Self-Disclosure

[00:00:02] Speaker A: Welcome to Gaiman going deeper, a podcast series by the Gaiman's Brotherhood where we talk about everything, personal development, mental health and sexuality. We are your hosts, Michael Diorio. He is a life and wellness coach specializing in sexuality, relationships and self confidence. Reno Johnson is a spiritual life, love and business coach and myself, Matt Lancadell, a counselor and facilitator specializing in healing and empowerment. We each have our own private practice, and in this podcast we're sharing all of our best stuff. Today we're talking about self disclosure, the art of revealing yourself, and we're going to be exploring questions like how do you practice self disclosure? And what have you had to learn to disclose about yourself? What fears arise when you practice self disclosure? And how has self disclosure positively impacted your life? And we will continue these discussions, as always, on the last Thursday of every month in the Gaiman's Brotherhood Zoom hangouts, where you can have a chance to share your own experiences. And remember that this podcast and YouTube channel are listener and viewer supported. If you enjoy what you're creating, you can support us by making a donation to the show using the link in the show notes. You can also subscribe to the Early Access option on Apple Podcast, listen ad free and gain early access to episodes. All your support helps us to continue making content for you and supporting our community, and we do thank you in advance for that. If you're looking to accelerate your personal development journey, check out our coaching collection. Learn how to heal and empower yourself at your own pace by getting instant access to 45 plus premium personal development coaching videos created by us, as well as our healing your shame and building better relationships courses. You can head over to gaymengoingdeeper.com for more information about that. Okay, self disclosure, really, at the end of the day, this is what we do on this podcast, like the three of us. And I want to also share, too, that it doesn't really feel like self disclosure to the world, it feels like disclosure to you guys, right? And then it just happens to get published and people see it, right? Which is kind of like a weird phenomenon for me. But when I'm sharing, I'm like sharing with you two and then just people get to kind of like peep in on it. That's how I feel. So for me, in this context, it doesn't really feel scary, but usually it is very scary for a lot for people and even for myself, depending on the context of what I'm sharing, it can be really scary to reveal ourselves. And I think there's different levels of self reveal. Like, there's, like, retrospective revealing, which is like, you know, I went through this last year and I'm revealing it now, and it's kind of like, you know, it's still vulnerable, but it's like, I'm not going through it right now. So maybe that reveal feels less intense than a reveal of, like. Yeah, right now I'm struggling with finances, and right now I'm got depression or whatever it might be that you got going on. And owning that and bringing it to the surface, that can be a different level of self reveal. There's also things like performative vulnerability. Right. Which is like people performing vulnerability as opposed to it actually being a genuine reveal. That feels really edgy. Right? So self disclosure is when we are talking about revealing our true, authentic self, it's really revealing our whole self. It's revealing the good, the bad, and the ugly and being mindful of who we share these things with, too. Self revealing isn't just about dumping it onto everybody. It's really about, has this person earned the right to see my good, bad, and ugly parts, and do I feel safe sharing these parts with this person? I think there's discernment that's required when we're talking about self disclosure. From my perspective, vulnerability and authenticity are required when we're practicing true self disclosure, we're being vulnerable, and we're sharing from a vulnerable place our most authentic self. Right. Our fears, our needs, our insecurities, our self doubts, our inner critic, all these sorts of things are really important. And the last thing I want to say here is really self disclosure from my perspective, it really attracts the people that we need in our life. Because when we disclose who we authentically are, we attract what we need or who we need back. So, for myself, self disclosure has been a beautiful tool that has helped me attract, well, for example, YouTube. Right? You two wouldn't be in my life if it wasn't for me disclosing myself and sharing that video that I first shared, being super vulnerable and disclosing my fears and my insecurities and my frustrations with the community. Then I met Callan, and then I met Michael, and then I met Reno. So there's a real beautiful outpouring that can happen when we do reveal ourselves in an intimate way. Yeah, that's my little monologue here. So let's start with Reno. Reno, how do you practice self disclosure, and what have you had to learn to disclose about yourself? Curious. [00:05:23] Speaker B: That was really beautiful, Matt. Thank you for that opening and for. And for sharing the benefit of self disclosure. Like, I love that you said, we're here. We're here because of self disclosure. And I think that's a beautiful message and testament. Yeah. For me, self disclosure begins with practice. The practice of curiosity, the practice of compassionate inquiry, the practice of surrender and rigorous honesty. With myself first. Right. With myself first. And I think that practice leads to self awareness. And from that self awareness, self disclosure can follow, you know, in simple ways. Like, I feel sad, I feel angry, I feel lonely, I feel tired, I feel confused, I feel agitated, I feel scared, I feel guilty, embarrassed, ashamed, you know, and then to go into exploration and expression of, like, why that's present, you know, I think that's big. And that, to me, is self disclosure in its sort of simplest form. Like, if I were speaking to a child, you know, I'd say, like, start there. How do you feel and why? You know, I've had to learn to disclose, like, when I need help, you know, that's hard. When there's struggle, that's challenging. When there's confusion or uncertainty, when there's fear. When I'm advocating for my needs, that's a big one, too. And asking for what I want, right? When I'm honoring and expressing my values, my ideas, my beliefs, perspectives, my experience, and when I feel hurt or insecure. And those last ones can be really challenging because, and we'll probably talk a little bit more about this later, but to disclose one's values and ideas and beliefs like, and perspectives, there's always sort of this edginess to that, right? Like, will they be received, you know, or will they be rejected? And if I align closely with. With those things, then maybe there's a sense that they're not just being rejected. I am, you know, and so I like what you said earlier about discernment because that's really important. You know, maybe someone isn't rejecting me, they're just not on board with what I'm disclosing or they don't align with or resonate with what I'm disclosing. So anyway, that is my answer. [00:08:32] Speaker A: Thanks, Reno. [00:08:33] Speaker B: Thanks. [00:08:36] Speaker C: Yeah, good topic. Thank you for. I didn't know what I was going to share, but now I do. So thanks, guys, for getting the Jesus flowing for me. I think. I guess I'll start by saying a remnant of my lone wolf personality is that I do still and I do feel more comfortable keeping my cards close to my chest in my life, which is probably very ironic for a lot of people listening to this podcast because we talk a lot. I don't get my cards close to my chest here, but