Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to Gaming Going Deeper, a podcast series by the Gay Men's Brotherhood where we talk about personal development, mental health and sexuality. We are your hosts. Michael Diorio is a life and wellness coach specializing in sexuality, relationships and self confidence. Reno Johnston is a spiritual life, love and business coach. And I'm Matt Lancetal, a counselor and facilitator specializing in healing and empowerment.
So we each have our own private practice and in this podcast we are sharing all of our best stuff.
So today we are talking about attraction to straight men.
This is very prevalent in our community and we're going to unpack why, maybe some of the psychology behind it, and then our own experiences with it, obviously.
So the questions we have are what is your relationship like to straight men just in general? Doesn't necessarily have to be about attraction. It can just be about, you know, friendship or anything like that. What do you find attractive about straight men? And have you ever had an intimate experience with a straight guy that you were attracted to? So that should be a juicy question. I'm curious to know what you guys have to say about that.
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And lastly, if you're looking to accelerate your personal development journey, you can check out our coaching collection so you can learn how to heal and empower yourself at your own pace by getting Instant access to 45/ premiums personal development coaching videos created by us, as well as our healing your shame and building better relationships course courses. So you can find those on gayetmengoingdeeper.com okay, so the theme of the month in the Gay Men's Brotherhood is attraction.
So I believe it was last week, was it last week that we. We talked about crushes? Yes, yes, crushes.
So today we're talking about crushes, but we're maybe putting a bit of A flavor on straight men and any of us having crushes to straight men. So I think most of us or a lot of us are guilty of this. But I'm curious for people if, yeah, me. If they know why, do you know why?
So I just came up with some reasons why we may be attracted to straight men. And I think the most common one, when I think about the psychology of this, would be potentially internalized homophobia.
And it could be subconscious.
I think many of us, you know, based off of if we're leading with our heteronormative or patriarchal conditioning, we could be idolizing what we subconsciously wish we were. So if we have internalized homophobia and we reject our gayness, we're likely going to be rejecting the gayness in others. So when we see gayness or, and, or femininity in other. In other men, we might reject that and we might be more drawn to guys who exhibit more masculine or straight qualities.
And that could, and so this could be a subconscious thing. I think many of us won't even realize we're playing this out, but when we start to really do this work, we realize that there could be some, some internalized homophobia there. I know for myself, internal internalized homophobia and the shame around being gay has, has, has moved out of my system in layers. So we don't just go to a. The therapist and work on it, and then it's gone. In my opinion, it like, comes out in layers. And for me, it's taken like many years, almost a decade to heal this in me. And at certain points in my healing journey, I thought I was complete. And then another layer moves, right? I might meet a new part of myself with a higher consciousness, and I'm like, oh, man. Like, this internalized homophobia stuff runs really deep. So I do find that it is subconscious for a lot of people.
And, you know, a question that you can ask yourself to see if this might be inside of you is how do you feel when somebody thinks that you're straight or they confuse you for being a straight guy? Do you take this as a compliment? Are you like, oh, like, that's great. Like, they, they see me as masculine and, and, and heterosexual or whatever. I know for myself, I used to take it as a compliment. I would say probably in my twenties now I don't. Right. I, I love. And I'm very proud of being a gay man. So I don't, I don't harbor that in me anymore.
And then I think, you know, one of the, one of the Main things to look at through this lens would be masculinity. I think a lot of us, when we, when we think about it, the internalized homophobia is about rejecting femininity and being attracted to masculinity. I've definitely had this, I've had shadow side to my attraction to masculinity. And I've also had, and I'm moving more into my authentic desires and like the trueness of what my actual desires are without the internalized homophobia being there.
So that's really important. And I would say the shadow side of masculinity and being attracted to masculinity would be the rejection of the femininity. So I'm attracted to masculine and I reject feminine. Whereas authentic desires I discern as we are not rejecting the feminine.
So you know, I used to reject feminine, now I don't now I love my feminine. And actually the reason why I'm drawn to masculine is because I exhibit more feminine qualities in myself and I embrace them and I love them and I want to find a counterpart that can meet that femininity with, with his masculinity. Right. So I think that's a really beautiful way to kind of for me to frame whether or not there's shadow in my attraction to masculinity or not.
And then I think for some of us, you know, now moving away from internalized homophobia and looking at it just maybe through Len, the lens of just general psychology, I think many of us as human beings want what we can't have.
So when we see that thing over there and we can't have it, it makes us want it even more. So when we know that, you know, a straight man isn't attracted to us or doesn't want us, that can either a play on a wound of, of attracting unavailable people. Right. So we could be attracted to that or we're just attracted to something that we can't have and we've never tasted it before, right. And, and we, we crave it.
Another thing that I came up with is a lot of guys we crushed on growing up were likely straight. So in school, workplaces, these sorts of things that's usually going to be, you know, or in my case on like a hockey team, things like that. It's like a lot of these guys were straight. So there's that part of it too. Just the odds of the attract the guys we will be attracted to just in day to day life, you know, what's the percentage of them being heterosexual? Probably 90%. Right. So, and Then the last thing I want to say, because I don't. I don't. I don't know if we have many straight males that listen to our podcast, but maybe I want to say don't flatter yourself, because oftentimes heterosexual men think that just because they're heterosexual that all gay men want them and want to have sex with them. And I think that's a faux pas. I think it's right. So I. And I've had that happen before with, like, say, some of my girlfriends, and they're very open with me about, like, maybe their husbands or their boyfriends, and their boyfriends are uncomfortable being around me because what if he comes on to me? What if he hits on me? These sorts of things. I'm like, oh, honey. Like, no. Right. So just because you're. You're straight does not mean that a gay guy wants you. Okay, I just wanted to point that out.
