[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:08] Speaker B: Welcome to the Gay Men Going Deeper podcast, a podcast by the Gay Men's Brotherhood that showcases raw and real conversations about personal development, mental health, and sexuality from an unapologetically gay perspective. I'm your host, Reno Johnston. And joining me today is sacred intimate advocate, poet and conscious erotic embodiment leader, Mark Fleming. Welsh queerdo painter, writer, facilitator, and loving disruptor, Keone Wales, and black Canadian queerdo facilitator and artist, Jordan Lane. Today, we're talking about Pride. As we know, it's Pride Month. And this Pride Month arrives at a time when, because of the current state of affairs, we are being invited to reflect on where and how Pride began, where it is at, and where it is going. These are perhaps questions we would all benefit from reflecting on each and every Pride season.
With its roots in the stonewall uprising in 1969, which was sparked by police raids of the Stonewall Inn, hence the Stonewall Rise. Pride was originally manifested as marches. Beginning with the first March in 1970 and continuing into today and expanding worldwide, the marches have since grown to become month long celebrations. And while Pride is indeed a time of celebration and a time to celebrate, it also remains an opportunity for advocacy in support of LGBTQ rights and identity. As we navigate this conversation, we remind you that the focus of this conversation today is centered around the sharing of the personal experiences of each of our guests today, rather than a debate or a presentation.
If you would like to know more about Pride and its specifics, you are invited to do your own research and reach out to your local Prague organization.
What we want you to get out of today's conversation is an opportunity to hear the experiences and perspectives of others related to Pride, to reflect on your own experiences and perspectives, and to consider what you would like Pride to be and mean for you. Moving forward, we're going to be exploring questions like, what does Pride mean to you?
What was your first Pride experience?
How do you experience Pride to have changed since then?
And how would you like to see Pride change moving forward?
And so, without further ado, our first question, what does Pride mean to you? And today, let's start with Keone.
[00:02:46] Speaker C: Thanks, Reno. Thank you very much for having us here. And hey, Mark. Hey, Jordan. Hey, everyone.
What does Pride mean to me?
I feel like the issue of pride is interesting because growing up in a patriarchal, monotheistic environment, you know, being taught that pride is one of the seven deadly sins, it kind of immediately sets you on a back foot with the word. There's a sense that, you know, this is Something out of kilter with what you're supposed to be.
But the rainbow kind of is what I feel most when I connect with the word pride. Whether it's the original six color rainbow, whether it's any of the permutations of rainbows that are continually evolving.
It's this idea of diversity, multiplicity.
Yeah. Transcendence, promise, hope, togetherness and wildness.
[00:03:48] Speaker B: Thanks for sharing, Keoni. Mark, what does pride mean to you?
[00:03:53] Speaker A: Thanks, Reno.
Hi, friends. Well, in musing about this, I. I'll riff a little bit off Kyone as well. Like, I don't know that I'm proud to be gay or that. That it's so much about pride. It's just what I am.
And when I think back to my first pride stuff and all that, there was still the whole thing about liberation, like it was gay or I would think of queer or however we want to say it, liberation.
And that feels.
That feels juicy to me. Like, what do I need to be liberated from? There's been so much shame, there's been so much stigma. The, you know, patriarchal, the heteronormative stuff. All of that is. I'm not particularly proud of that. I would like to be liberated from that in myself and in my communities. And so, yeah, I think of it as a time like, you know, Pride Month, that I think of that as a time of visibility and hopefully doing work and advocacy and celebrating.
I was a professional gay for decades, so it was always work.
You know, I was always testing folks for hiv.
So anyway, that's probably enough.
[00:05:11] Speaker B: Thanks.
Jordan. What does pride mean to you?
[00:05:15] Speaker D: You know, and hey, y' all grateful to be here. I think for me, what pride means to me is the idea or concept of taking up space. I think in a world that tells everybody that's not a part of the dominant culture, that they are they. That they are not welcome. The concept or idea of taking up space is so important.
And the opportunity that pride provides us with is the opportunity, the intentional opportunity to take up space.
I think that's a graduated journey. I think for people who are early on in their identity, acceptance, like the concept or idea of taking up space seems very overwhelming. It can be.
But now I think, at least for myself, you know, the idea of taking up space is something that I'm conscious of and that I want to do in the identities that I hold. But to me now to.
When I think of the idea or concept of pride, it's the first thing that comes to mind is how much space can I take up? Because it's my time to do that, at least.