really, I do. I mean, I mean, people who know me know that I don't, I don't divulge too much about some things, but other things I divulge a lot. But I believe that information is power. And so my fear, and we'll get to this more, is that information can be used against me. So I've learned to hide kind of behind my shyness through my life. And I thought that that was a good thing. I was like, okay, well, it's just because I'm shy or just because I don't want people to know this about me. I mean, being gay is an obvious example of that. Being in the closet right when I was a kid. But at the same time, obviously, in the correct circumstances, self disclosure is a great thing. Can be a great thing. Not always, as you had talked about, Matt. So how do I practice it? I mean, besides here with you guys, that's the best practice I've got. But also in, you know, in my work, right. Like, in my coaching, sometimes I will, to the extent that it's appropriate and will help. Like, I can, I can kind of relate some of my own experiences with people, and that can be very helpful. And I've had to learn when and how to do that in the right circumstance, in the right container, obviously. Obviously, when it comes to relationships and people that I love. Disclosing how I'm feeling, disclosing what's going on in my, especially with my feelings, that's usually the hardest one for me. Um, in a way that, again, serves a greater purpose. I think the, the reason why, the motivation why is really important to me. Um, sometimes those motivations can feel manipulative when, when I'm on the receiving end of it, I'm like, I don't know. I don't like where this is going. Uh, like, some people try to overshare, to an extent, to get something from me. I feel sometimes I don't, I don't like that. I'm very sensitive to that. So I don't, I want to make sure I do the same thing, but I think I overdo it. I think I don't share enough sometimes. And I have been told from, from many people in my life that I can come across as too guarded or aloof or arrogant or even, you know, snobby because I don't like in a big group, I'll just be the kind of quiet guy, observing, watching, noting, you know, it's what I do. Um, I'm really good at that. I've always kind of played that role of my family. Youngest child, big, loud family. I just kind of learned to stay quiet and watch, watch the show. So that stays with me. So it's. It's harder for me to, um, give myself permission. And what I find helps is when people will say, michael, tell. Tell me, how are you feeling? Right? Like, when I get that invitation, then I can do it. But it doesn't come naturally to me, which, again, I know is probably very, very surprising for everyone listening to this after the last three years of me sharing my entire personal life on this podcast. [00:11:35] Speaker A: Thanks, Michael. It reminds me of the structure of this podcast. When we first started, it was the four of us, and Reno and Callan were more like jump in and talk, and then Michael and I were more sit back and just listen. And then it was an uneven distribution of sharing. So we decided to create this structure, and that's why this structure exists. And I think Michael and I prefer to have that space where we can just talk and not be like, you're having to jump in or people jumping in. So it just made me think of that, like. Cause I was like that in my family, too. I was kind of shy, and I was, like, never the one to, like, fully assert. I'd always kind of hang back, and I was okay to just listen. And in most cases, I'm pretty okay to just listen. So that's interesting. [00:12:15] Speaker C: Reno does a really good job. I remember in those early days, I remember if you guys. I didn't, I didn't. I was not comfortable doing the podcast in the early days. And Reno, I remember you specifically, would jump in and say, michael, tell us what you're thinking. Like, you would do a really good job of doing that. So thank you, Reno. [00:12:29] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, Reno's good at including. Yeah, I like what you said, reno, about, you know, like, self disclosure and really, like, it's about disclosing to yourself first and really, like, you know. Cause sometimes we can be in denial about things or we can, like, have these kind of layers of things that we're, like, blocking against seeing in ourselves. And I live my life by the five principles of authentic relating. And the third principle is own your experience. And the fourth principle is reveal your experience. And it's important to own your experience first and kind of be with it and get clear about it, so then you're not projecting it onto people. If we don't own our experience and we just jump into revealing it, it's easy to lead into projection and I find that it's interesting too. I think self disclosure for me has led to a lot of beautiful things, but one of the things that it's led to that has been a little bit challenging is people projecting onto me. So for example, they'll like, listen to my shares in my videos or on this podcast or even in my sessions. They'll sometimes people haven't worked towards maybe some of the things that I have and they'll see the way I'm negotiating with this part of myself and they aren't negotiating with with that part of themselves in the same way that I am. And that can cause like dissonance for them and then they project. So it's something that I'm very mindful of and I'm sure I do that too. I think we all have blind spots and we're all kind of projecting onto different people's projectors at different times. So yeah, it's interesting, but I want to share a story of something that just happened to me. So I just started, I haven't run a workshop online for my highly sensitive people for two years. I just haven't been feeling it. But I just started one and it started on Wednesday this week and I had, they used to be two and a half hours long. I decided to create them to be 3 hours long cause they felt a bit rushed before. So we're working and it was supposed to be 430 to 730 and we're going along and I started all of a sudden for some reason I had seven in my mind. So I'm like thinking, I'm like oh my God, time's going by so quick. So I started like going through and kind of like rushing the material and things like that and then go to start landing the plane at 07:00 and wrap up and no one said anything to me and I'm thinking like no issue. So then we wrap up and I send out an email to the participants afterwards and I always include my email in there and I'm going and I'm looking and I'm like I don't see the email coming through. I'm like what the heck? So I go into my email system and it says 730 that the email is supposed to be sent out and I'm thinking oh my God, I totally ended the workshop 30 minutes early. So immediately a wash of shame comes over me and I'm just like what a knob. I can feel my inner critic totally starting to get activated and I'm like okay, I got two options here. I can pretend like it didn't happen and never bring it up. And I know everybody knows, but we just won't say anything. Or I can disclose and reveal my experience. So I have everybody in a WhatsApp chat. So I go in on the WhatsApp chat, shared a video, and I'm just like, oh, my God, I can't believe this happened. I'm so sorry. I'm just, just owning my experience. And then pause afterwards. 