All right, so I think I want to start with Reno today.
And I'm curious, what is your relationship like to straight men?
[00:08:37] Speaker B: You would.
And. And I want to echo. I want to echo that. That. That statement as well, because, yeah, it's like, are you. Are you heterosexual men attracted to every single woman you come across?
[00:08:53] Speaker A: Like, exactly.
[00:08:54] Speaker B: No, you're not. Right. We. We. We are also human. We also have standards. So as Matt said, don't flatter yourself, tread lightly.
But, yeah, it's been an interesting journey for me, you know, and I think its origins begin in my neighborhood with some of the other boys who lived in the. In the neighboring houses and who were unkind to me and who.
Who bullied me for being, you know, sensitive and effeminate, etc, and I just really wanted to be in connection with them.
But for some reason, you know, there was this, like, discord between us. And so inevitably, I ended up befriending a number of these people. Like, one of. One of the guys who, funny enough, was my bully, became my best friend, which is wild.
And.
And we had a really close relationship. And what's interesting about it is that I.
What I started to notice in my proximity to him as the walls came down was that he was more like me than not.
And that's been an interesting thing to observe in a lot of my relationships with heterosexual men is that when you start to peel back the layers, we have so much in common. They're so much more sensitive and so much more emotional. And, you know, in essence, these qualities that they. They sort of lead with and exude behind them. There's a lot of like, there's a lot of interesting stuff there, you know, stuff that they.
I.
[00:11:22] Speaker A: My.
[00:11:23] Speaker B: My experience has been heterosexual men will reject in other men or reject in themselves.
And so it's. It's been really beautiful in a way, to. To.
For whatever reason, to be a person who heterosexual men became comfortable with, like, really comfortable with, to the point where they were opening up and sharing very personal details with me. And also, you know, to be transparent, some of them were experimenting and exploring sexually with me, you know, and sharing that aspect of themselves.
And that was also an honor. And it was fun. You know, I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. It. There's the sacred piece, and then there's like the other piece where it's like, oh, this feels a bit naughty. And, you know, this is really sexy and, you know, forbidden territory.
But it's. It's been a progression. And then I think the other point of origin was the father. You know, my dad was not and is not my biological father. Right. The man who raised me. I met my biological father just a few years ago upon moving out to the West Coast. And so this man who raised me and who was in my life, my experience is that he rejected the feminine qualities in me because they were rejected in him, and he rejected my homosexuality and my sexuality, my sensitivity, etc. I've talked about this on previous episodes. And so, you know, I think that also set the tone for. For relationships with heterosexual men.
And over the years, I've since healed that relationship as well. But what I can say is I was either like, flirting with them, fighting with them, or fucking them, you know, that was it. Like, that I was up to one of those three things, essentially. And.
And then as time went on, I started developing friendships with them, you know, friendship that other f. Started to drop in and.
And became natural. And cut to today. Like, just last night, funny enough, I was on a call with a friend who lives in Australia who I met in this house within, I think, the first week. I had asked him to be my valentine and. And let him know that I was sexually attracted to him. And he was very kind in receiving it and letting me know that he was straight heterosexual. And.
And we've been friends for years, and we just spent, you know, almost two hours on the phone last night connecting. So I've come a long way, you know, I've come a long way. And I would just say, like, I see you guys. I feel you guys. Yeah.
Yeah.
[00:14:52] Speaker A: Thanks, Reno.
[00:14:54] Speaker C: Thank you for sharing that story. It definitely got the juices Flowing for me as well. And Matt, thank you for that intro always. So I imagine you, like, in your. In your professor era, as you. As you teach us about the psychology of things. It really helps.
What's the question? What's. What's my relationship like with straight men? Honey? It's complicated.
I'll start with growing up, because I think, Matt, you know, we talked about the psychology of it. I think both of those things that you talked about, what I can relate to in. In that sense of as I was growing up. So when I think back to my earliest experiences, obviously I didn't know that I was gay, and I didn't know that they were straight. I just. They were other boys, right? And I was scared. I was scared of the other boys. I was intimidated by them. Maybe not so much scared. Maybe intimidated is. Intimidated is the better word. And then somewhere along my teenage years, I started getting attracted to these people that I was intimidated by. So that was very confusing. As you can imagine. It created a very muddy experience of straight men or men in general at that point. So, you know, on one hand, I put them up on a pedestal, right? So there's that kind of internalized homophobia a bit. I was intimidated by them, so there was a little bit of fear. I wanted to be like them as much as I was scared of them, and I also wanted to them. So it just created this very strange experience.
And that forbidden attraction. That forbidden attraction was definitely something that it still turns me on to this day. So I think that that lingers because of that. And I still like those situations where, ooh, it's forbidden, it's naughty, as Reno said, I. I still like that to this day. That was then.
Now.
