those who I have harmed, I am so sorry. You know, forgive me for I know not what I did. You know? Forgive me for I know not what I do. Forgive me for in every moment, I am learning, I am growing, I am making mistakes, and I am changing. You know, that is why I believe that it is possible and have experience that possibility, you know, to truly overcome regret and guilt. Yeah, absolutely. I think. I think I'll leave it there. I think I'll leave it there. I might want to say more later, but. Yeah. What about you? [00:33:43] Speaker C: Yeah, I kind of pretty much would just parrot what you said, but I think acceptance is what leads to the feeling of overcoming like it really is. It's the foundation of it. But I do think that, like, before we get to acceptance, we have to actually develop tolerance to these things, right? So we have to feel them again. It's like the principle of life. It's the meaning of life that I'm. That I'm discovering is we can't heal something unless we feel it, right? Everything else is just denial that, oh, yeah, I've healed it. It's the ego convincing us that we have, right, when really it's still sitting inside of us. So if we go to the heart of it and we develop that tolerance, and it takes a lot of courage to do that and a lot of humility to go into the heart of the emotion, that's maybe, you know, taking us over, and we feel it. I think that's when things start to shift, and then we meet acceptance, right? So I think it's. It's about that. And again, like, lead with so much compassion on this journey for yourself, like, because we are messy creatures. We make mistakes. Like, in your romantic relationships, you're going to be betrayed. You're going to be disappointed, because, again, we can't control what other people's wounds are and the things that they do. So we're always going to be showing up in ways that we think are an integrity, and it still might wound somebody, we still might hurt somebody, even with the greatest of intentions. Right. So I just think that it's important to understand this about the human condition and that it's inevitable we're going to feel guilt and shame and these sorts of things. So learning how to be with these experiences, I think it's really the medicine, in my opinion. [00:35:15] Speaker A: Yeah, 100%. I agree with what you guys said there. Looking back to the things that I feel most guilt or regret for, if I think about it, I will feel it again. So I don't know if I can say that it's gone because I can bring myself back there. But does it have the same impact on me? Does it linger over me like it used to? No. And I think that's the key. So I think, to answer the question, yes, what you guys both said, it's really about learning to live with it, accepting it, feeling it. We say the same thing about all the emotions we talk about, right? So to live that full life, to live a full human life, means to live and feel the full breadth of that emotional experience of it, including guilt and shame. Or guilt and shame and regret, despair, grief. All of the really heavy ones, right? So I think that this all falls under the category of, like, emotional intelligence, EQ, um, you know, the ability to understand and process your emotions is what we're talking about here. That's what this conversation's about. Uh, so that you can then communicate effectively, empathize with other, overcome challenges, diffuse conflict in your own life. Emotions, including these ones, are. It sounds trite saying this, but they're nothing to be afraid of. Even though I myself am terrified of feeling regret and shame. But, I mean, I'm terrified of feeling it, but I know in my heart of hearts, I know in my soul that it's just a feeling and that with the right support, you guys both talked about support. I can't underline that enough. There's so many ways to get support out there, guys. Lots of different ways to do it. Um, so go seek it out. But ultimately, yes, your feelings are meant to be felt, even. [00:36:54] Speaker C: Yeah, I want to add to that because I think it's such an act of vulnerability and courage to tell somebody the why you hurt them and not. And not from your place of excuses, from your place of vulnerability, which is, I was scared shitless. I felt this. And lead with feeling words. Like, I was feeling jealous. Like, oftentimes, most people aren't going to admit that. They're going to just be like, I was angry. Right. It's like they don't want to admit jealousy or they don't want to admit that I was feeling deep shame or I was feeling scared. [00:37:25] Speaker A: Right. [00:37:25] Speaker C: Like, I notice in our culture, to say I'm scared is, like, one of the biggest faux pas. Like, people just avoid saying that they're scared. Instead, they'll say, I'm angry, I'm disappointed, I'm hurt. But really, at the end of the day, there's so much fear that is in most people that. So I just think that's one of the most beautiful ways that we can. We can let people into our world is by just owning our experience, revealing it to them. And we're more likely to get compassion and forgiveness from other people if we do lead with that. [00:37:54] Speaker B: Yeah, it's so diffusing. You nailed it. You know, like, imagine saying to a person, like, I want. I want what you have. You know? Like, yeah. Like, I want what you have. I admire you to the point of, like, to the point of jealousy, you know, to the point of envy, what have you. Like, that's really hard to admit. You know, I love. I love that. But in it, it liberates the both of you, you know? And it makes space for, you know, for forgiveness and expansion. [00:38:29] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:38:30] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:38:31] Speaker C: I think the ego thinks it's giving up power, though, that's why if you tell somebody that you want to be them or you want what they have, it's like the ego thinks that, oh, I'm giving all my ammunition to this person. Now their ego is going to feel bigger than my ego. I think