30 minutes goes by and my inner critic is still running wild, and I'm like, oh, my God, I'm beating myself up. So I get on the video again and I just share some more and I'm just revealing the things that are coming up for me. And keep in mind, my workshop is called authentic relating and empowerment. So I'm practicing these principles of revealing myself and revealing what's coming up for me. But, yeah, it was just really interesting, like, how these parts of me, so a big part that I don't like to disclose is, like, failures or not getting it right, I think. So these feelings or these experiences lead to inadequacy for me. I always feel inadequate, like I did something wrong or I'm wrong if I make a mistake, which is kind of pointing me right now into, like, I have an interesting relationship with my inner critic and I'm really, like, reconciling and working with this part of myself. So I think that's a big one. And then the next one for me would be fear. So growing up, having trauma in my life, I learned one of my biggest protectors became fight and just to really kind of shell off and put high walls up and these sorts of things. So I never wanted to show people that I was scared and especially in my intimate relationships. So for me, in order to have successful intimate relationships, I have to reveal my fears and share them with people because they otherwise, they run wild and then I end up acting them out. They play out in my relationship if they don't get talked out. Um, so I just, for me, that's, like, probably the biggest one that I, that I need to really always be mindful of is sharing these parts of myself with people that can hold that, I should say, because I'm not just going to share my fears with somebody that can't hold that with me. And, um, because I think when, you know, some, in some instances when I've shared my fears, um, with somebody that can't hold that, they, they freak out. They're like, I don't know what to do with this. And then it leads to, you know, me feeling rejected, them feeling like they can't, you know, they're not good enough because they can't hold that. So it's, you know, it's kind of a fine art, right. I'm finding and I'm learning, and I'm I'm a, I've learned that it's really about trial and error. I've overshared and over disclosed at times, and then I've undershared and under disclosed at times. And I'm kind of finding this, like, nice sweet spot in my life of, like, you know, how to share, when to share and with whom to share, I think, is, are three really important things to always be mindful of. [00:18:10] Speaker B: So I want to piggyback on something you just said, Matt. I remember I was in a, I had this pattern in relationships where about two months in the, I would experience this sort of guttural nausea, and I would completely shut down and go from being totally attracted and enamored with the person I was with to just almost repulsed by them. And I couldn't understand why it was such a confusing experience for me. And I just thought I was destined to play this out again and again because I had no knowledge at the time of, you know, what was possible. And I remember the first time I disclosed it, what you just described happened. It was like, I didn't know that this person couldn't handle me disclosing what I was experiencing, because for me, I was simply sharing what was there. It wasn't reflective of us breaking up or something like that. I was just like, I need to say what's here because it's so big and so present, and, you know, it felt necessary to kind of talk it out. He ended up really taking it personally, you know, and I had to reassure him that it wasn't about him. And. And then I remember in my, in the relationship that followed, I shared it again, or what happened was it was coming up, and the person I was with inquired of, and they did so compassionately, and that was such a remarkable healing for me because they were available to help me kind of work through this thing in our relationship, and I ended up overcoming that pattern and being with them for, it was a record for me. A record. Two and a half years. I went from two months to two and a half years, um, because they were able to hold space for my share, you know, so it's really beautiful. I love that you shared what you shared, and it really is. There really is something to selecting, you know, who you disclose to. Yeah. [00:20:30] Speaker A: Yeah. I want to piggy, piggyback. I think you just really made me have an epiphany. It was really cool because I need that in a relationship. Like, I want to be kind of, like, drawn out. I don't want to necessarily have to always be drawn, like, and I've never met a guy that draws me out yet, and that's probably why I haven't been in a relationship that's been like, okay, this is my person. I've always felt like, like, this isn't quite what I'm looking for. Like, but I'll hang out here anyway. So. Yeah, thank you. Because I'm going to lead with that now and be like, I want you to ask me lots of questions. I want you to draw out. Ask me what my fears are. Let me, you know, like, and let's work through it together. Because I find sometimes I'm like, like, sharing things, and I feel like people aren't interested. They don't want to. [00:21:20] Speaker B: We're good at drawing and sharing, you know, you, and we're good at drawing at other people, and we're really good at sharing, you know? [00:21:27] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:21:27] Speaker B: But I agree with you. [00:21:29] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Thanks for anything you want to piggy, piggy, piggy. [00:21:34] Speaker C: Back on michael, I actually just thought, well, I mean, yes, I actually just thought of a recent example. So I'm here in, in puerto vallarta, meeting lots of people and, you know, usual small talk. What do you do? Where you from? Blah, blah, blah, blah. Guy, the one that sticks with me, kind of is similar to what you had said. He asked me questions like, oh, and this is your fourth time here. What is it about puerto vallarta that keeps you coming back? Those kinds of questions. What are you drawn to? Obviously, you're very drawn to this place. What is it about that? Is there a specific memory? So I will say people who are interested in you, genuinely, obviously, that feels good. That feels good to us. Like, oh, this person's interested in me. But that doesn't always mean you have to share. I'm not saying that you have to, you know, give into that, but I will say that it does feel nice. And, um, I mean, if we could talk about another topic on dating, we can get into that another day. But, uh, what's that saying? Uh, instead of worrying about being interesting, be interested. I think we've used that before. Yeah. [00:22:34] Speaker A: Yeah, I like that. I always say in authentic relating, they say people become interesting when you become interested. [00:22:40] Speaker C: Exactly. Yeah. [00:22:41] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:22:41] Speaker B: Well, it's beautiful because then there's always space. You know, it's like, if I'm interested, if you come in interested and I come in interested, then there's just constant reciprocity, you know, as opposed to, like, oh, well, you know, they got to go first. Right. It's like, let's both be interested, you know? Let's both be available. Yeah. [00:23:04] Speaker C: I bet you in our line of work, we probably do that a lot more easily and maybe more than other people, just because we're used to it, right? That's just what we do. [00:23:12] Speaker A: Yeah. I've had some feedback on, like, dates and things where people feel interrogated. [00:23:16] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:23:17] Speaker A: Because I'm like. I'm just. This is what I do for a living. I talk about deep things for a living. So, like, I. When I ask a question, like, I'm like, oh, you could answer, like, with the most horrible, traumatic thing, and it wouldn't even faze me. You know what I mean? Like, so I. But I think I've had to learn how, like, that people. Most people aren't like that. So I have to, like, draw that back in and be like, okay, take it slow, Matt. Like, you don't need to ask, like, the most intimate questions right away. [00:23:39] Speaker B: That's why I love hanging out with you. [00:23:41] Speaker C: I was at a pool