And again, this does not apply to all straight guys. Worth reminding everyone. But I do get along really well with straight guys, and it's fine. But just like, I would get along with anyone who is tolerant, kind, interesting, you know, fun to be around. Like, doesn't matter what their sexuality is, right?
Some guys are actually extremely repulsive, and I'm not into that on any level. So it's not like a blanket statement. Either I'm into strikers or I'm not into strike guys. It really depends. But even still, to this day, when I'm with a straight guy, the fact if I meet somebody who's a partner of a friend or whatnot, it takes me a minute just to settle into that dynamic. I'll go through this thought of, oh, what am I going to talk to him about? We're not going to have anything in common. We're not going to get along. It takes me a second to be like, wait a minute, Michael, this is just, this is just a regular guy. None of this stuff is true. But that still lingers from those childhood days, right? And of course it helps when I meet straight guys who are tolerant and fun and interesting and have lots to say. It just eases right into it.
It's not true that I will be attracted to every straight guy I meet, obviously, like Matt said.
But I do like it when they are attracted to me and I do like it when there is a bit of that, like, ooh, like, could there be something here? And I do fall for it very easily. I'll say that I'm an easy target for those straight guys who like that. And I do think that happens. I think straight guys do like that attention sometimes. Or at least I've, I've experienced that. And to be honest, I'll just kind of play right into it. I'm like, listen, you like the attention. I like giving it to you. We can play this game. I'll play that role. If that turns you on. You play your role. If it turns me on. And it's a win, win situation. We could talk more about that in the next question. So that's, that's probably bit for, for me. How about you, Matt?
[00:18:12] Speaker A: Yeah, I like that.
Yeah, interesting.
I feel like I'm gonna go a little bit further back than what I was going to go. So. Yeah, growing up, I think I had my very first sexual experience with a friend of mine when I was maybe 8.
And then so I grew up. I grew up in a group of. Geez, there was maybe six of us.
And three of those guys I ended up like having sexual experiences with at some point up until the age of, I think maybe 12. And then it stopped.
And it's interesting because around that time, I think it was around the age of like 13, 14 when I stopped hanging out with, with those guys and I started hanging out with all women. And I think that's because I started to have like the realization that I was.
Well, I knew I was gay from when I was five years old. I didn't know what it was. I didn't know that it was actually I'm gay. I'm different than other people. But I knew that some. Well, I knew I was different actually, but I didn't know that I was gay and I didn't understand it. So I think maybe around the age of like 12 is when I started to realize, like, okay, I'm gay. I'm starting to see things in the media. It's not appropriate to be gay, all these sorts of things.
So I started hanging out with women because they were safer for me. And I pretty much hung out, like, half of junior high school and all of high school, I hung out with all women. And I didn't really have a lot of guy friends. I was really uncomfortable around other straight or other guys. And I think it was around the age of 18 when I went to my first gay bar and I went with.
I went with a girlfriend, I think, to a gay bar in Calgary called Boys Town. And it was so overwhelming for me. It was just so much anxiety. And it was just this big.
I don't know, just. It was a lot.
And then I started getting into, like, going to, like, bath houses and things like that. And I was very solo, lone wolf. I would always just go to these experiences. And at that time, I was in active addiction. So I was, like, numbing out all the anxiety of navigating this world and. But still navigating it.
And then I, you know, I played hockey on different. On hockey teams and stuff, like when I was younger. But then I got into playing hockey in my mid-20s and playing on pretty much teams with all straight guys.
And I. I've always had this, like, this discomfort around straight guys. Like the dynamic that you talked about, Michael, like, you know, giving them attention and, and being, like, overt about it. Like, there's no way in hell. You know what I mean? Like, I would just be very shy and disinterested or whatever, and then I would, like, go home and jerk off, you know, like, that's the dynamic I played out. It was very much in my own experience. I would never want them to know that I was attracted to them.
But I'm also empathic, so I can feel when guys are attracted to me and, or, and. Or, you know, I kind of have this rule, right, with guys, you know, with all guys, whether they're gay or straight, like, they look at you once. It's my other. Just like, checking you out. Like, who is this person? They look at you twice and it's like, okay, like there's something up. Like maybe they think you're attractive, or maybe they feel threatened by you if they look at you three times. Like, there's, like there's something there. Like there's an attraction there, right? They keep looking over at you, like if you're in a room or something like that.
So I'm very sensitive to those Things and observing. I think it's part of my hyper vigilance of like, of navigating being gay in a heterosexual dominant world where you have to prioritize your safety, right? You're always looking at. To see who's in the room. You know, are they. Is it safe to be yourself? Like, all that sort of stuff.
And then when I was about.
Actually, this wasn't until recently, so this was about four years ago when I went to Asia. So my neighbor in Chiang Mai, this guy, his name is Neil and he's a straight guy. And we bumped into each other in the elevator and he was like, oh, we should hang out, we should go for dinner and. And whatever. And I just kind of brushed it off. And then I think a couple days later we see each other in the elevator again. He's like, like, let's really go for dinner, like. And he was, like, drawn to me, but it had nothing to do with sexual energy. He's very straight. He just was digging my vibe and. And we ended up hanging out and then we traveled together for the whole year that I was gone. He followed me, or I should say we went together to. To Da Nang. We were neighbors in Da Nang, and we spent the whole time. So every night for dinner, him and I would be out for dinner. And it's the closest bond that I've ever had to a guy. And.