[00:06:16] Speaker B: Mic drop moment. I love that.
Yeah. I think when I consider what pride means to me, I think back to what it was like being me as a young one and the courage and the audacity and the vulnerability that it required for me to, as you, beautifully put.
Take up space.
It felt like a requirement. Those felt like requirements. Courage, audacity, you know, especially in environments and in a world that, for a number of different reasons, was not so receptive to or celebrating of my being, my unique rhythm, my unique expression, my unique appearance.
And so even before I understood the concept or notion of pride for myself, I think I was living out what I experienced to be its essence. It's sort of raison d' etre. Like, it's. It's, you know, and then discovered this word and its background in history and the purpose it serves, so to speak. And I was like, oh, that's me. That's what I'm up to, you know, and that's what we're up to. There are more of me. Us is, you know, and that is a whole other conversation. But I would say that's what pride means to me, you know, and continuing to live audaciously, vulnerably, courageously, authentically.
So. Question 2. This is a fun one. What was your first pride experience?
And we'll start with you again, Kim.
[00:08:08] Speaker C: I remember my first pride really Clearly.
It was 1993.
I was finishing the first year at university, and I think university had been such a. Like a luxury and a revelation for me because I wasn't at home. I wasn't in, you know, a fairly kind of emotionally intense dynamic with my woundings and with my mom.
And there were, you know, there were other. Other gay boys. There were other gay girls. There were, you know, and my. My remembrance of that time is that, you know, there was still work to be done. You know, there was work to be done. There was work to be done, that we were the ones to do the work. And there was, you know, there was such a massive disappointment in. I can't remember if it was 92 or 93 now when, you know, the proposed bill to equalize the age of consent for sexual adults in the UK was defeated. And there was a sense that, you know, that there was still this. This ongoing inequality between, you know, when straight people were visible, when straight sex was valid and permissible. And then, like, I'd broken the law. We, you know, everyone I knew who, you know, by that point had had sex with someone else, which was everyone. We'd all broken the law. So, you know, there was a sense of, you know, we're going somewhere.
And the march. What was that? You know, the Pride march was the time that we went and we interrupted and we disrupted and we. We called. We called for it. And, you know, and I.
So it's so in my heart, because it has been repeated even now with the last Pride I went to in Swansea, which, know, is one of those, you know, there was only. London was the place where you had pride. You went to London because that was where pride happened. It wasn't universal, but I remember going into the park at the end of the march and, you know, there were people on the outskirts with buckets, and you were invited to give what you could.
And even if that were just, you know, like a quid or a couple of quid, and it was kind of great. And also, it was like Hazeldine was there. And. And that was a huge thing because, you know, Hazel Dean had been in the charts saying that, you know, she's looking for love. And there was a.
You know, I'm still really good friends with a lot of the people who. This is my cat, by the way, if you can hear the sound of meowing with the people, you know, who. Who marched together.
[00:10:50] Speaker B: And.
[00:10:51] Speaker C: And I guess. Yeah, I guess the requirements have shifted and grown and evolved, and there is still work to do.
[00:10:58] Speaker B: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that.
Mark, tell us about your first Pride experience.
[00:11:04] Speaker A: All right, so my first Pride was, I believe, 1979, like, 10 years after Stonewall, and I had moved from South Dakota to the bastion of liberalness, Phoenix, Arizona.
And it was going to be the first Gay Pride march in Phoenix.
And so there were a group of us.
It was a long time ago, so different things are getting mixed up in it. But we.
Some friends of mine and I, we decided we would be people who would help people go along the route. We'd, you know, have bullhorns, whatever it is. And so the week before Pride, the police escorted us down the route.
And I remember being like, oh, this is so cool. This is so cool. And then one of the police pointed up to a building and said, well, that's why you should watch for snipers.
And I just remember thinking, wow, snipers.
And this thing of.
Well, I think probably we all have different versions of this. The vulnerability of my body for, like, Jordan, as you said, taking up space.
I was a partier back then. A pretty big party or so. The actual parade, I remember, and not so much after that, I think I got pretty loaded. But it was kind of amazing to march and be young and alive and in my body and with other queer people and.
And have the march with still. The fear that I felt, I think way early on of something about me could get me killed and still, like, you know what? Fuck it, I'm. I'm gonna march and play and dance and sing and celebrate, and I still had to get kind of loaded to do that.