party here, and everyone's, like, drinking. Have a good time in the pool. And then I'm just chatting with this one guy, and he starts talking about, like, you know, this book he wants to write. He's like, oh, I've wanted to write this book my whole life, and I haven't been able to. And immediately I'm like, oh, why not? Why do you think that is? Like, just. But it's so natural to me. Like, I really, truly want to know why. And then we got into this whole conversation, just the two of us, in the middle of this pool. Everyone else is just on another level. We're having this very intimate moment, which I love. I love. Like, I'd rather be doing that with him and finding out what is the block behind why he hasn't written this book that he allegedly loves so much. Right. It was a very good conversation. [00:24:14] Speaker A: Yeah. You should offer life coaching. Pool side. [00:24:17] Speaker C: Yes, guys. [00:24:18] Speaker A: Hundred dollars for ten. [00:24:19] Speaker B: Yes. [00:24:20] Speaker C: Oh, my gosh. I'm into it. [00:24:22] Speaker B: This is it. [00:24:23] Speaker A: Make money while you're on holidays. Yeah. [00:24:25] Speaker C: This is where I live now. I'm gonna have to figure that out. There's a pool right behind me. You can't see it, but there's a pool behind that chair. Yeah. [00:24:31] Speaker A: Yeah. I was gonna say Michael's backdrop is not a green screen, by the way. That's a pretty epic. [00:24:36] Speaker C: It's real, my friends. It's all real. [00:24:41] Speaker A: Okay, next question. What fears arise when you practice self disclosure? Reno. [00:24:49] Speaker B: Yeah. That I'll be alienated, exiled, alone, cancelled, harmed. That I'll experience loss or rejection? Definitely. I remember when I came out, I was terrified that the whole world was going to, like, implode, right? That I was going to lose everyone and everything. And then when I came out as spiritual, you know, I was like, oh, no. Like everyone's going to think I'm so weird, right? Because I'm into the spiritual stuff. And then, funny enough, when I started going back to church again and I was like, really curious about the Bible and scripture and God and, you know, like, that was really edgy too, to say that out loud. You know, I was like, oh, no, now, like, all my friends who identify as spiritual or all my friends who identify as, you know, queer are like, going to alienate me because I'm into God or I'm into church, right. And I'm going to lose everybody. When I came out, it was the opposite. It was like, oh, all my religious, christian, hetero friends are going to. Right. There was that. And then, and then even I would say I'm not big into politics, but even in these moments where, like, I connect to certain conservative political views, right? Or. Yeah, I mean, there's so many things I can think of, but it's like there's always this fear. If I just close this, you know, I'm going to be exiled, I'm going to be alone, I'm going to be canceled. And even in these moments where maybe there's something I don't understand and I'm not going to get too deep into this, but world issues. Like, world issues and really big significant discussions, whether it's some of the wars that are happening in the world or things surrounding identity, religion, politics, if I fear sometimes that if I express that, I don't know or I'm confused or I don't necessarily agree with something in this moment and that that could change, right. There's this sense that, like, people will promptly jump down my throat or just like, cut me off, right? And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa. You know, let me just, let me just reveal what's happening for me, you know, before you make any assumptions about who I am and what it all means, you know? So I think there's a lot of that there. And I could go, I could go on a tangent about, you know, all this canceling business and stuff, but I won't. But my God, it's like, oh, so, yeah, that's. That's my answer to that question. Yeah. [00:27:51] Speaker A: Thanks, Bruno. Have we ever done a podcast on cancel culture? [00:27:55] Speaker C: No. [00:27:55] Speaker B: We should. [00:27:58] Speaker C: We might get canceled for it. [00:28:00] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:28:02] Speaker A: We'll practice what we preach. Thanks. Reno. I wanted to ask you something. [00:28:06] Speaker B: Yeah? [00:28:07] Speaker A: Have you ever struggled with people pleasing in your life? [00:28:10] Speaker B: Oh, big time. Yeah, certainly. Certainly. Wanting to be liked, wanting to be loved, wanting to be praised, wanting to be viewed as. As good and virtuous, you know? Certainly, yeah. And doing a. Doing whatever was necessary to be viewed in that way, even to the point of dishonoring myself and what was true for me and aligned for me, you know? [00:28:44] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I thought so. And I resonated with your share, I think. Similarities there. [00:28:50] Speaker B: Thanks for asking. [00:28:52] Speaker A: Thanks for sharing. [00:28:53] Speaker B: What about you, Michael? [00:28:54] Speaker C: Yeah, what fears arise? Everything you said, 100%. So all of that. Yeah, that really resonated with me. I would say at the beginning or not the beginning. In my younger days, maybe there was a lot of that fear of judgment and criticism. And then, as I said at the beginning, can this be used against me? Because information is power, and so people will have information about me. Will they use this against me? Can they use this against me to emotionally manipulate me, you know, blackmail me, whatever that is. That was a lot of it at the beginning. That has dissipated to a big degree because of the nature of the work we do. Like, you know, we're here. I've been doing this for a few years on my. On my instagram. I certainly say some things that ruffle some feathers. So I've just gotten used to it to that degree. I would say more these days, what fears I have is the. The vulnerability hangover. Did I overshare? And then once it's done, it's done. They're like, oh, fuck, I can't take it back. Why did I do that? Why did I say that? I should have said that. People are going to think it feels very raw, it feels very overexposed. I say, oh, my humanity is showing. People can see my humanity. They can see the pain, the imperfection, whatever. So it's not just about the judgment and criticism that comes with it. It's more so like the shame, almost like I did something wrong. Like I did something wrong by sharing that. A few. I don't know when this is going to get released, but a podcast I did with my ex now still feels right to say that. And we talked about the end of our relationship and why we came to that decision. And sort of it was, you know, enough time had passed that we were ready to talk about it. But still, when that podcast was released, people who are on my email list know this because I told my subscribers, but I wanted to pull the episode. I wanted to just like, take it down. And I had another one ready to go so I could just have easily replaced it and just said, fuck it, I'm not doing this. I don't want to do this. I don't want to do this. I don't want to do this. That was very much a vulnerability hangover moment because I thought, this is too much, I'm over sharing. Like, why am I letting people into this level of detail or why did we. It was a choice we both made. Um, so I think that was it. Uh, and I had to really go through that. And one of the things we do with vulnerability hangovers is this is very common in like men's groups and sharing, right? Like I, I run a men's group and one of the first things we talk about is what is a vulnerability hangover? What does it feel like? What does it sound like in your mind? Which I kind of just did. Now, I should have said that. I wish I didn't say that. I wish I could take that