And it was so cool because I was able to talk about my sexual experiences, desires, fears and everything and, like, talk to him about all the things that I was really terrified about talking to other straight men with because I didn't want them to think that I was attracted to them. I didn't want them to be. To be uncomfortable. And then for them to reflect back to me my own shame around being gay. And he was like, not like that at all. He was very open, very accepting of it. So I think in that relationship, I have healed a lot of my insecurities around having friendships with gay men and. Or with straight men. And it's actually been very healing for me because I find straight men are easier for me to be friends with because they're. It takes the attraction factor out of it. And it's, you know, that this is 100, a platonic connection, and that there's not some secret crush at play, this sort of dynamic. So now in my life, two of my closest friends in my life right now are too straightforward guys. And we have beautiful intimacy. We hug, we're connected, we have long talks, and it's really. It's been so healing for me. So all this is just in the last few years that I've been doing a lot of healing around what I would call, like, my own heterophobia. And I think that I did a podcast episode on that topic, actually, and I talked a bit about some of this stuff in that. In that episode. So if you haven't checked that one out already, I would recommend that around. If you do find you're struggling with heterophobia and being afraid of straight men or straight people in general, I think it's. It's an important episode to consider watching. So. Yeah, that feels.
That feels complete for now. Yeah.
All right.
What do you find attractive about straight men? Reno.
[00:24:39] Speaker B: Okay, so I cut myself short a little bit.
[00:24:43] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:24:44] Speaker B: Because I was being, like, self conscious of how long I was speaking for, but I. I want to. I want to go back to the first question for a mom and then just say something.
[00:24:53] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:24:53] Speaker B: Yeah.
Some of my. Some of my most enriching and significant relationships are, like, with straight men. You know, like, currently, one of my. One of my best friends is heterosexual. And like you were saying, you know, we hug and, you know, sometimes he'll give me, like, a shoulder rub and we gas each other up, like, so much, you know, Like, I. It's like, it's my joy to. To celebrate him and, like, lift him up and pour into him and just like, if we're in a room together, I'm, like, gassing this guy up, you know, constantly, and. And vice versa. And it's just. It's so.
It's so amazing. And, you know, and then in high school, like, one of my best friends, Patrick, I said a name. It's cool. But, like, he. I'm sure he won't mind, but, you know, we were thick as thieves.
Like, we hung out every single day. Every single day. And I think he struggled. I think he struggled when I came out. I think that was hard for him. Really hard for him, because we were quite close, you know, and I think it took him by surprise, and I empathize with him.
But, yeah, like, it feels really important to acknowledge the quality and the depth of relationship that I have with.
With straight men and how much value that has added to my life. And I have a lot of really beautiful gay relationships as well, you know, so don't. Don't get it twisted. There are gay men in my life. I mean, two of them are right here, you know, and so, yeah, I just. I really wanted to. To further drive that home that my relationship has. Has Evolved and I'm really grateful to find myself where I'm at in relationship to straight men.
So you asked me what I find attractive about them and like, yeah, there, there are many different things and I think, I think at the forefront I just, I find masculinity really attractive. And it seems that a lot of straight, you know, heterosexual men seem to tend toward masculinity. It's like their primary or leading expression and embodiment. And that's interesting to me, that's, it's sexy to me.
You know, their directiveness, their directness, their assertiveness, their, you know, the way, what else can I say?
I, I think also there's, there's an aspect around, around them being kind of like forbidden fruit, so to speak, that's really intriguing to me. I've always kind of enjoyed a challenge, so I find that attractive. But what I want to say as well is that straight men, like, as I mentioned earlier, like, there's so much more going on there. There's just, there's so much more to them than like, you know, say chopping wood or lifting weights or wearing plaid or like you know, watching football and eating wings and drinking beer and playing hockey. Right. It's like some of those guys again, who I've spent time with, it's like they've like poured their hearts out to me. They love, they, they've cried with me, I've slept in the same bed as them in non sexual way, some in sexual ways, you know, and, and so like there, what I've seen is, yeah, there's just so much more going on there. And like that's also attractive to me that the part of them that is deeply emotional and the part of them that is also complex in a way.
I also feel what I love is like there's a, there's a sort of, and I could probably say this about like, you know, women too and, and you know, gender non conforming and non binary people, but we're speaking to straight men. There's, I feel, I feel like protected by them. You know, there's a sort of camaraderie and, and a protection that I find that I feel at least with the men that I'm in relationship with. I need to be specific about that because there are a lot of straight men out there who I don't feel safe around, you know, because I'm not in connection with. And we could, we could riff on that for ages what that's about.
But I would say, yeah, those, those are some of the qualities that I find attractive in straight men. I think. I think. Yeah, I think that's. That would be it.
Yeah. What about you, Michael?
[00:30:17] Speaker C: A lot of the same ones you said. Yeah, I think chopping wood, you.
A lot of the things that. Like the masculinity. Right. And so that's. That's the piece that. That I have here. Like, that kind of traditional, what we would call masculinity. I love that. You know, last. Last week, we talked about swagger, you know, the energy that exudes this confidence and assuredness. I love that. Whether the person is straight or gay, I like that.
But specifically to the straight side of things. That hard to get. Anything that's hard to get. Sign me up. Like, you just got my interest. I love a challenge, just like you, Reno. And I love the chase. I love chasing and being chased in the case where it doesn't matter to me which. Which role I play, but I definitely get off on that. I get aroused by that. So it gives me.