that's why we do it. So again, ego is the mechanism of separation. It's constantly dividing us from ourselves and dividing us from other people. It's fascinating. [00:38:53] Speaker A: You both nailed it. And going back to my example from the beginning, when I was having this conflict with my friend, the reason why I did that would really cause me to do it. My thing was he was saying something about me and he was right. But I didn't want to look at it. I didn't want to see it. I didn't want him to see it. And so I was like, oh, no, this conversation has to end. I'm going to give you the knockout punch. But that's what was really going on. So you nailed it. That's right. [00:39:20] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:39:20] Speaker C: Fascinating. [00:39:21] Speaker A: Yeah. And to Reno's point, it made us. It made us. When we had the conversation, there's a whole new layer of vulnerability revealed. We got closer. Now, I mean, that. That issue is behind us, but it really brought us deeper, and I'm really grateful for it. But it wouldn't have happened had we not done that work. [00:39:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:39:40] Speaker C: This is exactly why I say that humility is the most underrated quality for attraction and sexiness for me. Because a guy that's willing to be humble enough to have those conversations about their own shortcomings and own them and bring them into deeper intimacy and vulnerability, that is the yumminess. That's the yumminess. That's what I want. Want. And it's not a skill you find in abundance. Like, barely anybody, barely any of my partners that I've had in my life have had this skill. And I'm just yearning for that day because I truly do. I have this skill. I've developed it. I have the ability to be able to own my shortcomings and show up. Not all the time. My ego still gets involved in the way, but I just. Yeah. I would love for more people to develop this skill because it's such a beautiful skill. [00:40:26] Speaker B: Yeah. Wow. This is so good. You're making me again. It's the. It's the twelve. It's the twelve steps. The first of the twelve steps is I admitted I was powerless. That, like that. That's humility right there. That's humility right there. I admitted that I was powerless. Right. And that I had lost connection with consciousness. Right? Like, wow. Yeah, I feel like you nailed it. And then what that opens the door to is the space for rigorous honesty. Right? Like, that's another thing that comes up in the twelve steps, is the practice of rigorous honesty. So it's like admitting those things that we're talking about, you know? Um, and for those who are listening right now, I just want to say, like, I'll lay some of my stuff out there right now. It's like. And. And I. And I can do it because I've reconciled with it. Like, I have. I have. And again, I'm not proud of this. I have, um, engaged sexually with someone who had a partner. I have called people, like, drunk dialed people, you know, back in my earlier years and left nasty messages on their machines. I have said things that I know would hurt someone or get under their skin. Gosh. Like, I mean, the list goes on and on, right? And I can say all of that because I have forgiven myself. I have forgiven myself, and I have made amends and continue to make amends. It's a continuous practice, a daily, moment to moment practice of rigorous honesty. And as you mentioned, Matt, humility, again and again. It's not just, oh, I did it, and it's over. It's like every moment, every day, we practice again and again and again. And that is how, you know, that is how it becomes possible for us to truly overcome regret and. And guilt, you know? Practice daily. [00:42:43] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:42:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:42:46] Speaker A: Well said, guys. [00:42:47] Speaker C: So stimulating. [00:42:48] Speaker A: Yeah. I think this is helpful for a lot of people out there, because I know that a lot of, especially men, I think, deal with this because they don't maybe know how or it wasn't modeled or for whatever reason. So, for those of you listening, I hope this has been helpful. Do you guys have any last words before we wrap up? [00:43:03] Speaker B: Yeah, just find a safe space to, like, spill your shit. You know? Like, if it's. If it's still there, find somewhere to, like, get into it. [00:43:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:43:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:43:16] Speaker A: And they could reach out to us as well. If any of you guys resonate with Reno or Matt or myself on any of this, we have the tools, we have the experience. We could help you out. So. By all means. [00:43:24] Speaker B: And the skeletons. [00:43:25] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. [00:43:26] Speaker B: We have the skeletons, too, you know? Yeah. [00:43:30] Speaker A: Okay. So thank you guys, for listening. For those of you who stuck with us to the end, thank you to my lovely co hosts, Matt and Rena, for your wisdom, vulnerability, courage. As always, for those of you listening out there, if you enjoyed our conversation, please give us five stars. And write a review on whatever podcast platform you're listening. But especially for those of you listening on Apple. And I know there are many of you, when you give us those five stars in the review, it helps us get into the ears and eyes of people who need it the most. Also, if you're watching on YouTube, please leave us a comment. Tell us your own experience with guilt and regret and how you have managed or how you're dealing with it. And again, join us on the last Thursday of the month in the zoom hangout. The link is in the show notes. To get the link, to get the zoom link, that is, and get on our mailing list where we will email you monthly events, including sharing circles, connection circles, and all the other goodies that we have going on. All right, guys, thank you and see you next time. Bye.