back. And why are we having it? Why are we experiencing this, like, deep shame from sharing, which is supposed to be this thing that connects us? So I had to kind of practice what I preach in that moment. And that was probably the hardest of all the podcasts I've done so far on the show. That was that, that was the hardest one for me. And I really did, up until it was released, I was like, I'm just going to pull it, I don't care. But I didn't. So I think that's been the hardest thing is like, knowing like Matt, you were talking about that line, like, sometimes it's too much, sometimes it's not enough. Like sometimes it feels very, very close to that too much line. And what ive learned, how ive dealt with it in my own mind is I kind of ask myself some questions, like how have I processed this situation, whatever it is, enough in my own mind, do I feel clean about it here? Even if its a painful situation, do I feel clean about it? Do I feel clear? Do I feel like, okay, this is something that happened? Yes, its painful, but can I use that and am I ready to use that to let people in and show them around, so to speak? Uh, so that it could potentially help them. It could potentially, uh, give them some hope or give them some insight or something into for their own lives. Not for me. It's not about, like, look at me. It's more so, hey, here's the situation that's happening. Feel free to use this and take what you want from it and use it in your own life. So that's kind of the criteria that I go through now. And in that moment, we did it together. So my former partner and I sat through, sat there and said, okay, are we ready to do this? Like, here's. And we said, here's what we're going to share. Here's what we're going to share, and here's what we're not going to share. We're not going to go into this level of detail, which is like an iceberg right into our relationship. What we shared was, like, this big versus what everyone else, what is behind closed doors? And so being very deliberate about, okay, what am I willing to share and what am I not willing to share? What's the line there? And then just making sure you stick to it. But that's. I'd say that's my biggest fear now, is the oversharing, the vulnerability hangover that comes with it. [00:33:31] Speaker B: I have a question for you, and I also have a statement to make. So one of the things that I've noticed in reality television is actually the thing that got me. So I'm a shameless Real Housewives fan. I love the real Housewives of Beverly Hills. And one of the things I noticed is that surrounding reality television culture, there's, like, everyone wants in, right? Like, you. You give them some and they. And they, like, they want it all, right? They're like, we give it all to us. So even when cameras aren't rolling, they're like, what's going on in your personal life? And do, do, do, do. And it. My experience is that there's this, like, feeling of entitlement to, like, your whole life and your whole world because you've given people a little taste or a little inside look. And I really just want to say that, like, you know, just because we get on here every week and share what we choose to share does not mean that, you know, that, like, we owe. We owe the world everything. And all of us, you know, it's perfectly acceptable that you just shared some portion of the iceberg. I think that that's okay. And if and when you're ready to share more, then you will. And if that's never, then that's okay. You know, I really don't think that we owe it to anyone to share everything, you know? And sure, that's a. That's a nuanced statement. I'm sure there are different. You know, there's. There's certain situations where maybe that. That that idea could be challenged a bit. But overall, I think, yeah, it feels important for me to call that out. This sort of sense of being entitled to all of us and all of our lives, and it's like, no, no, no. We need some for us. We need to keep some for us. Right? So the other thing I wanted to ask you was, why did you share, if I may, why did you share that? Because that's so powerful and vulnerable that you chose to. [00:35:42] Speaker C: Good question. We did it because as we were going through this breakup, we both said to each other, like, wow, we've gone through breakups before, but nothing like this. And it was very different for me. It was a new experience for me. Nothing has happened in this relationship. Usually there's an event, a triggering event that causes a breakup, and people part ways, and that's that they walk each other, delete each other, la la la ladae. And for him, it was very much the same. But that does not at all what happened. And so while it was actually happening, I was going through a lot of my own growth and my own. I was going through my own stuff. And as I was doing that, I was like, this is really important lesson for me, how to say goodbye was kind of like that era of lesson for me, how to say goodbye, how to know when to say goodbye. In the episode, I talked about, you don't have to end something because it's gone bad or you don't have to destroy something to end something. You can come to a very peaceful, beautiful goodbye, and we don't always get that option. So I had learned a lot about goodbyes, and I thought, you know what? This is really important stuff, because so many in gay relationships, I find it so hard to meet other gay guys, right. For friendships and whatnot. If we have someone in our lives who we love genuinely and care about, what so often happens is in a relationship, we kind of stick with it and then it deteriorates and then ends up getting resentful and whatnot. But that doesn't have to happen. It could just be a case of, you know what? You're not my forever person, but I love you still, and I want you to be my forever friend, maybe. And so that transition, I had never really been able to do that before. So that was. That was the reason why he felt the same, and it was actually his idea. Fun fact. His idea is to do the episode, not mine. [00:37:24] Speaker B: This is so. I love that you just shared that. Thank you. Because I didn't know, you know, I definitely. That I made an assumption that it was your idea, mainly because, you know, the nature of our lives here is that we're often open and sharing. Right. So I thought, surely Michael initiated this, but. Wow. [00:37:43] Speaker C: Yeah. Thanks for asking, though. [00:37:46] Speaker B: Mm hmm. Thanks for sharing. Yeah. What about you, Matt? [00:37:52] Speaker A: Hmm? Yeah. There's so much percolating. I'm trying to think of which direction I want to go here. Yeah, I think, you know, this podcast, it's like, you know, we kind of structured it to be a shared, lived experience podcast. Like gay men going deeper. Like, we talk about ourselves. We talk about, you know, our life experiences, and we share them, and. Yeah, I feel. I feel what you were saying, michael, for sure. Like, I've been emotional on the podcast, and then I have these hangovers after, and I'm like, oh, my God, the release date. And, like, we're, like, two months ahead now, right? So I've got to sit on this for, like, two months knowing that, oh, my God, everybody's gonna know I'm crying about my inner child and shit like that. So it's like. And it's interesting because when that episode aired, like, a lot of my clients watch it, and one of my clients messaged me and was like, you know, it's really. I was really uncomfortable seeing my therapist in that position. And I was like, oh, like, that was such a pain for me. I was like, oh, like, that's, like, the worst thing that somebody could have said, you know? But I'm like, I needed that because I was like, what it did is it reminded me of my humanity. And I think what I've been going through for the last few years, it's like, so much humility. I've met humility in its deepest, deepest