It gives me a really good challenge in that case. Now, I will say this. I'm not advocating for, like, doing things against anyone's consent. You know, I. I'm not the kind to go chase after someone, like, in a way that's creepy and weird. Um, if anything, when it comes to straight guys, what I do is I'll give, like, a green light so that they. They don't. But I will not make the first move in that case because I'm far too scared. Um, but, yeah, okay, what is a green.
[00:31:31] Speaker A: What does a green light look like for you?
[00:31:33] Speaker C: It's in my eyes. It's in my smile. It's in a. Just a millisecond, long of a linger. Just the way. Just. You know how it is Flirting. This is flirting. Subtle, subtle, subtle cues. And then maybe sometimes not so subtle cues.
I should preface this, actually, by saying that, unlike you guys, I don't have, like, straight friends that I spend time with regularly. I have straight friends, straight male friends. One of my longest, closest friends is straight, and I love him. And actually, he might be the one person who would listen to this podcast who is straight, who would actually do it and get something out of it. So maybe he's listening, but with him, like, he doesn't live. He doesn't live near me here, so I don't get to spend too much time with him. So my interactions with straight men is very limited to, like, a gym. That's it. So it's very much skewed by that experience. I'll say that speaking of which the crushes I do have. When we first talked about this topic, I immediately thought of my gym crush, who I'm like, 99.9999999% sure straight, and I am just obsessed with him. I talked about him last week. I can talk a little bit more about him now. I'm not going to say his name because the guys at my gym will know who it is, but when I see him there, there's just something about. And this all goes under the umbrella of. I'm going to call it masculinity. The way he walks, the way he moves, the way he, like, lifts his weight. He's not a big guy. He's pretty slender, toned.
But also he's so sweet and so kind. Like, if we're kind of going for the something at the same time, he'll say, oh, hi. Or he'll kind of give me the head nod, like, hey, which just cream myself every time he gets, um. And I watch him work out and, you know, we just kind of catch each other's eyes. He has a butt that I just want to sink my face into, but I don't. I just think about it, right? I don't do it, but I think about it, and then, like, my head said, I go home and jerk off about it later. Um, so, yeah, I do have my crushes, and. And I know that that's just never going to happen. And again, it's. I'm not doing this in a creepy way where, like, you would probably not know that I crush on him, but still, it's that fantasy of, oh, I can't have this thing, and therefore I want it more. It's just human psychology. I think that's. That's. That's the case. Going back to my, like, childhood days, I think I still do have a sexual fantasy lingering from, like, jock types. Like, I use. I went to a very Italian catholic school, so there's all the bros and jocks who played soccer and hockey and, like, all that stuff. And I still think that's kind of hot, to be honest. Like, it's. It's. It's like that toxic masculinity that I would never want to, like, spend more than a second with. It'd be like, let's just get this done and then please don't talk. Like, just go your separate ways. But I do have a bit of a sexual fantasy lingering in that respect. So, yeah, that. That's. That's, I guess, my attraction to straight men.
[00:34:24] Speaker B: I want to say something to you really quickly, Michael. I, like, I love how gay you are. And. And I. And I. And I don't mean. I don't mean feminine. And I. And I also. And I'm not saying I don't mean feminine because there's anything wrong with that, but I mean. But I mean, I love how gay you are.
It's amazing to me, like, when you just talked about, you know, the number of gay friendships and relationships you have, and just the way that I see you moving in the world, whether it's on social media or, like, beyond that, it's. It's really inspiring. And I. And it's really beautiful. Yeah.
[00:35:03] Speaker C: Thank you. Thank you. That means a lot to me. Yeah.
[00:35:05] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:35:06] Speaker A: Yeah. That is nice. Very nice.
You made me think about, like, you know, all the guys that, like, we jerk off to. I'm like, I always wonder, like, who jerks off to me? Like, do you ever think about that? Like, you know, who crushes on you at the gym and who.
[00:35:22] Speaker C: I don't think about that, but it probably happens.
[00:35:25] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It'd be interesting.
Yeah. Okay. So what do I find attractive about straight men?
I think I said in the. In the crush episode that I don't ever go up to guys. Okay. Always.
They pursue me. Like, I'll do what you do, Michael. Like, longer gazing, letting them know. Yeah, and then they come over. But there's been a couple times where I've mustered up the courage to go up to a guy and. And, you know, be like, hey, what's up? Or whatever. And the two times that I have, they were straight, and I'm like, I'm literally in a gay bar right now, and I will find the freaking one straight dude and go up to him. So it's just classic. So I'm like. Then I'm thinking, I'm, okay, what am I drawn to in these guys? And a lot of it is what you said, Michael. Like, the walk. Like a guy that, like, just has a really masculine walk, the way that he holds himself, there's like a. I find there's kind of like a confidence that straight men have that's maybe a little different from the confidence that we have as. As gay men. And it's. I think a lot of it is because they didn't have that. That rupture or that injury around the development of their authentic self. And I'm speaking very, very stereotypically in general right now, because, you know, but this is just what I see. A lot of us as gay men have a very significant wound around growing up gay. And our authentic self has been very, very injured in a way. So it's hard for us to develop that confidence and maybe it comes a bit later in life for us, you know. So I do. I do feel that. And even like, for example, like being on a straight hockey team and playing hockey with these guys, I find that there's like, straight men tend to be more. More well adjusted, especially relationally, than. Than we are as. As gay men. And again, I'm using very, very general statements here, but where their injury comes is around masculinity and hyper masculine having to perform this. So they have a very significant wounding around being emotional. Right. And being vulnerable. Whereas I find gay men tend to be more. More open to being more vulnerable and being sensitive because I think innately we are more sens.