[00:13:07] Speaker B: I just want to take a moment to acknowledge what you just said there. Something about me could get me killed, because I think that that's really powerful and, you know, sobering in a way as well. Like, it's. I think because we're so skilled at resilience and sort of making the best of, you know, what we've got to work with and taking up space despite.
In some ways, it can be easy to kind of. I don't know, like, that gets left out of the conversation in some cases, or, you know, we set it aside so we can sort of carry on and live. But it. But it's really there, you know, and so I just wanted to bring attention to that. It's so big. It really landed with me when you said that, like, wow, that is a reality for us that isn't for many others. Right. So, Jordan, tell us about your. Your first Pride.
[00:14:09] Speaker D: Yeah, I was actually. Keoni and Mark were saying the, like, years that their first Pride was, and I was like, I don't remember the first year my pride was, but I think it was either 2011 or 2012.
And I remember, like, knowing about the Pride Festival and not feeling embodied in my identity enough to want to be there. And so I remember the first year that I went.
It was a myriad of experiences, I think, you know, to tie into what Keone said about there still being work that needed to be done. You know, I can't necessarily relate to going. Going to Pride in 1993 or even to Mark in 1979, but as somebody who went in 2012, there was still work to be done. And so I think that was.
To a degree, I went, and maybe this is a. People have a similar experience, but to a degree, I felt like, oh, when I go to the Pride Festival, everything is going to be all right. And like, heavy quotation marks from a perspective that, like, oh, I get to be around people who share my identity and their. There's some semblance of community and connection. And I think in that first instance, what I learned was just a reminder of my perspective of how I understood the world. To work at that point, whereas it doesn't matter what environment you're in or what identity people hold. Like, the labor of work is still there and it still needs to be done. And so even with the strength of shared community experiences from people that I was surrounded with, I realized that I still. The container doesn't absolve the work.
And so it was really refreshing and really empowering to be around people that had the identities that I had, because I felt seen and recognized and acknowledged. And it didn't feel like my presence was admonished by the general people in attendance and simultaneously was experiencing those social and community aspects that were glaringly needing work and attention.
[00:16:20] Speaker B: My first Pride experience was an interesting one, and I had to go back and sort of look at old Facebook photos to remember, like, what year it would have been. And I think it was about 05 or 06, maybe somewhere. Somewhere between 2005 and 2006, 7.
And I was about 19.
I think I'd come out. And if the math isn't adding up, it's probably because I'm just. I've got the wrong year or something like that. But it was somewhere around that time, and what was interesting is I had just come out to a group of friends, I think, and I was at a club with one of my girlfriends, and we were spotted on stage dancing.
And this woman came up to us and she said, have you guys modeled before? Do you guys model? And I thought, this is so strange. But, like, you know, I think at the time, not really.
And so she invited us to some designer's home that weekend to meet him, and it turned out that he was looking to dress some folks and put them on a float for Pride. So the year I had come out was the same year of my first Pride and my first Pride. I was also put on float by one of the producers of the Pride Festival in Winnipeg, Manitoba. And so it was just really interesting. I. He sort of designed this outfit, and I remember it was.
It was this tank top. This, like, bright, if I remember correctly. Yeah, it was like this bright metallic tank top with, like, rainbow tie dye. And then it had, like, these tight boy shorts with the rainbow elastic strap as a whole look. And he put her in a ball gown and put us up on the float. And, you know, it was a lot of fun.
And I think even at that time, I didn't really fully understand the importance of what I was participating in.
But what I did get was that it was a celebration, you know, that it was a celebration, and that I was so free to be me. And so much so that I'm on a float sort of parading through downtown Winnipeg. And it's a celebration.
And I think for a young 19 year old in that position, especially having sort of come from what I'd come from previously, like, it was a really special and significant moment. And I think what's important to say is it didn't end there. Like, it wasn't like, oh, yeah, the celebration. And everything was sunshine and daisies from then onward. Right. In some ways it was out of the frying pan and into the fire, you know, because as we know, being in our community can sometimes be tricky. There's all sorts of interwoven politics and things like that. Right. And so I, I say that to say, like, yes, there was this beautiful moment and it was amazing. And also, you know, there was what was to come. So, yeah, that was my, my first Pride experience.
Keoni, how do you experience pride to have changed since your first Pride experience?
[00:19:37] Speaker C: Money, baby.
Oh, she got the money.
[00:19:41] Speaker B: Now.