way because of a deep amount of suffering and things that I've been going through. So I think, again, if you look at a vulnerability hangover, it's the ego feeling a little bit bruised or wounded, and it's like the vulnerability hangover, like, transforms into humility. And I think it's, like, such a gift, you know? So thank you for sharing that. I just went to an authentic relating training. It was the leadership training. It was a seven day retreat in Costa Rica. I was really struggling when I had left. I went on a personal leave from work. I took five weeks off. So I got there and I was just like, and I had signed up for this like six months prior, thinking, oh my. Six months from now I'll hopefully be feeling better. I really wanted to do this, but I wasn't. I was actually feeling worse. So I get there and I'm like, fuck, there's like 30 people and I'm feeling like crap. And like, I'm like watching everybody bond. And then I was doing, like, I was observing, like, they call it a hologram or a pattern coming up. I'm like, I'm going to be over here and you guys can be over there and I'm just going to watch. And, you know, so I was really noticing some wounding that I have around belonging and letting myself belong. And it started to bring up a lot of emotions for me. And throughout the course of that week was very emotional. Every share that I had, I was, like, crying and, like big heavy crying and I was releasing a lot and purging a lot. So I was meeting vulnerability hangover after vulnerability hangover and then again, more humility would come. So, yeah, I actually wasn't going to share this, but I didn't even associate the two. Like, you know, the fear of self disclosure is the aftermath of my share. I never actually thought about that. So thank you for bringing that to my, into my realization. But I think just to kind of answer the question directly, I would say, well, I kind of grew up thinking, like, being gay. If I disclose this to my family, they're going to think I'm weird or disgusting or deviant or these sorts of things. So there was this thing and then I've kind of had this, I don't know, karmic experience throughout my life where, like, I am the person in the room or in the group that will say the things that other people are thinking but don't say. And it's caused a lot of people to, again, project onto me or be like, this guy's weird or like, we don't want him here because he makes us feel uncomfortable things or whatever it is. And this happens in my family as well. I kind of have felt a little bit black sheepish in the family and I've had family members even describe me as weird and things like that. So it's like, that's been a big thing for me. So this notion of being weird or different has led to me having fears around, like, being rejected, feeling that I'm too much for people or that they won't know how to support me because I do know and have been given feedback on being very intense. My energy is very intense and I carry a lot of momentum into connections and things like that. So there's this feeling that I've had a lot of my life of being misunderstood. And so I'm always really hesitant. And that probably is related to the belonging. Like, why I hang out over here and watch is because I'm like, I'm worried that people are going to think that. Think all these things that I just, that I just said, right? Like, he's weird. I don't understand him. Why does he make me feel uncomfortable? Like these sorts of things, so they come up. So I'm always really mindful of that. And I'm like learning now that it's like. And this was related to my inner critic. I have to get my inner critic in check because once my inner critic is in check, it won't matter, right. Because what this all is is this is, these are judgments that I have of myself. These are perceptions of my own reality. And I'm projecting them into the container, right. In that situation. Like, if I share these, people are going to think I'm weird. Well, I have to think I'm weird in order for that to even become a problem, right. So there's a part of me that thinks I'm weird, that doesn't understand or feels that I'm not good enough or whatever it might be. So I just know that this is, and this is kind of where I'm at right now. And it's likely been a big contributor to, like, my depression and the things that I've been going through is my inner critic has really being. Being challenged right now and like coming to the surface and like being ready, like preparing to be healed likely. And it's like, it's just been such a crazy transformation, but yeah, I know that's a big share, but it's like, it's just, yeah, it's real. It's what I'm going through right now. So. Okay, the last question, Mister Reno, how has self disclosure positively impacted your life? [00:43:40] Speaker B: Yeah, there's, you know, one thing I want to start with is there's, there's this scene in the movie eight Mile with Eminem and he shows up to a rap battle. And in these rap battles, the name of the game is to come in with ammunition, right? Michael has referenced a few times like, will this be used against me? And so the name of the game is to come in with ammunition and kind of use it against your opponent, right? And so Eminem comes into the rap battle, and instead of coming armed with. [00:44:30] Speaker A: With. [00:44:33] Speaker B: Ammunition and information about his opponent, he comes in and reveals everything about himself that his opponent could possibly say. Yeah, I am white. Yeah, I do live in the trailer park. Yeah, my girl did cheat on me. And he just lays it all out in this really beautiful and poetic way through rapid. And when his opponent goes, when it's his opponent's turn to speak, he's choked, as they say in the rap battle arena. He's got nothing to say. And I just thought, what a remarkable moment. And it stays with me to this day, because what I've come to realize is that when I disclosed the very things I'm most afraid of, people knowing about me are saying about me. And I face that myself, of my own choosing, of my own sovereignty. I'm liberated. I am liberated. And so, yeah, self disclosure has, like, it's made me more courageous. It's made me more compassionate. Right. There are people who I used to judge and who I had trouble relating to. And as I disclosed myself and came to terms with myself and connected with myself and was rigorously honest with myself, it was like, oh, the cheater or the. Like, the. I'm trying to think of other examples, but, like, you know, all these people who are infamous, like, I could begin to have compassion for even them, you know, anyone I had previously judged, I could have compassion for, and especially myself, you know, I became more empathetic. I became more understanding. I became more intuitive. I became more clear. You know, I've become more stubborn and abundant as well, which is surprising, because that is not the story that my mind and my ego would have me believe. It's like, oh, but you won't be powerful, but you won't be in control, but you will be alone, but you will be without. I have gained so much and more every time that I have disclosed, right. And the things I feared would happen have happened at times, right? Like, a couple of my best friends from high school. They're not my best friends anymore. You know, I came out, and that changed things. Right? So I'm not suggesting that what we fear won't happen. It has. But in some ways, it's been the greatest gift. Yeah. I have to sit in the discomfort and the anguish of maybe being exiled alone, whatever it is, for that moment. But what happened on the other side of that was I gained things far greater than what I lost. You said this earlier. I think my self disclosure has become this filter, and it's like, if you're a fit for me, then. Who I am and what I share and how I'm being, it will not be too much, you