So this. So with this being said, there's one thing I'm really, really drawn to, and this is both within. Within, you know, gay men and straight men, but I think it shows up more prominently within straight men is the softening of that masculinity. So the mask of masculinity, when they take it off and they do show more tender tenderness to them. That contrast of like, I was performing a bit of my masculinity and now here's the softer part of me that there's something about that that is so arousing for me, like when a guy shows tenderness. And it's probably the demisexual part in me that I'm like, really drawn to that process of somebody being really masculine and then, you know, maybe softening a bit.
And then I would say, lastly, I would probably agree with both of you guys. Like, my, My. A lot of my relational shadow. Relational dynamic growing up was being really drawn to unavailable men. And my dad is very stoic. He doesn't talk about his emotions. He's very masculine. Like, he's got that energy about him. He's probably even more of like an alpha male. And so I'm very drawn and have been more. Most of my life drawn to that available unavailability.
But I would say that's very, very, very reduced now. Like, it's so insignificant in my life now because I'm starting to realize my worth, which was a lot of the stuff that that wound was playing on is I'm not worthy these sorts of things. So now that I do feel worthy of, like, love and connection and these sorts of things, I'm not really drawn to unavailability.
But I could see it probably still being maybe something that there's sexual stuff drawn to it, but maybe not emotional. Like, when I see somebody who's unavailable or they. They don't want me, it kind of makes me want them more sexually. It's. It's interesting. So maybe there is some. Some healing still at play here in this. In this attachment stuff within my life. So, yeah, those are the main. The main pieces for me.
Okay, last question. Have you ever had an intimate experience with a straight guy that you were attracted to? Reno don't hold.
[00:40:02] Speaker B: Of course.
Of course.
Have I. Yeah.
Yeah. I have a track record.
It's like. Like, how much time do you have?
Yeah, this started when I was younger, and there was, like, someone who lived in the neighborhood down the street. And, you know, I think there's, like. I don't know how to navigate this conversation because I guess it feels a bit edgy to bring it up, but it's like, excuse me. I think we're, like. I just think we're born curious and explorative. I mean, like, from the time we're babies, we're, like, touching and grabbing and putting it in our mouths and all sorts of stuff, right? So it's just like, okay, well, we know how that goes later on. And so I guess, like, you know, there were these periods when I was younger of experimentation. And, you know, you find someone who, like, not only consents, but also was like, I'm. Yeah, like, I'm into this. I want this too. I'm curious as well. And so, you know, in an early age, there was that experimentation and exploration with, you know, some friends. And then as time went on, yeah, I would meet.
Well, I would flirt with straight men quite a bit. And.
And I would say, like, there's a period of time where I was probably engaging with someone straight, like, every year for, like, probably a couple decades. It's, you know, maybe more, even. Well, no, that wouldn't make sense, because I'm, you know, so at least a decade, you know, if not more. And usually, like, you know, like Michael mentioned earlier, it's a look, or I'm on the dance floor or we're hanging out. But, like, you, I could feel it. There's an energy there, you know, or maybe, like, you're sleeping in the same bed, and I just kind of like, you know, my foot ends up over on their side a little bit, and then maybe their foot kind of leans into mine, and I'm like, oh, okay. So it's on, you know, and then we find ourselves fooling around. And so. And I Can even remember. There was this. There was another one. There was another experience I had where my friend and I were like, skinny dipping in the water and then like, you know, he was swimming under my legs, like underwater, and I was doing the same. And you know, obviously our skin's touching as we're. And so there was some arousal there. And before we knew it, we're like fooling around. And then we're regularly fooling around, but at some point, inevitably, like, because they're, as far as I know, they're heterosexual, they're straight. It's like that would end. It was kind of a phase and I was perfectly okay with that.
But this is like a regular and recurring experience for me. And you know, I used to think like, it used to be kind of a game for me, like the, you know, sort of the chase and again, consent, always.
And then it shifted because I started to realize that mine was a space where. And ours was a space where these men could explore aspects and express aspects of themselves that they clearly felt comfortable to do with me, you know, and so it actually started to become more of an honor to be that space for them. Yes, a pleasure as well, but an honor, you know. And so, yeah, it's wild. Like, I. I'm. I'm guessing, like I'm going to need, you know, maybe what, like four hands, maybe more, to count the number of straight men I've had sexual experiences with. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What about you, Michael?
[00:44:27] Speaker C: That's awesome. I love that your initial reaction was that.
So shameless and unapologetic. I love it.
[00:44:34] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:44:35] Speaker C: Like, how many aren't there? Yeah, I would say. I would say several for me.
Several. We'll call it that. I don't know exact number, but, you know, we'll chalk it up to experimentation over the years. Or as you had said, it's a phase for them and I'm happy to be. Happy to be that part of their journey, happy to play that part.