[00:19:43] Speaker C: I remember, like, probably somewhere between Reno, your first Pride, and Jordan, your first Pride. I remember going to a pride in London. You know, late 90s, we've been living in London for a bit and suddenly, you know, after the parade, after, I mean, it was still quarter march. Then after the march, we, we, you know, trogged up to Finsbury park and there was a massive fence. Now, you know, Pride wasn't just a group of people in a park. Pride was now contained.
And, you know, it would, it would cost you some dollars to get in, like. And we were like, oh, my God, £15. £15. What? I don't think I realized, or maybe we intuited something beginning then, but I think for about a decade in the noughties, Pride in London, you know, started becoming all crazy kinds of shit. There were lots of stories about people organizing pride and then. And then drag queens running off with money. There was a lot of like, we're not having pride anymore because everyone keeps mopping up the money and fleeing with it.
But by this point, like, Manchester was having, you know, Mardi Gras, Brighton was having pride. Pride had no longer, was no longer just a singular event. Pride was becoming, you know, a much wider, broader church. And then when I remember pride returning to London, which was my. It was probably there before, but my memory of being back in London in 2017 and there was a massive. There was a massive parade.
This was no longer a march. This was a triumphal procession by capital taking up, suddenly, visibly taking up all the space and the banks, the supermarkets. And it didn't feel like.
It felt less of a revolt and more of an accession or an assumption. And I remember being back in Cardiff and going to my first pride more recently, three years ago, and the first thing I saw was a row of tanks, which was fine, because they were being piloted by. By quit. By gay people, by lesbians, mostly by lesbians. But, you know. And so here is the knot that I find myself, like, moving, like beads on a rosary, which is between, you know, isn't it great that there is now a month? Isn't it amazing that there are prides everywhere? Isn't it great that there is such a, you know, movement to highlight for myself, certainly, the blindnesses that I had when I was young and the areas that I didn't see into, the trans experiences, the experiences of people of color, you know, this is. This has also changed.
And at the same time, what are the tanks doing?
What am I celebrating? That all of these companies that are marching through the streets are still run and owned by white men.
And so, you know, if I'm proud of anything right now, with what I'm seeing of pride, it is the people saying, queers for Palestine. It is the people who are refusing to condone homonationalism or any kind of blindless corporatization of our genders, our sexual identities, our bodies, our fragile bodies, as you've all so beautifully attested to the vulnerabilities that we have in this place. And that gives me pride to know that people are going, no, it's not enough.
It's still not, not enough.
[00:23:18] Speaker B: Mark, have you experienced pride to change since your first bread?
[00:23:23] Speaker A: Thanks, Ky, by the way. That's lovely.
Much ditto.
And I notice in my body, I'm having a little shame about this, so I'm just going to name that.
I think what. How it's changed for me is that in the beginning, it was small, it was communal, nobody wanted to sponsor, was, you know, a freak show in the best way, a freak show. And it was a place where people really, even though there was always infighting and backbiting, people showed up and everybody showed up because there was just one thing. And then I think over time, it's changed. The thing that I was feeling shame about, which I'm not proud, is much of my experience with pride.
I worked in decades for public health around HIV and STIs, and a lot of my memories of pride are really colored by AIDS and by, you know, people who are on their last legs being there. And pride was a place to really look at loss.
A generation, maybe more than a generation. And it was also a thing where I think, in a way, you know, an act up got in this and all of that. But communities came together. Gay men in particular, white CIS men, are not particularly the nicest people sometimes, and they're dropping dead, and lesbians show up and other people show up. And I think there was a community that came out of that. That came out of some vulnerability in populations who usually have a ton of privilege, even though there's a lot of wounding. And so, you know, thank God there's meds and all of that. And assuming we in the states anyway, there continues to be prep and all of that, let alone pride.
I think that what has changed is that there's the big corporate stuff, although again this year, I think in the states that may be different. And then the kind of. I think probably 10 years ago, maybe even a little bit more than that. Like, well, probably 20 years at least. In Seattle, like, there was the Dyke March, there was the trans March or marches where, I mean, once I wasn't a professional gay, I just was like, okay, I don't have to work.
I'm not gonna go. But the other ones felt like how it used to be. And I. You know, there's. There's the. There's the nostalgia for how it's used. Used to be, even though some of it was completely up and not true.
You know, nostalgia has its own filters. So, yeah, there's still lots of work to do.