know, will not merit canceling or exiling. Right. And so now the people who are in my life like, they're meant to be, because I am being authentic, and they are drawn to this authentication, authentic version of myself. Right. And so that's what I've gained. The right clients, the right partners, the right lovers, the right friends, the right opportunities. You know, all of that and everything else can just kind of fall away. It's okay that you aren't meant to be in my life. It's okay that that opportunity is not meant for me. It's okay that I'm not meant to work here. That's fine. You know? Yeah. [00:49:05] Speaker C: Nailed it. [00:49:07] Speaker A: Yeah. I want to share impact of that share because it really hit me in a really good way. There's one word that I sum up your share. It's like, relatability. And that would, I would say would be the biggest impact that you've had on me in this whole, whatever, four years that we've been doing this is. I find there's a relatability. So, whatever. However many episodes ago, it was where you forgot what you were talking about, like, middle sentence. It's like a great fear of mine, and, like, to see that you handled it and you just revealed that experience. You disclosed it. It was like something happened with my inner critic, and it was like. Because my inner critic's perfectionistic. Right. It, like, doesn't want to get anything's wrong because it doesn't want to feel inadequate or, like a failure. And what happens when I see people, like, revealing themselves is it's like, it makes them relatable, and then it's like, it softens my inner critic, and it's like, okay, see, like, because my inner critic's the young. It's a very young part inside me, and it's like. And it's like, okay. Like, we don't have to have it all together. Like, we can be. We can fall apart, we can be messy. We can admit that we're wrong or that we're whatever. So, yeah, I just. I appreciate you. Thank you. Yeah. [00:50:18] Speaker B: Thanks for sharing that. I'm touched by that. And that word. I will carry that with me. So important. Relatability. Thank you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:50:28] Speaker C: That was a great show. Reno again, just, like, last one. I love everything you said. I want to just underline it and underscore it all. It was perfect. I was thinking as you were talking, that this episode could easily be called coming out because self disclosure is coming out. Right. You had talked to Renault about coming out as gay and then coming out as spiritual and coming out as all these things. And that's what it is. And if you think about it, coming out, is that liberation that you talked about. It's like, ah, this thing is off my shoulders. I can. I can come out, I can talk about it. I can disclose this about myself. So think about all the ways that, you know, maybe you're not out. Like, all the ways, like, you need to maybe come out a little bit more. So this dropping the perfectionism thing, you're dropping the something about you that you feel like you. You want to come out. And how good that maybe felt when you came out of the closet as gay or with whatever sexuality, sexual orientation you are. There's relief in that, just as there can be relief in coming out in many other ways. So I just like that. That is a very nice tie in. And anyone who's listening to this, maybe who doesn't really know what self disclosure means, think of the concept of coming up. That might really help you. Um, I mean, I don't want to repeat everything, you know, said, but everything Reno said, that's been the biggest benefit. Uh, and how it positively impacted my life. I will say again, going back to men's groups, and we do this in the GMB zoom hangouts on Thursdays, we see it there every month. And then in my own men's groups, and I'm sure in yours as well, when people come together and they share something, it doesn't have to be the whole thing, doesn't have to be the whole enchilada. Even if you just share a little bit, which is what I recommend, starting with a. It feels good. It feels relief. You get the burden off you, and other people get to see your humanity. Oh, yes, my humanity is showing. And that is a good thing, because there's that r word again. It makes you relatable. It makes you easier to connect with. Remember at the beginning, I said when I didn't disclose much and I was very shy, people thought I was aloof and snobby. Those are not true. Not that I was just shy and scared or insecure, but as you say that, as you disclose some of that, this is how I'm feeling right now, showing up in this group. It makes you relatable. The weight is lifted off you. And then all of a sudden, then you can all of a sudden start sharing a little bit more easily, but more authentically, because you're not hiding behind that mask anymore. The mask is gone. At least a little bit. So I will say that I have seen this happen in all of our sharing circles over all the years we've done, and it's such a beautiful thing. I love seeing men, especially, gay men especially, do that. Drop the perfectionism a bit. Drop the mask. Say, listen, this is what I'm insecure. This is what I'm insecure about, about my body. This is what happened to me in my ex, and this is what he told me. This is what the messaging I got from my parents was that I'm not good enough, that I'm whatever that was, and everyone else gets to say, oh, wow, like, that's. That must feel terrible. And also sometimes, oh, me too. I'm not the only one. Oh, that's so nice to hear that I'm not the only one who had to go through that. That I'm not the only one who experiences pain or shame or loss or grief or despair. Take your pick. And that is that common humanity. It's back to that thread of relatability. We're all in this together. We may be very different, come from very different backgrounds, but we have that emotional experience all the same. I have pain, you have pain. We all have pain. We all have insecurity. So I think that part of disclosure has positively impacted my life personally. But I have also seen that and facilitated that in other spaces as well. Yeah, actually, one more thing I want to add. Sorry. Reno had talked about abundance, and I would say, the more I talk candidly about the things that I give a shit about that piss a lot of people off. Sex, spirituality, whatever, money, it pisses a lot of people off. But guess what? Clients come rolling in, they're like, oh, my God, Michael, I heard what you said about blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I needed to hear that. You're the guy I want to work with. All this stuff happens. And you, Reno, you had said it is actually abundant, and not just in a business sense, but even in a personal sense, it is that filter. It truly is the best filter. [00:54:36] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a great segue into what I wanted to share. So thank you and well said. You articulated that so beautifully. Yeah. The odd time I would say, like, I don't know, over the course of my career, maybe ten times, people have written on my work, like, oh, my God, why would you share that? This is stuff you share in therapy, not publicly. Like, I get these comments and I can understand where they're coming from, for sure. But what I would say is, I would challenge that because I think that's an old paradigm. It's an old paradigm from, like, the fifties when it's like the nuclear family and sweep everything under the rug. Don't tell your neighbors that we have, you know, that dad's an alcoholic and, like, all this crap, right? And it's like, I think we're breaking that. Our generation is breaking that paradigm of, like, no, we don't want to be silent anymore. We don't want to hide in shame. And so I'm a. I'm a huge proponent for self disclosure. And I think it's important. I think it's important to, like you said, it