So there's been a few where, I mean, it depends on what we call sexual or intimate experience, but there's been a few times at a bar where that's happened. And like, I like, I like when guys are. Find out that I'm gay and then they're like, oh. And then they start asking questions and I'm like, oh, I love this game. I know exactly where this is going and I love this game. And that really turns me on. Again, it's that kind of like flirty, flirty thing that I just love to do. I'll Also say this because I, I like cruising as well and I go to, I go to the baths and I, I enjoy cruising. I like that scene. You don't always know because we don't always talk about who's gay and who's straight and what's happening. But sometimes people will be there and they say they're straight. But I don't know how much of that is actually true. And at times when we have talked about or we have had a conversation, it's always interesting to me to understand from their perspective what the line is between gay, curious, bi, straight.
You know, is it just an attraction to a guy makes you gay? Is it just, you know, looking at his ass in the change room now and then, does that make you gay? Is it jerking off with a guy that makes you gay? A lot of the times it's like, no. And maybe that's true, maybe that's not. Is it oral? You know, what's a little oral between friends here and there, right? Or is it falling in love and like that? Love and emotional, emotional intimacy. Is that what makes you gay? So it's always interesting in my mind to hear what, how they see it and everyone, I think it's just a bit of a, bit of a side conversation is at what point do they consider themselves straight and gay? Right. Some people say like, oh well, if you're attracted to somebody, you're gay and that, you know, you're deluding yourself. I don't know if I really believe that.
[00:46:39] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree.
[00:46:41] Speaker C: So yeah, I'd say the experiences I have had, have been really fun. It has never been anything that's been like a more than once situation. It's always been a one time thing that I can recall. Geez.
But I will say I do enjoy it and I still do. And I don't think that's ever going to go away. If my Jim crush is listening for like the 0.0001% chance, please, please come to me and say hello. I'd be very, very happy to engage with you further.
[00:47:10] Speaker B: How epic would that, what a story that would be.
[00:47:13] Speaker C: I'd have a whole other sub episode about it.
[00:47:15] Speaker B: Oh my God.
[00:47:18] Speaker A: I want to know what this guy looks like.
[00:47:20] Speaker B: Me too.
[00:47:21] Speaker A: You know what, he's curious what people are attracted to.
[00:47:24] Speaker C: I can't take a picture from because I feel like I'm just not that kind of guy who can like sneak photos. But he's not, he's not what you would expect I think from me he's like I said, he's a pretty, by all conventional standards, an average looking guy. He's got a great body, but like, there's nothing that special about him, I don't think. There's just a vibe that I get. It's always that energy. And he's just so sweet and so nice. Like the way he says hi and the way he's friendly and he gives me little smiles. Not in a flirty way, just a friendly way. And that for me is what really does it. And he's got this sexy body with a good boy energy. But also, I'm sure there's a bad boy energy. And that's. That's the part that I want to get at.
[00:48:00] Speaker A: Yeah, I like that energy too. The contrast. Something about contrast. It's the Gemini in us because we're so dual, right? So it's like when somebody has dualism in them, it's like we're drawing on to that.
[00:48:10] Speaker C: Totally.
[00:48:12] Speaker A: Yeah. It's interesting, this conversation around, you know, straight by gay. Like, what do you define yourself as? And I agree with you, Michael. I think it's like, it doesn't have to be this like binary of like, you know, it can be like, again, like a fluid thing. And it's like, I think a lot of people just don't want to label, nor. Nor should they. I think sometimes people. Guys are just horny. Straight guys are just horny. And they. They find that gay men are.
They don't have to court, they don't have to buy anything or go through this process. They can just go and have sex or get a blowjob. And it's like, not a lot of women are offering that. So I think there's that aspect of it.
So. Yeah, it is. It's really interesting.
Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. Okay. It's reminding me of this experience. But first of all, what I'll say is I tend to attract a lot of bisexual men. I'm not sure why, but. And I don't know how I feel about it, to be honest. I'm kind of still a bit torn about that because I'm like, you know, but, you know, if it was a bisexual guy and I was dating him and we were in a relationship, it would have to be. Well, and I should say it was a monogamous relationship. It would have to be like, you're good with what I can offer. You know what I mean? Like, your needs are met. You know what I mean? But if it was always this thing, like there was a need that went unmet because he Wants to be with women. I probably wouldn't. Wouldn't go down that path.
But yeah, maybe it is that this whole thing around being attracted to straight men, and I exude that energy of being attracted to that. So I'm finding guys who are healthy in that dynamic. Right. And are able to relate. So they are bisexual. I don't know. I'm still analyzing the psychology around it all, but okay. And my. So my story is when I was, I think maybe 24, 25, out with a big group of friends, we were all partying and one of the guys who's straight, very straight, everybody, we were all just out and everybody went home around 3 o'clock in the morning. And then him and I were like, oh, we still want to party. So we went out, we went to this afterparty, and he was like cruising, like, looking for like, girls and stuff like that. And I was just kind of chilling, doing whatever. And then none of the girls at this after party were in into him. And so he was like. He kept saying, oh, I'm so horny. I'm so horny. And. And I was like, okay, I kind of have a feeling I know where this is going. So I was like, okay, well, I'm going to the bath house. You can either come or you can go home, whatever, like that sort of thing. So he's like, fine, I'll come. And he came to the bath house and then we ended up having sex. And yes, and he. But so we. It was, yes, but it was fun. But that friendship was completely lost. I haven't spoken to him since. So it was like, literally as soon as he came, it was like, I could feel it, like a wash of shame came over him and he was like, what have I done? And.