[00:26:13] Speaker B: Thanks, Mark. And I think we'll have a chance to talk about that. More work to do in the next question. Now, Jordan, how would you say you experience pride to change since your first pride?
[00:26:29] Speaker D: Yeah, I think my first pride was not small. It was big and glamorous and corporate and visible and spacious and to a degree, very, like, cramped and populated. Overwhelming. And I think, although I don't have the nostalgia for it, I do resonate with Mark's sentiment for smaller prides. And I think.
I don't necessarily know if this is a change, but this is something that I've observed and how I kind of sit with pride now is that each of those has a function. I think we are coming into a space in social climate where the general majority are not absolved of the queer experience. Right. They understand that it exists. They understand that they have proximity to it. They understand that there's a high likelihood that somebody in their close circle, whether they know it or not, have that identity. And so the way That I see it, the larger, louder corporate prides are the ones that are designed to really inundate the general public and offer a opportunity for access and education.
And what I've found lately is that a lot of the straight people that I know are like, oh my God, like, you should come to Pride with me. And I'm like, no, no, no, you should go to Pride because that's your work.
I'm going to go to the small little gatherette that's happening with all of my queer family because that's where we celebrate. You can go do your work over there at the big corporate Loud and spend all of your money because that's what you should do. And then I'm going to go celebrate with my family over here because that's what I need to do. Right. And so now this, those smaller, you know, quote unquote free gish, but really wholesome. And I feel a higher sense of validity in my identity and in all the quirks that come with that in those spaces. And so that's where I feel like I truly thrive now in those smaller, in those niche, in those, you know, off to the wayside Pride festivals where, you know, you only maybe have. You don't have thousands of people, but everybody in that community is there to show up for each other and are there to celebrate each other in all of their, all of their authenticity, all of their shortcomings and blessings. And yeah, that's where I feel most activated in Pride now. And so I feel like having that sentiment and perspective really allows me to come to parades that are offered or Pride festivals that are offered with a stronger sense of clarity and distinction of what to expect and what I can expect and what, you know, then I can also offer that possibility for other people of what they should expect when they go.
[00:29:12] Speaker B: Thank you, Jordan. This word nostalgia keeps coming up. And I think the word that, the other word that came up for me was, it was gentrification was interesting to sort of consider. Yeah, like being nostalgic for the earlier years when I first began experiencing pride, that Pride celebration.
And also I noticed as a, as a young one, I was nostalgic for a time that I wasn't even alive in as well. It was always interesting. Like I would hear and see things about the 70s and it seems strange to say that because I know that perhaps me being me at that particular time, like, it wouldn't have been so glamorous and so romantic perhaps. Right. Like I'm. I well aware of the fact that, you know, speaking to What I think you said earlier, Mark, like, it isn't always as pretty and cool and what have you as it seems. And I'm. I'm aware of that. And yet I think this piece around gentrification is like, the piece that really stands out to me, that there's a certain, like, I'm looking for words, but I'll say, like, grassroots vibe to the movement and the ways in which it popped up and showed up.
I'm even reminded of, like, the radical fairies, for example, in my first fairy camp recently, and how the sort. Organically you see this sort of weekend come together and how community centered it is.
And I want to speak sort of figuratively, but it's like twigs and string and whatever you can kind of find and bring together in this really magical way. And suddenly you've got this beautiful thing standing up and it's amazing.
And then, you know, and then it comes down and everyone was a part of it, and you just see this magic happen.
And I think that in some ways it's unfortunate, but I feel like that magic is lost as it pertains to pride. You know, like, not lost completely, but diminished. Diminished, I would say, is the word. And I'd like to see that be different. And I think something that came up recently in the conversation I was having on the topic of pride is that.
And I think we'll talk more about this in the next question, but I think it could be more radical. You know, I think it could be. It's weird because on the one hand, I think it could be. It could be more. And on the other hand, I think it could be less, you know, And I think it speaks to some of what was covered here where it's like, can we sort of return to the community centric aspect of it and maybe localize aspects of it and sort of leverage that in a way. But, yeah, yeah, I would say that's how it's changed since then. And then, like, lastly. Yeah, I think it's become a whole lot more queer, and I really want to see more of that. You know, I think that's a. That's a beautiful aspect of it that I really appreciate is that it's. It's become more queer. And I don't even think I knew what that word meant for ages. And when it showed up on my radar, I thought, oh, this feels right and this feels revolutionary and this feels radical and this feels yummy. So, yeah.