bridges the bridge between humans. It's like, ah, okay. I'm not actually flawed and broken and something's wrong with me because I'm having thoughts of whatever, suicide or these sorts of things. Like, we need to be sharing these things so people can see that we're human, right? So, yes, I love that you said that. And then I wanted to share, like, a little mini story, because for me, like, the question is, how is self disclosure positively impacted my life? So, my last long term relationship, we both had a similar attachment style. We both were scared of certain aspects of intimacy. And there was an incident that happened. We got into an argument, and I started to notice my ego starting to come forward and wanting to gaslight and wanting to change perception and make him not see that through this lens. Because it was self preservation. I was in self preservation because I didn't want be seen as scared or I didn't want to be seen as inadequate. So because I chose to hide this, it led to this giant mountain of conflict. Okay? So we went our separate ways, didn't talk for a couple days. And in this time, I, like, softened my ego. Softened it. Came back down from hell hill, and it was like, okay, I need to practice. And this is when I also came forward and started doing authentic relating. So I, like, I got to reveal this. I have to own my ego, and I have to reveal my ego. So I sat down, I did a lot of writing, and I, like, wrote out all the things, all the little games, all the little things that my ego does to try and protect me from feeling scared, which is the main one, or inadequate or shame or anything. And I started to, like, just really get clear about all the little games that my ego plays. I sat my partner down and I shared all of them. And it was very scary for me. But what it led to was it led to a great amount of intimacy and it led to my partner being able to support me when these things come up as opposed to being triggered by them. Right. Say this young part, our egos are usually very young. This young part in us is just trying to survive, trying to preserve or to feel safe. So can you talk to my ego? Can you talk to my young inner child part? When this is coming up, I think that's the birthplace of a solid relationship, is when you can bring forward your trauma, your ego, all these parts, and let your partner into this, this world. And I'm telling you for myself, like, it really mitigated a lot of conflict being able to do that. So that was a big thing for me. So I would say the biggest thing that came out of that was greater intimacy and greater humility, obviously, on my part, because it was really humbling to bring forward those parts of myself. [00:58:28] Speaker B: Yeah, I've seen that be really beautiful in our community, too. Like, yeah, sometimes people are up in the comments and stuff, you know, whether it's like us sharing, you know, this. These conversations on YouTube or, like, a post in the community. Yeah, occasionally you're gonna get some, like, troll in the comments, saying some bullshit, but also, like, I've just seen our community be so supportive as well when. When we share. Like, I put out a post the other day, you know, and it was somewhat vulnerable to share and just that outpouring of, like, love and support and like, ah, yeah, me too. I get this. I totally feel the same way you do. Thanks for sharing this. You know, it's. It's remarkable. Yeah. [00:59:14] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. I would say 95% of the comments that we get on YouTube are pretty positive for the most part. Yeah, yeah, there's the 5%. But, hey, that's going to be on everything. And I think YouTube's the worst for trolls. So if you're only. If you're only hitting 5% on YouTube, you're doing pretty good. So, yeah, keep the love coming, folks. And if you want to give feedback, give it. Give it with tact and grace. Not like to tear people down. [00:59:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:59:38] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:59:39] Speaker A: Hmm. Any final thoughts from you two? [00:59:43] Speaker B: I love this episode. This is one of my favorite. I say that. I say that about every episode. I think you have every episode. Yeah, probably. But it's just so good. I love it. [00:59:52] Speaker C: We're going to do a little montage of clips and reno every episode. This has been my favorite episode. [00:59:56] Speaker A: But you always say it after, when it's just the three of us together. So I'm glad you said it. [01:00:00] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:00:01] Speaker A: No, I was like, that's my favorite episode. Yeah, it was, it was super juicy. And I want to just thank you, too for sharing your wisdom and your vulnerability. Like, wow. Like, yeah, you really, I feel let in and I feel also seen, so thank you. [01:00:15] Speaker B: You too. I feel like this, this episode, what we've, what we've been up to here, what we've discussed is like, like you said, it's the essence of the gay men's brotherhood. It's the essence of gay men going deeper. [01:00:27] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:00:27] Speaker B: And it's like, it's like what brought us here, as you shared at the beginning, Matt, you know? [01:00:33] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I just want to point out that we have connection circles, so come and practice this. So we come into a big group and then we offer questions or a little mini teaching, and then we break off into groups of three. And you can do what Reno and Michael and I do, and you can share and practice intimacy and vulnerability with your fellow brothers. So come and join those. And then if that's not up your alley, then you can come the last Thursday of every month to our GMB zoom hangout, which is a sharing circle, not a connection circle, where we're still going to get connection, but it's more like the person, one person shares, everybody's listening and you're just kind of getting more relatability maybe than connection. So, yeah, lots of opportunities for connection and relatability in our community. So take advantage of that. If you're not in the Facebook group already, join us on Facebook at Gay Men's Brotherhood gaymansbrotherhood.com courses. All of our resources get on our email list there because people on our email list get first dibs for all of our opportunities. And if you're watching on YouTube, leave us a comment. We love getting your comments. We love seeing what you're up to and hearing what you're up to. And if you are on listening on your favorite podcast platform, please leave us a rating, five stars preferably, and a review. We need reviews because reviews are really what push us up in the standings. So people, it gets into more ears of people that need this. So that's what we're all about. We get a lot of emails almost daily now of people being like, wow, your podcast has helped me so much and, you know, transformed me. It actually was encouraged me to get into therapy or all these different things. So, you know, if you pushing this forward, leaving a review, different things sharing the episodes. It really. It's helping not just us, it's helping other people in our community. And our main mission here at the brotherhood is to elevate the consciousness and the opportunity for meaningful connection in our community. So what? [01:02:30] Speaker B: One of my straight friends told me he listened to our podcast, and he's like. And he said it helped him, too. It was really cool. That's awesome. [01:02:38] Speaker A: Yeah. We're talking about life stuff, not just gay stuff, like gay men specifically, but it's. Anybody could benefit from the stuff we're talking about. [01:02:46] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:02:47] Speaker A: All right, well, we'll see you all next week. Much love. Bye.