And then, yeah, we haven't spoken since. So it was kind of a lost connection, unfortunately. But so that was one of my experiences. And like, you guys, I have, like, I have several, but that was definitely the most.
The most, like, whatever pertinent or one that comes up in my mind.
And then. So the other thing too is I really like playing with this dynamic in a lot of my relationships. I like role playing, especially if the relationship is like monogamous and, you know, you got to keep it creative and fun and stuff like that. So I like to play out. And a lot of the role playing that I like to play out is like that dynamic of like, you know, two straight dudes camping in a tent together. And like, they're kind of. They're horny and they the leg brushing starts and things and like, taking it really slow and kind of moving into that dynamic. Because those are a lot of the fantasies that I had when I was younger, camping with my buddies, and it was like, I'm horny and, you know, like that sort of thing. So it's like you're recreating the fantasies that we didn't get to create when we were younger. Right. And I think that's a really beautiful exploration within a safe container with somebody that can. Can meet the need. Right. And you know that there's not going to be a significant rejection around it because it's like just, I want to, you know, maybe send some, some love and empathy to the people that were in that situation in the tent. And they did make an advance and they were significantly rejected and they were hurt by that. And I think that can be really, really traumatizing for, for somebody because they're really. At that age, we're just following our authentic desires, which is we're. We're feeling horny, we're sexual, and then it's not being reciprocated can be really painful. So I wanted to offer some love to those people that might be feeling that or have felt that.
Yeah, I think that was everything that I. That I wanted to cover.
Anything you guys want to share on.
[00:53:03] Speaker C: Top of, I want to know how prevalent this is. I feel like this is something that we don't talk about very much. I'd love to know from our viewers and listeners, like, yeah, like, do you have these experiences? Is it frequent? What happens? Curious.
[00:53:18] Speaker A: I did, I did a lot of my research papers in university on the topic of homosexuality and addiction and the prevalence of these sorts of things in the community. Sex addiction, these sorts of things. And I can't remember the exact number, so please do not quote me, but it's a significantly high number. It's like something like 80% of men who were interviewed reported having some form of homeoerotic experience in before age 12.
[00:53:46] Speaker C: Yeah, right.
[00:53:46] Speaker A: So like messing around with your guy friends, jerking off, like these sorts of things. So it's a very high prevalence in younger, younger ages. But at that age, maybe you don't even know whether you're gay or straight or what. But as far as, like, the prevalence, I think it's very high. I know Dr. Court, I mean, we did the podcast on porn and sex addiction or whatever, and he does a lot of work in this area, works with a lot of straight men who are interested in having sex with gay men for the reasons that I described because it's easier, right? It's just you don't have to go through all the stuff with women. So. Yeah, that might be a good resource to, to look into.
[00:54:28] Speaker B: And some of these guys that I interacted with, like, some of them just really wanted to experience a dick in their mouth or, or in their ass, you know, like, and it wasn't even, they weren't like, oh my gosh, like I secretly want to be with a guy and like marry a guy or date a guy or whatever. They were just like. And they would tell me, like, I just like the feeling of a dick in my mouth or in my ass, you know, from time to time. But, you know, so I don't know what that's about. But I was like, that's cool. I get that. You know, whatever. Yeah, right. It's like we, yeah, we get that. You know, you're, you're talking to the right person.
[00:55:07] Speaker A: Yeah. Or on the other side of the spectrum, dominating another. Another man. Right. Yeah, a guy that wants to like, you know, dominate another guy. And it's like gay men tend to be the, the willing participants.
[00:55:20] Speaker B: Totally. We see you and we love you.
[00:55:23] Speaker C: Yes, we do.
[00:55:25] Speaker A: Yes, exactly. And no shame. If you're a straight dude or a bi dude and you're watching this and there's shame around it, there's no shame. Right.
[00:55:32] Speaker C: I like to use the term like men who have sex with men, because I think the word gay immediately just like, oh, oh, that's not me. Because they imagine like, they imagine what a gay man looks like. Maybe the, it is a bit of internal ismophobia and that, you know, something flamboyant. They don't, they don't associate with that, so they just don't want to be gay. So using MSM men who have sex with men as like just something you do but not an identity label might help.
[00:55:57] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, love that. Yeah, me too. I like that.
All right, well, thanks guys for your vulnerability.
I always love hearing about your guys experiences. And yeah, for, for those of you again, if you want to come and join in on this conversation around attraction, come join the Zoom hangout in the Gay Men's Brotherhood. You can either join through the Gay Men's Brotherhood, if you're not part of the brotherhood already, come and join us on Facebook. Or if you wanted to get the Zoom link, email to you. Like I said, you can go to gaimanbrotherhood.com and sign up for our email list. And yeah, like Michael said, we'd love to hear about your guys experience. So if you're watching this on YouTube, drop some comments, let us know your little mini stories around what the experiences that you've had with straight men. It would be a very entertaining comment section. So fill it up. And then if you're listening on your favorite podcast platform and you enjoyed what you heard today, please give us a five star rating so these episodes can get into the hands of the people that need them.
Much love to you. I'll see you in the next episode.