Keoni, how would you like to see pride change moving forward?
[00:32:57] Speaker C: Yeah, I just want to acknowledge what Jordan said, because that really touched me. And I want to shout out to Cardiff where even though.
Even though three years ago they had the fucking tanks.
What has happened is that the corporate pride, let's call it that the official pride, has been kind of marshaled into the castle, which I find deeply symbolic, given that this is a structure, you know, empire and control.
And that's where you have to Pay, I think, £20 now to get a ticket. But then on the other side of the river is the queer picnic. So, you know, there is this other place which is full of the queerdos and the, you know, and I play in a sambo band and we. We lead the pride parade. And even though we are leaving the pride parade, we don't get allowed free entry into the. Into the castle. It's still got to pay. So, you know, I mean, the picnic is where we. Where we're at. The three things I would like to see for pride. Okay, so there are three. The first thing I would like to see is the young boys. The young. When I say young boys, I mean like 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21. When I was marching in the Swansea Pride last month, queerly not in June, the one demographic that walked at the side of the march that we passed, that didn't smile, that didn't wave, that didn't find any cause to celebrate, were these young, late teen, early 20s, white boys. They were. Were stone.
So I want to find the way for them to be reached, because there are things inside them. There is the feminine inside them. There is softness, tenderness, vulnerability. There is this which is the root to the power they're looking for, and they are not being told it, and they are deaf to it, and they are being told to be deaf to it. And I would love pride in the future to find a way to. To seduce them into dancing and cheering and celebrating this world, because they are part of it. The second thing I would like to see is for the energy that I think is so brilliant amongst the queer across the world and the energy that has grown with the pride celebrations to realize that there is something ancient and potent about carnival and that it is a disruption and that it is a usurpation, and it does turn the world upside down. And a global carnival that summoned and seduced every part of the world to dance and play and love and reconnect in community for one day might be exactly what we and the planet all need. So I am here for that. And I think pride, like the Caribbean Carnivals, like the Notting Hill Carnival, like Carnivals all over the world. We are the seed holders for that potential massive transformation. And the third thing I'd like to see is flags. Why they all got to be so straight?
I'm here for the colors. I live the colors. But, you know, like, can we wave it up a bit?
No bangs, Straight lines.
[00:36:21] Speaker B: Oh, my God, I love you.
That's so good.
So good. Thank you, Mark.
[00:36:31] Speaker A: The word that came to me was chameleon or shapeshifter. And that I think that. I mean, I think lots of humans have to shift their shape around a zillion things.
And I guess, like, my prayer would be, could I. Could other people be there without having to shift their shape? Could they actually.
Could I actually be authentically without a mask?
Unless the mask is what I really need, or I choose to put it on or off, unconscious about it. I would love to see whatever would allow that, because I think it takes a lot of work to be who we truly are.
It can be an uphill climb. It can be gorgeous, and it can also be exhausting. And I think if there are. I'm somebody who's had a lot of roles in my life, and roles have been a place where I've had a lot of comfort because I could just have my shape be the role, and maybe I'd fill it out, and maybe I wouldn't.
And so it would be just interesting to see what. What a celebration of pride or queerness would be.
Everybody got to be who they were, which just in my body, when I'm feeling into that, it's so discordant. It's just like, what the fuck would that be?
Kind of what you were saying, Keone? Like, it's a disruption of so much.
Daniel, too. I feel like I am in my most nonlinear today, so I think I'm just gonna cut it there.
[00:38:12] Speaker B: We're here for Nonlinear. Mark.
[00:38:15] Speaker D: Jordan Keoni, I really appreciate your disdain for the pride flag and the straight lines that it carries, because that's about as straight as any of us are. So I feel like it is quite ironic that the pride flag has straight lines. So I'm going to rally behind that. I'm going to second that motion for sure. And, you know, I really resonate with what you're talking about, Mark, about the chameleon shapeshifter and really letting that go. And I think for me, what I'd like to see change for pride moving forward is the idea or concept that, you know, the way that I move through my life, you know, pride is, you know, a date A week, a month and a calendar.
But I think the wide scope, long term practice is to embody those in our everyday moments. Right. Like can we the prideful self that we want to see ourselves be during Pride Week or at the Pride Festival when we're at work? Can we do that when we're with our friends? Can we do that when we're in public at the grocery store? You know, and I think the thing that I try and remind myself as I move through the world, you know, like Mark said, we are familiar with the idea or concept of shifting or changing to match the environment that we're in. And sometimes that's a safety function. And I'm not going to dismiss that and I never will.
And can we bring enough consciousness to our way of life and our way of moving through the world so that we can bring our authentic selves in the spaces where we can afford the risk of it and embody that? And so I think by nature of our. That is an inherent practice to the queer existence, but it's not an inherent practice to people that don't have that identity. Right. Most straight people don't consider how they respond in environments because most environments are designed for them, them. And so when they are faced with a situation, position where they consider challenge coming to the, their entire world is shaken. And it's like, okay, girl, like, I'm just asking you to be a little bit reflective. I'm not telling you, like take entire house apart. I'm not telling you to burnish the ground. I'm just telling you that maybe you should consider a different color. That's all. I'm not trying to. You know, that entire process is revolutionary for somebody that's never been reflective of how they move through spaces for decades of their life.
So to see what changes in pride is that instigates that thought process.
More people, we don't share identity because the more that will be reflected. How they respond in environments will cause shift of how we'll respond. Right. Right now, during a lot of the labor for how things are navigated in this heteronormative world because it's designed and that operating by design. Right. There's no in that it is by design. And if we can see that labor shift become more equitable, that I think pride has opportunity to be a that. And so that's I would like to see.
[00:41:18] Speaker B: Thanks for sharing, Jordan. Yeah. Because of the particular time we find ourselves in and the way the world's changing and evolving.
You know, I used the word gentrification previously. I think what, what's really alive for me right now is the word radical. Like, I would like to see pride become more radical in this moment in time. And I, I don't know what that looks like specifically, but I have also been thinking about how we gather as community.
You know, I've heard people in fairy circle, for example, bring up subjects like, I believe it's mutual aid, but I think what I'd like to see is it be it still be a celebration and a recognition of the past, the present, but also really looking at the future. Like, how do we reclaim our, like fully reclaim and leverage our power, our, our human resource, our financial resource, our network resource, etc, and, and sort of sit down and brainstorm different ways to like, advance as a community in a really sustainable way. And I guess if I were to be more, even more specific than that, I think it's like, can we leverage pride as a time to, I don't know, like rainstorm or even. For example, I have this crazy idea where for an entire day or even a week, if it were possible, like, everyone just agrees we're on the same page, that we're not going to use certain apps, we're not going to shop. We're only going to shop local. You know, like any of these big corporations that continue to benefit from us and, and explore this and, and exploit the planet. Like, we just pull back completely. You know, we're not shopping at your stores. We're not. You don't get a dollar, you don't get our attention. You don't get like nothing from us for this month or week or day or whatever.
So, you know, I start to think more radically like that, like, how do we leverage this month or this time, you know, this period in that way to really go, we're here, we're queer, don't with us, you know, and I don't know what that looks like, but I love the idea of really exploring that. And then I think the, the second thing would be, yeah, I think Keoni touched on this earlier, but just how do we, how do we engage with and engage the youth, you know, and what does that look like? You know, what does that look like? I want to hear them. I'm interested in what they have to say, you know, what is pride to you? Does it matter to you? What do you know about it?
What could it look like to you? I'm really interested in maybe understanding them a bit more and whether this thing even occurs to them or not and in what capacity. So, yeah, I would say those are the ways that I would like to see change moving forward. And I probably missed some, but. Yeah.
So I guess in closing, I want to say, like, this is a much larger conversation. And, and so, you know, may it continue among friends and fellow kudos. May it continue in the Gay Men's Brotherhood Facebook community. May continue wherever you are, wherever each of us is. And also, I just want to take a moment to say again, thank you so much, Mark, Keone and Jordan for being here today. I very specifically selected, you know, from a number of different people. I selected the three of you because I really value who you are and the perspectives that you bring to the world and the space that you take up and the way that you take up that space and also provide it for others.
And so, yeah, I celebrate you. I appreciate you for being here and for participating in this conversation.
Yeah. Thank you. And to our listeners, thank you to our guests. Again, thank you to our viewers as well. We'll see you all at our next event. And, and we invite you to check out our website for everything
[email protected]'s brotherhood.com.
and until next time, we wish you pride. And not necessarily happy pride, just pride, whatever that means to you.
We'll see you next time.
[00:46:12] Speaker D: Sam.
